Can a private pilot....

Salty

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Messages
13,413
Location
FL
Display Name

Display name:
Salty
... A) ferry a plane for someone if they don’t accept payment for their time or fuel, or fees, and they don’t log the hours.
B) can they accept repayment of expenses not directly related to the flight IE: food, travel to and from the plane, lodging, but NOT fuel for the plane or other flight related expenses.
C) can they log the time since they paid all expenses of the flight

Applicable regs and how they apply for extra credit.
 
Last edited:
The pilot is being compensated in example B, so technically in violation. 61.113.

There is no compensation in A, and C sounds like a rental.

given only the information presented. ;)
 
The pilot is being compensated in example B, so technically in violation. 61.113.

There is no compensation in A, and C sounds like a rental.

given only the information presented. ;)
How is B compensation? The expenses are not directly related to the flight.
 
How is B compensation? The expenses are not directly related to the flight.
The reg doesn’t use the words “expenses” or “directly related to the flight”. It only uses “compensation”. If you have references that use these other terms relative to private pilot compensation, particularly in an exclusionary fashion, please provide them.
 
Last edited:
How is B compensation? The expenses are not directly related to the flight.
How would they not be? Would you be staying at a specific hotel, or incurring traveling expenses to get to the airplane if it wasn’t for the purpose of flight in such aircraft? Those would be expenses incurred that ARE directly related to the flight and would be considered compensation.

You would legally have to pay for any cost that’s associated with the flight. Otherwise just don’t ask and don’t tell.
 
How would they not be? Would you be staying at a specific hotel, or incurring traveling expenses to get to the airplane if it wasn’t for the purpose of flight in such aircraft? Those would be expenses incurred that ARE directly related to the flight and would be considered compensation.

You would legally have to pay for any cost that’s associated with the flight. Otherwise just don’t ask and don’t tell.
Not a real situation, just hypothetical.
 
Yes, a private pilot can. So can a student pilot. As can anyone if they want to.

You have lost your salinity Salty.
 
How is B compensation? The expenses are not directly related to the flight.
Leaving the aviation specific issues aside, how is someone paying for all your out of pocket expenses associated with providing a service not compansation for providing that service?

The regs are the same ones we refer to all the time, together with the official interpretations and cases we talk about, coupled with a consistent usage of compensation as something of value provided in exchange for a service.
 
Last edited:
I'm assuming good intent by the OP as the FAA's interpretation of compensation is pretty broad and it has changed over the last few decades.

The way I read this, A, B and C are not separate examples but rather progressive pushes of the rules:

... A) ferry a plane for someone if they don’t accept payment for their time or fuel, or fees, and they don’t log the hours.

In this iteration it sounds like the pilot will be ferrying the plane for someone else, while paying for the fuel and any related fees (tie down etc) with no compensation and no logging of the flight time. Correct?

B) can they accept repayment of expenses not directly related to the flight IE: food, travel to and from the plane, lodging, but NOT fuel for the plane or other flight related expenses.

In this next iteration the difference from A seems to be accepting compensation for your meals and hotel expenses, but not compensation for costs directly spent on the aircraft (fuel, oil, tie down fees, etc). Correct?

C) can they log the time since they paid all expenses of the flight

In this final iteration you seem to be asking if you can log the flight time if you paid all the expenses "for the flight" (although you've proposed two different interpretations of those "flight related" expenses). Correct?

----

According to the FAA:

“the key consideration in determining if a private pilot is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft for compensation or hire is whether the pilot’s receipt of something of value is conditioned on the pilot operating the aircraft.”

In this case, you get to fly an airplane, and if you receive any compensation at all toward any of the related expenses, it's compensation.

The "if I don't log the time" distinction between A and C is irrelevant and not productive:
- the FAA won't believe that any more than I do; and
- logged or not it's still experience, and still something of value.

You enjoy flying, right? Experience tends to make you a better pilot, right? Even if not logged that value still exists, so it's the pilots receipt of something of value conditioned on the pilot operating the aircraft.

If the time is logged,it just adds more compensation as you now have hours of experience that can lower insurance rates in general and certainly in type. That would be interpreted as an additional example of a pilot receiving something of value conditioned on operating an aircraft.

The killer in all these examples is that even if you pay all the direct operating costs and travel expenses, you're still getting to fly an airplane for less than it costs to operate that airplane when the indirect costs are considered. That's receiving something of value conditioned on operating an aircraft.

For example, let's say I want you to ferry my Citabria somewhere.

- My direct hourly costs are $30 to $36 per hour, depending on fuel costs and burn, if I just count fuel and oil. Let's call it $34 per hour.
- However, my set aside for annual inspections, regular maintenance, eventual engine overhaul and recovering costs adds another $30 per hour in costs (and if I do not set those costs aside, I'm still losing value on my or my estate's eventual resale of the plane).
- Plus I have $325 per month in fixed hangar and insurance expenses that have to be pro-rated across the hours I fly every month. I average 20 hours per month so that's about $16 per hour.
- From a cost per flight hour perspective, the value of a flight hour in my aircraft is about $80 per hour based on flying 20 hours per month.

The $50 per hour you are NOT paying, could be interpreted as compensation for flying my Citabria.

-----

That said, I don't personally agree with that very narrow interpretation, but then I'm also old school and pre-date much of the current zeal in interpretation of "compensation". Things were just different then.

For example let's say, hypothetically, that a commercial pilot lost oil pressure due to a sudden oil leak in a Seneca on a hot day, had to shut down an engine and could not maintain altitude. Consequently, he had to land on a small grass strip about 50 miles from his home field. A Navajo and second commercial pilot was sent to pick up the pilot and passengers and fly them home. However, the aircraft was still at that field and there was no one available to fly a mechanic out to the Seneca. That A&P was also a multi-engine rated pilot. That A&P found a private pilot hanging out at the airport and had the private pilot fly him to the grass strip in a Cherokee 140. The A&P made a temporary fix to the oil leak and flew the Seneca home and the private pilot flew the Cherokee 140 home as well. That wasn't generally considered to be "compensation" at the time, although the pilot clearly got free flight time.

Let's also say, hypothetically, a private pilot working for an FBO in a maintenance capacity would on occasion, at the request of the FBO owner, on take one of the FBOs Cessna 172s to deliver or pickup one or more cylinders being overhauled by an engine shop about 100 miles away, at no cost to the pilot. That also wasn't considered to be "compensation" as no money was received by the pilot to fly there. The purpose was to transport a cylinder to or from the overhaul shop and care or plane, same thing, the method of transport was incidental. That was closer to the line but also wasn't generally considered to be compensation in that era.

I'm certain none of the above hypothetical examples would pass muster today as times and the FAA's definition of compensation has changed. Once again to underscore it:

“the key consideration in determining if a private pilot is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft for compensation or hire is whether the pilot’s receipt of something of value is conditioned on the pilot operating the aircraft.”

-----


Your best bet would be to ask the FAA for an interpretation with specific examples upon which they can give an opinion. Offices of General Counsel throughout the federal government do not like to give responses to hypothetical situations since a change in one minor detail may be enough to turn something from "legal" to "illegal". They do not want an opinion letter on a hypothetical to come back and be used as a defence against a violation of the CFRs. Consequently, if there is any doubt or ambiguity about the specific details the answer will be based on their most conservative interpretation, which usually means "no".

There is also value in looking at the very limited exceptions that are allowed:

- Private pilots may seek reimbursement for flight expenses incurred in connection with a business flight as long as the flight is incidental to the pilot’s business and the flight does not carry passengers or cargo for compensation or hire (For example many states will provide an private pilot employee reimbursement at a specific per mile rate if they travel for business purposes using their personal aircraft or a rented aircraft).
- Private pilots may share expenses with passengers provided all of the people on board the aircraft are on board for a common purpose, including the pilot, and the pilot pays his or her pro rata share of the direct operating costs such as fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees. Note in this second example that the indirect costs cannot be pro-rated to the passengers share of the costs.
- glider towing is also an exception where private pilots can fly without monetary compensation but still benefit from the flight time.

This may also be worth your read:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...ompensation-the-faa-knows-it-when-they-see-it
 

The AOPA summary was an interesting read.
A: This sentence is puzzling to me: "Compensation can also take the form of accumulation of flight time".
Hypothetically, If accumulating flight time is compensation, than would borrowing a good friend's airplane for a pleasure flight be compensation (even if I paid all the expenses)? Also, there had been a time or 2 in the past when I picked up or dropped off a friend's airplane for him after repairs at a different field for no charge or expense payments whatsoever, but it sounds like this would be considered flight experience compensation?

This AOPA sentence is more ambiguous: "Otherwise, if you get something for taking the flight, the FAA is likely to call it compensation; if, in fact, you get nothing, you won’t have run afoul of the regulations. "
So, if "A" is correct, NO flight can be taken while getting nothing. So can a private pilot use any airplane that he does not own or he is renting without receiving compensation (flight experience)? This sounds like a ridiculous concept, but that is how the AOPA summary reads to me. Heck, even if I were flying my own airplane for pleasure, I am still getting flight experience compensation.
 
The flight time as compensation is the most ridiculous notion ever. It just isn't logical, there are so many flying scenarios where you would be in violation of this that are not commercial operations.

I think it boils down to the FAA knows it when they see it thing.
 
So can a private pilot use any airplane that he does not own or he is renting without receiving compensation (flight experience)? This sounds like a ridiculous concept, but that is how the AOPA summary reads to me. Heck, even if I were flying my own airplane for pleasure, I am still getting flight experience compensation.
If you pay for the flight time, it’s not compensation. It’s receiving something that you paid for.
 
The AOPA summary was an interesting read.
A: This sentence is puzzling to me: "Compensation can also take the form of accumulation of flight time".
Hypothetically, If accumulating flight time is compensation, than would borrowing a good friend's airplane for a pleasure flight be compensation (even if I paid all the expenses)? Also, there had been a time or 2 in the past when I picked up or dropped off a friend's airplane for him after repairs at a different field for no charge or expense payments whatsoever, but it sounds like this would be considered flight experience compensation?

This AOPA sentence is more ambiguous: "Otherwise, if you get something for taking the flight, the FAA is likely to call it compensation; if, in fact, you get nothing, you won’t have run afoul of the regulations. "
So, if "A" is correct, NO flight can be taken while getting nothing. So can a private pilot use any airplane that he does not own or he is renting without receiving compensation (flight experience)? This sounds like a ridiculous concept, but that is how the AOPA summary reads to me. Heck, even if I were flying my own airplane for pleasure, I am still getting flight experience compensation.

The flight time as compensation is the most ridiculous notion ever. It just isn't logical, there are so many flying scenarios where you would be in violation of this that are not commercial operations.

I think it boils down to the FAA knows it when they see it thing.

I agree. As I said above I'm not in agreement with the very broad interpretation of "compensation" that logically follows from the FAA's language:

“the key consideration in determining if a private pilot is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft for compensation or hire is whether the pilot’s receipt of something of value is conditioned on the pilot operating the aircraft.”, given the potential over reach involved in defining "something of value".

The examples I used above, as well as the common circumstance of a friend picking up or delivering an aircraft for maintenance for you, are things that have traditionally not been considered commercial operations, but potentially would now be the basis for an enforcement action.

That said, I didn't work for the FAA, but in 12 years of regulatory enforcement I did see a lot of variation within departments, between regions and even between different teams when it came down to deciding if certain observed actions were legal or not and whether actions were even initiated. In most cases this boiled down to how much field experience the individuals involved had, and whether they were looking at it from a common sense "this is how the real world works" or "this is the obvious intent of the law" approach, or a more legalistic "this is how the law reads and should be interpreted" approach.
 
The examples I used above, as well as the common circumstance of a friend picking up or delivering an aircraft for maintenance for you, are things that have traditionally not been considered commercial operations, but potentially would now be the basis for an enforcement action.
“Now” having started 40+ years ago.
 
If you pay for the flight time, it’s not compensation. It’s receiving something that you paid for.
What if your parents pay for it? What if they pay to drive you to the airport?
 
What if your parents pay for it? What if they pay to drive you to the airport?
If your parents are compensating you for flying, it’s compensation. Most families, however, provide for their children in many ways, possibly including transportation and paying for flying. These are not considered compensation for flying by anyone but you.
 
If your parents are compensating you for flying, it’s compensation. Most families, however, provide for their children in many ways, possibly including transportation and paying for flying. These are not considered compensation for flying by anyone but you.
What if a friend buys you a Groupon for a rental as a gift?

I have serious issues with the faa interpretation on this one. Way too many holes.
 
What if a friend buys you a Groupon for a rental as a gift?

I have serious issues with the faa interpretation on this one. Way too many holes.
Way too many pilots trying to fly for hire and pretend it’s not. Can’t have one without the other.
 
So if a safety pilot is flying with me, and he accumulates hours, but I pay for the flight, is he in violation?
No.
I don't think flying a plane someone else paid for would be either. The only benefit I get, is accumulating flight time. Not something someone can give you. You're earning it by flying, and taking the time to do so.....just as the safety pilot is.

I'm sure I'll be yelling that someday through the bars of a cell, but the only way I could see someone giving you flight time is if they are a CFI and fraud up your log book... which I would never allow......anymore ;)
 
Just pick friends who won’t get ****ed off at you and report you to the feds for illegal flight operations.
 
Way too many pilots trying to fly for hire and pretend it’s not. Can’t have one without the other.

I'd buy that, except for one of the exceptions.

Glider towing is something that is an approved exception where a private pilot with minimal training can be a tow pilot flying someone else's plane at no cost, towing customers in a rented glider.

It not only make very little sense, but it is also one of those activities that does in fact take money out of commercial pilots who would otherwise be needed.
 
I'd buy that, except for one of the exceptions.

Glider towing is something that is an approved exception where a private pilot with minimal training can be a tow pilot flying someone else's plane at no cost, towing customers in a rented glider.

It not only make very little sense, but it is also one of those activities that does in fact take money out of commercial pilots who would otherwise be needed.
Very common in club operations...I tow you, you tow me. I think it makes a lot of sense. Just like acting as safety pilot.

it’s actually a good example of the FAA determining that their interpretation had unintended consequences, and updating the reg to permit what they didn’t intend to prohibit.

Taking food out of commercial pilots’ mouths isn’t the FAA’s concern. If it was, they wouldn’t allow Private Pilots to be safety pilots. Qualified pilots is the FAA’s concern.
 
Last edited:
A: This sentence is puzzling to me: "Compensation can also take the form of accumulation of flight time".

Yep... If you get flight time for free, that is compensation.

Hypothetically, If accumulating flight time is compensation, than would borrowing a good friend's airplane for a pleasure flight be compensation (even if I paid all the expenses)?

If you paid for it, it's not compensation - You exchanged money for flight time, very similar to renting an airplane. If you did not pay for it, you received compensation in the form of something of value (flight time) given to you for free.

Also, there had been a time or 2 in the past when I picked up or dropped off a friend's airplane for him after repairs at a different field for no charge or expense payments whatsoever, but it sounds like this would be considered flight experience compensation?

Yes. Will you get in trouble for it? Not likely, unless you crash the plane or otherwise come to the FAA's attention. But that doesn't mean it was legal, it just means you're not likely to get caught.

So, if "A" is correct, NO flight can be taken while getting nothing. So can a private pilot use any airplane that he does not own or he is renting without receiving compensation (flight experience)? This sounds like a ridiculous concept, but that is how the AOPA summary reads to me. Heck, even if I were flying my own airplane for pleasure, I am still getting flight experience compensation.

Not really. If you're paying for the flight, you're exchanging something of value (your money) for something else of value (flight experience) and you don't have a net gain. If you gain the flight experience without exchanging anything of value for it, you have a net gain and are thus receiving compensation.

The flight time as compensation is the most ridiculous notion ever. It just isn't logical, there are so many flying scenarios where you would be in violation of this that are not commercial operations.

It is somewhat ridiculous, but only because of the innumerable ridiculous ways that pilots have tried to get around the limitations of their Private Pilot certificate.

So if a safety pilot is flying with me, and he accumulates hours, but I pay for the flight, is he in violation?
No.

... Because that safety pilot is exchanging something of value - His time and services as a safety pilot - for that flight time. Now, if you take that to a logical extreme, you can make the argument:

I don't think flying a plane someone else paid for would be either. The only benefit I get, is accumulating flight time. Not something someone can give you. You're earning it by flying, and taking the time to do so.....just as the safety pilot is.

But, the FAA has certainly interpreted certain things, like safety piloting, to be advantageous to safety, so they allow it. Likely the same for allowing glider club members who are private pilots to fly aero-tow. But when you get away from those exceptions, it comes down to free flight time and will be interpreted as compensation.
 
For practical matter this is like the theocratic discussion of How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
 
Can I see in your logs? Oh i see 6 years ago you flew a different tail number for a flight or three, who paid for this fuel and can i see a receipt dated from then proving this? Did you overnight on this trip and can I see the flea bag motel receipt?
 
This again? It wasn't rare for students in my flight school to ferry planes to another airport for maintenance. I don't know about the others, but I didn't pay for the plane, nor was I paid. And I'm not worried about it (of course, it was decades ago.)
 
Last edited:
This again? It wasn't rare for students in my flight school to ferry planes to another airport for maintenance. I don't know about the others, but I didn't pay for the plane, nor was I paid. And I'm not worried about it (of course, it was decades ago.)
While I don’t speak for the FAA, I doubt anything would come of that...It’s the “will ferry your airplane for food” types that they’re concerned with. But if they wrote the reg to cover every possible permutation, it would fill up the internet.
 
Isn't that exactly what the ferry pilot would be doing? Exchanging his time and services as a ferry pilot- for that flight time?

The FAA has exempted safety piloting because having private pilots be able to act as safety pilots increases overall safety.

Having private pilots act as ferry pilots does nothing to increase overall safety.
 
A, Clearly yes, there is no compensation.
B, Clearly no, the reimbursement is conditioned on the flight.
C, Clearly don't ask, don't tell.

Would these questions be easier if the FAA didn't use the same word the business world uses for "pay and benefits"?
 
Back
Top