Annuals ... More Harm Than Good?

Tom-D said:
Doesn't say anything must be done by the IA
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Ha. Are you bringing back 50 Question Fridays again? Of course it doesnt mention IAs. Why should it? It doesnt mention APs either.;)
 
Tom-D said:
Appendix D to Part 43—Scope and Detail of Items (as Applicable to the Particular Aircraft) To Be Included in Annual and 100-Hour Inspections
(a) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall,

Doesn't say anything must be done by the IA
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Legal Definition of "Shall": In common, or ordinary parlance, and in its ordinary signification, the term 'shall' is a word of command, and one which has always, or which must be given a compulsory meaning; as denoting obligation. It has a peremptory meaning, and it is generally imperative or mandatory.

And from the FAA:
Until recently, law schools taught attorneys that "shall" means "must." That's why many attorneys and executives think "shall" means "must." It's not their fault. The Federal Plain Writing Act and the Federal Plain Language Guidelines only appeared in 2010. And the fact is, even though "must" has come to be the only clear, valid way to express "mandatory," most parts of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFRs) that govern federal departments still use the word "shall" for that purpose.

https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/plain_language/articles/mandatory/
 
Bell206 said:
Ha. Are you bringing back 50 Question Fridays again? Of course it doesnt mention IAs. Why should it? It doesnt mention APs either.;)
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Weren't we discussing ANNUALS? why talk about A&Ps, or did you change the topic again.
 
Interesting discussion. I see no reason why we couldn’t extend the inspection cycle to 18-24 months instead of the current 12-13. I am guessing the FAA just arbitrarily picked 12 months when they wrote the regulation. Same with 100 hour inspections. Those could probably safely be extended to 150-200 hours. It would be interesting to see if the FAA or the NTSB has any data to support either the 12 month or 100 hour inspection cycles. There certainly s data that support mechanically induced error from repetitive inspections.

For my plane (1991 AG5B Tiger) the book calls for 14 hours for an annual inspection. This is a fixed gear, fixed pitch prop plane. I constantly hear folks brag about $300 annuals for Tigers and other similar planes, and don’t understand how the hell that happens. My A&P/IA flat rates the annual at $1200 and then any repairs or other work is at $85 an hour. My typical annual is usually around $2K. I normally need a set of brakes (differential steering) on at least one side, and some other minor parts for general servicing and I usually have some small upgrades performed if nothing major is found. When it comes to safety,I I will not cut the corner or even round it off. It gets fixed or the plane doesn’t fly. And yes I wrench on my plane from time to time within the allowable limits of the FAR in large part because there are no A&P’s at my home drome (KCOE). So I perform routine maintenance such as oil changes, bulb replacements, etc. I’ve come to the conclusion airplanes are probably was hard to work on as is my wife’s jet ski or some of the modern cars I see. And they are not for old people given you have to sometimes work upside down and usually in a very weird body position. My A&P/IA earns every penny of what I pay him!
 
Lndwarrior said:
I spend three long days doing the condition inspection (annual) on my home built. That's assuming i don't have to fix something. The airplane is 3 years old.

People who have never wrenched on a plane have no real concept of how long it takes. Or the painstaking way things need to be done.

15 hours to do an annual is got to be the bare minimum for an experienced mechanic. No way I could do it in that time on my very simple home built.
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The annual inspection on my Cherokee takes me about 8 hours. It covers everything on the approved inspection checklist, plus a couple of extras.
The 20 minutes spent by the IA is included in the 8 hours.
 
Sinistar said:
I like this topic. I think ripping apart a plane every year seems like overdoing it. Maybe its time for BasicMech (should I trademark that).

Let me change out more stuff like starters, belts, alternators and more (if not all) avionics. Why can't I do my own interior work or painting? I can find a way to weight it afterwards. Why can't I remove and re-install the front seats? Can't I be taught by a simple online course on how to do the 100hr seat rail inspection? Maybe the engine should have a yearly (or 100hr) compression test and prop inspection by someone official. For example, teach me (through ground courses) on how to do as much inspection as possible so that I can sign it off. Make me have to document it with pictures (we all have cell phones). Obviously I would still want motor, prop and rigging changes done by someone in the know.
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They already allow it .... for exp
 
In answer to Jim's original question, or at least the topic, as much as I'd love to be able to push back the condition inspection to, say, 18 or 24 months... no, I don't think it does more harm than good. We always end up with some busy work... for example, I'm going to source some star drive replacements for most of the stainless screws in the airplane, because I'm bloody sick and tired of needing to drill out screws with hopelessly stripped heads. And I'm sure we'll eventually need to replace something or other that we wear out by inspecting it. But I'm glad we found that spark plug boot that didn't have the required tension, and the slow seeping flared flitting at the fuel valve. Eventually both would have made themselves obvious; no one would have likely been injured, but at least we were able to fix them more or less on OUR schedule and not when we were planning to fly somewhere.

Stuff breaks during the normal course of use. Cables stretch, grommets wear through, metal fatigues and cracks, stuff dries out and shakes loose. Better to catch it early.

Besides, if I don't do an inspection next year, how the hell am I supposed to find whatever tool I lost under the floor this year?
 
bluerooster said:
The annual inspection on my Cherokee takes me about 8 hours. It covers everything on the approved inspection checklist, plus a couple of extras.
The 20 minutes spent by the IA is included in the 8 hours.
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We have a IA around that does the same thing for 20 minutes and $300. Annual sign off, does about 6 or 7 in a day, good money for little work sounds good. Of all the things in aviation that will kill you 20 minute Annual inspection would be at the bottom of the list.
The FAA wrote the Annual inspection requirements a long time ago Rag bag aircraft with cotton fabric, now most aircraft last forever with little or no upkeep. Do we still need the Annual inspections probably not, but it's a good money maker for a 20 minute Annual.
 
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WannFly said:
They already allow it .... for exp
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Indeed. Due to my 4-seat mission I'd love for MOSAIC to expand mx coverage and inspection authority to fac builts. Otherwise I'd be there already [EAB], at least on the mx front. I like the E-LSA allowance for non-builders to gain inspection authority with a training course for repairman-inspection; that would be another addition to MOSAIC I'd like to see extended for EAB non-builders. Or we can split the baby and take the long course to attain the same inspection authority as currently allowed for S-LSA.
 
brien23 said:
We have a IA around that does the same thing for 20 minutes and $300. Annual sign off, does about 6 or 7 in a day, good money for little work sounds good. Of all the things in aviation that will kill you 20 minute Annual inspection would be at the bottom of the list.
The FAA wrote the Annual inspection requirements a long time ago Rag bag aircraft with cotton fabric, now most aircraft last forever with little or no upkeep. Do we still need the Annual inspections probably not, but it's a good money maker for a 20 minute Annual.
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Otherwise known as a bottom.feeder. I have had to fix the results of that BS. No thank you.
 
Appendix D to Part 43—Scope and Detail of Items (as Applicable to the Particular Aircraft) To Be Included in Annual and 100-Hour Inspections
(a) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall, before that inspection, remove or open all necessary inspection plates, access doors, fairing, and cowling. He shall thoroughly clean the aircraft and aircraft engine.

where does it say the inspector can delegate anyone anyone can it.
 
brien23 said:
Do we still need the Annual inspections probably not, but it's a good money maker for a 20 minute Annual.
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Curious. So by your comment you approve of a 20 min annual, or is this how you do one?
 
Bell206 said:
FTFY. Here's one reference on this topic. There are others.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/Data/interps/2015/Amalong - (2015) Legal Interpretation.pdf
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as long as the IA mechanic is performing the inspection.

From the letter.
Except for the actual annual inspection of the items listed in part 43, appendix D, the listed items are maintenance items that may be performed by persons authorized in 43.3. As the Sweat interpretation letter makes clear, an FAA-certificated mechanic may perform the same inspection items during a 100-hour inspection under the appendix, but the inspection privileges for an annual inspection are reserved for the holder of an IA.
 
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brien23 said:
We have a IA around that does the same thing for 20 minutes and $300. Annual sign off, does about 6 or 7 in a day, good money for little work sounds good. Of all the things in aviation that will kill you 20 minute Annual inspection would be at the bottom of the list.
The FAA wrote the Annual inspection requirements a long time ago Rag bag aircraft with cotton fabric, now most aircraft last forever with little or no upkeep. Do we still need the Annual inspections probably not, but it's a good money maker for a 20 minute Annual.
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Many times the IA has already completed their inspection, and the IA is simply competing the paper work.
lots of times I have waited for customers to finish the button up prior signed off.
 
Tom-D said:
Appendix D to Part 43—Scope and Detail of Items (as Applicable to the Particular Aircraft) To Be Included in Annual and 100-Hour Inspections
(a) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall, before that inspection, remove or open all necessary inspection plates, access doors, fairing, and cowling. He shall thoroughly clean the aircraft and aircraft engine.

where does it say the inspector can delegate anyone anyone can it.
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If we are going by the exact literal meaning of the wording, a female cannot clean the aircraft.
 
A Cherokee I look after takes about two full days to inspect, which includes general servicing, but not any defects that I find. There are always the things the owner mentions that "aren't a big deal", like leaking struts and stiff trim. Some things can left, some not like a trim issue.
 
brien23 said:
now most aircraft last forever with little or no upkeep. Do we still need the Annual inspections probably not, but it's a good money maker for a 20 minute Annual.
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I wish that was true, and so do a lot of other experienced mechanics. We've seen what gets ignored in quick-and-dirty annuals, the enormous cost of replacing things that would have been easily repairable a few inspections ago, and the heartbreaking bills the customer gets. Most often it's the guy that got such a good deal on this here airplane. Nice new paint and upholstery, too.
Guys who do such cursory inspections are liable if that thing crashes and the investigators find that the accident was the result of some obviously defective component or system that should have been caught at the last inspection. I didn't want sleepless nights over that. Some mechanics have been cutting corners so long that their consciences are shot.
 
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JAWS said:
Otherwise known as a bottom.feeder. I have had to fix the results of that BS. No thank you.
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Inexperienced mechanics and many owners suffer the delusions brought on by wishful thinking. Some of them are used to buying a new car and driving it for five years with nothing more than oil and filter changes. They think--they want to think--that airplanes are the same. They're too young to remember the cars we grew up with, needing maintenance very regularly and often just quitting any old time. Our airplanes are from that generation of technology.
 
I think an annual is well worth while. At a minimum because of the servicing that happens at the same time. Lubing things up once a year should be a minimum. That said these are not that forgiving platforms to caveman style mechanics.

On the CRJ I believe that some of our inspections do indeed do more harm than good. We have one area that’s notorious for tools and other items being left behind in. So now we open it up and go inside to inspect it every single day. Which in my opinion leads to a lot more stuff getting left in there. o_O
 
Bacho said:
On the CRJ I believe that some of our inspections do indeed do more harm than good. We have one area that’s notorious for tools and other items being left behind in. So now we open it up and go inside to inspect it every single day. Which in my opinion leads to a lot more stuff getting left in there. o_O
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How’s your collection of Snap On tools coming along?
 
Personally I feel annuals are a good thing. Especially when you tie down outside all year, as I have for 20+ years. It gives you a chance to open things up in a controlled environment, look at things and truly determine the airworthiness of the aircraft.
 
I've thought of this too..... it does a certain amount of wear and tear everytime a machine is taken apart and put back together..... also increased chances that mistakes can be made... screws mis-torqued, stripped, etc...
but there is a major difference here...planes are designed for it at least to a degree...inspection plates, etc...
 
The FAA has to draw the line somewhere and currently it is 12 months. The are so many variables such as hours flown per 12 months, how stored such as a hangar or tied up like a goat in the weather. Others such as where the aircraft is flown and stored in terms of corrosion risk etc. It would take a book six inches thick and that is a conservative estimate to address and accommodate all the variability in GA aircraft inspection requirements. Other variables are that mechanics aren't created equal even though they are supposed to adhere to the same inspection requirements.

Having said that, I think that an annual does more damage to inspection panels and every other thing, much of it plastic, that has to be removed for an annual inspection. There are many inspection requirements by time in the service manual such as change the oil every 50 hours, or lubricate that every 100 hours. Wouldn't it make sense to have the inspection formally known as an annual and make the requirement at X hours. Again, the variables come into play. I also think that airlines should charge by the pound.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Wouldn't it make sense to have the inspection formally known as an annual and make the requirement at X hours.
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FYI: you can do that now by having your FSDO approve a Progressive Inspection which can be due at "X hours." However, in my experience, you'll be wishing you had your annual back after the 1st part of your Progressive Inspection is due. ;)
 
I think 100 hour inspections would be fair and practicable. I'd say the vast majority of GA pilots don't fly 100 hours in a year. (there are exceptions...not interested in a urine discharge contest) Some planes fly 0 hours a year yet are still required to have an annual.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Some planes fly 0 hours a year yet are still required to have an annual.
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Not really. Part 91 is an operational standard. There is no requirement an annual must be complied with unless the owner wanted to operate the aircraft. I know of 3 aircraft right now that do not have a current annual and they are not in violation of any FAR. Only if you want to operate that aircraft do the FARs require a annual inspection in the preceding 12 months. I've also come across several aircraft that have not flown 100 hours in the past 6-8 years. FWIW, between an annual or a progressive inspection there is enough flexibility to keep any aircraft current per 91.409. Outside of that, just let it sit until your ready to fly it as some people do.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I think 100 hour inspections would be fair and practicable. I'd say the vast majority of GA pilots don't fly 100 hours in a year. (there are exceptions...not interested in a urine discharge contest) Some planes fly 0 hours a year yet are still required to have an annual.
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Then you have the plane go 15 years with no inspection....
 
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