Covid-19 shelter-in-place rules and GA

SoonerAviator said:
Probably because as Americans, the Constitution is the law of the land. We don't suspend it just because there is something unpleasant occurring, otherwise we'd be suspending it all of the time. Since the data/statistics are somewhat poor at this point in the game, I don't know that I'd say the virus could kill us all in the state it's currently in. Obviously if you're over 60 and have underlying health conditions, you should try and steer clear for a while. There are lots of virus that can kill you, but we don't stop living because of it. No one is advocating that people not take proper precautions to limit the spread of the virus, especially to those who have minimal faculties to fight it off. However, when events like these occur, governments tend to enact knee-jerk legislation and abuse their authority as granted to them in the US Constitution. Sacrificing liberty in the name of safety is not acceptable.
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Yeah, since probably only two percent will die in the US, because we've got great healthcare, let's let everyone get it. And then we'll all be immune. To one strain. And 99.99% of the mutations make it weaker. But with 330,000,000 hosts, it takes exactly one to host a mutation that could be worse than the Spanish flu.
This is nothing but an inconvenience, seriously.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Yeah, since probably only two percent will die in the US, because we've got great healthcare, let's let everyone get it. And then we'll all be immune. To one strain. And 99.99% of the mutations make it weaker. But with 330,000,000 hosts, it takes exactly one to host a mutation that could be worse than the Spanish flu.
This is nothing but an inconvenience, seriously.
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I think you misunderstood me a bit. I specifically said that no one was advocating that people not take proper precautions. However, not being able to fly your personal aircraft around and preventing people from exercising their freedoms isn't something most Constitutionalists would consider allowable. Right now, we don't know if this is a "deadlier" virus than seasonal influenza simply because the data we are gathering is a bit biased and results in statistics that aren't great for explaining that risk. As far as a viral mutation being spread among 330M hosts, well, that could happen with any virus on any day. I'm not sure why the mutation of this specific virus would be feared any more than one that induces hemorrhagic fever. I have my doubts that even 2% of the US citizens will become infected, much less die from Covid-19, but that's just my gut feeling. Currently world-wide, we have about 350,000 people who have been infected last time I looked. Not dead, infected. For 2% of the US population to be infected, it would have to infect around 6.6 Million people, or almost 19 times the current total number of infected worldwide. Don't get me wrong, it's something to take seriously, but I don't think we're talking about 2% of all US citizens being infected, much less dying from it.
 
SoonerAviator said:
I think you misunderstood me a bit. I specifically said that no one was advocating that people not take proper precautions. However, not being able to fly your personal aircraft around and preventing people from exercising their freedoms isn't something most Constitutionalists would consider allowable. Right now, we don't know if this is a "deadlier" virus than seasonal influenza simply because the data we are gathering is a bit biased and results in statistics that aren't great for explaining that risk. As far as a viral mutation being spread among 330M hosts, well, that could happen with any virus on any day. I'm not sure why the mutation of this specific virus would be feared any more than one that induces hemorrhagic fever. I have my doubts that even 2% of the US citizens will become infected, much less die from Covid-19, but that's just my gut feeling. Currently world-wide, we have about 350,000 people who have been infected last time I looked. Not dead, infected. For 2% of the US population to be infected, it would have to infect around 6.6 Million people, or almost 19 times the current total number of infected worldwide. Don't get me wrong, it's something to take seriously, but I don't think we're talking about 2% of all US citizens being infected, much less dying from it.
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The 'thing' with this virus is the fantastic rate of spread.
 
AOPA letter to FAA. My BFR was scheduled for Wednesday and cancelled. I run off at the end of the month so I'm following this.
 

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Snowmass said:
It was 50 million world wide and this is NOT the Spanish flu. Read this:https://nationalsecurityforum.org/videos/
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1918 Spanish flu estimated that about 500 million people or one-third of the world’s population became infected with this virus. The number of deaths was estimated to be at least 50 million some estimated at around 100 million world wide. They were not as good counting dead back then as they are now, China not so much.
 
I've thought quite a bit about this and the legality of such orders. I think that until martial law is ordered (all bets are off then) the American public is mainly compliant with orders whether or not they are forcible. I own a restaurant and all have been closed in our state. If I really wanted to force the issue and remain open I could probably fight and maybe even win, but it is unlikely that I would have any customers to serve even if I did stay open. What this really comes down to is that I don't believe police will have to enforce any of these "orders" because the vast majority is already following them. To take the time to nit-pick over the few people that decide to do their own thing would be a complete waste of time and resources. I guess wasting time or money has never really been a concern of government before, but hopefully this is what will take place.
 
SoonerAviator said:
, but I don't think we're talking about 2% of all US citizens being infected, much less dying from it.
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Maybe because we're taking such drastic action so few people will be infected and die. The big question is what if we didn't do all of this. Might be not much of anything, could be very bad. We'll never know unless we go back in time and do nothing. We will never know for sure.
 
F
Kenny Phillips said:
Yeah, since probably only two percent will die in the US, because we've got great healthcare, let's let everyone get it. And then we'll all be immune. To one strain. And 99.99% of the mutations make it weaker. But with 330,000,000 hosts, it takes exactly one to host a mutation that could be worse than the Spanish flu.
This is nothing but an inconvenience, seriously.
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For you maybe. What about all of those that will lose their jobs, businesses, houses? How about the stresses on marriages? How many COVID induced divorces? Then there is the ballooning deficit.

Seasonal flu - currently 10000 dead
COVID19 - currently 467 dead

Is the cure worse than the disease?
 
Morgan3820 said:
F

For you maybe. What about all of those that will lose their jobs, businesses, houses? How about the stresses on marriages? How many COVID induced divorces? Then there is the ballooning deficit.

Seasonal flu - 10000 dead
COVID19 - 467 dead

Is the cure worse than the disease?
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We will never know for sure, will we.

Also, I can’t wait for ALL the Monday morning quarterbacking once this is over. The problem is, you will never know, and can’t prove a negative. I hope we just move forward, but knowing all politicians and the media, that just won’t happen. SMDH.
 
WDD said:
Maybe because we're taking such drastic action so few people will be infected and die. The big question is what if we didn't do all of this. Might be not much of anything, could be very bad. We'll never know unless we go back in time and do nothing. We will never know for sure.
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Not sure what you're saying. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be taking drastic action, and I'd hope that it would have a significant impact on how many get infected and the rate of infection. Otherwise, what would be the point? I'm saying that I'm not sure that going out and flying your own aircraft or shutting down small GA airports is really necessary or should even be acceptable unless we're in the most dire of circumstances. I can't think of a ton of risk of GA spreading the Coronavirus aside from something like pilot mills or similar where there would be a lot of people in a small area for pilot training. It's why most of the pancake breakfasts have been postponed/cancelled, but airports still remain open. No need to restrict people from personal flying.
 
Rcmutz said:
We will never know for sure, will we.

Also, I can’t wait for ALL the Monday morning quarterbacking once this is over. The problem is, you will never know, and can’t prove a negative. I hope we just move forward, but knowing all politicians and the media, that just won’t happen. SMDH.
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I agree. Just angers me when all people can see is their own fear. Amazes me they found the courage to get a pilots certificate.
Too scared to live, too afraid of dying.
 
Morgan3820 said:
F

For you maybe. What about all of those that will lose their jobs, businesses, houses? How about the stresses on marriages? How many COVID induced divorces? Then there is the ballooning deficit.

Seasonal flu - currently 10000 dead
COVID19 - currently 467 dead

Is the cure worse than the disease?
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467 which was over 100 more than yesterday, and I'd guess will be even higher today and tomorrow. You can't look at what has happened, you have to look at what is happening.
 
Snowmass said:
Your rant fails the logic test (like so many here) flying is NOT the same a gathering in large numbers and constitutional rights are far more important than my life or your life. Hopefully, if we can keep the lefties at bay, they will continue long after the life of any alive today. You SHOULD follow the edicts voluntarily because most are right and logical. Some are stupid political grandstanding like closing the tiny Glenwood Springs CO airport except for emergency traffic. What good could this possibly accomplish?
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The GWS thing is likely more about city resources, stopping visitors to a small town who’s “backup hospital” in Vail was out of beds two weeks ago, and not tying up anybody if even a small incident were to occur from EMS or Fire.

Honestly a number of small towns with no depth to their first responder systems should block travel and anything that could stress their tiny departments WHEN their neighboring bigger towns and cities hit a point that they can’t render mutual aid.

GWS probably relies on GJT first before Vail, but the high country is a mess right now I’m terms of resources. I don’t think they are grandstanding at all.

If you know you already might not be able to call for backup... how’s Aspen looking?
 
midwestpa24 said:
467 which was over 100 more than yesterday, and I'd guess will be even higher today and tomorrow. You can't look at what has happened, you have to look at what is happening.
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I get your point.
You are missing mine
 
denverpilot said:
The GWS thing is likely more about city resources, stopping visitors to a small town who’s “backup hospital” in Vail was out of beds two weeks ago, and not tying up anybody if even a small incident were to occur from EMS or Fire.

Honestly a number of small towns with no depth to their first responder systems should block travel and anything that could stress their tiny departments WHEN their neighboring bigger towns and cities hit a point that they can’t render mutual aid.

GWS probably relies on GJT first before Vail, but the high country is a mess right now I’m terms of resources. I don’t think they are grandstanding at all.

If you know you already might not be able to call for backup... how’s Aspen looking?
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This what is happening in the Hamptons etc around NYC. Folks are fleeing out of the city according to reports.
 
Morgan3820 said:
I get your point.
You are missing mine
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No I understand your point, but we can't wait until the virus has spread to react to it. You have to realize the data the governments worldwide are using in their decision making. We know that this virus first appeared in China in mid November. By January 1 it had escaped containment and started to spread rapidly. By March it has now spread to nearly every corner of the globe. And while it doesn't kill everyone it comes into contact with, it does severely sicken enough to overwhelm medical resources, which causes mortality rates to increase because there just isn't enough resources to help those who are sick.

Add to it, there is no known cure or vaccine, at this time, to help slow it down medically. The only solution, for now, is to separate people.
 
Morgan3820 said:
F

For you maybe. What about all of those that will lose their jobs, businesses, houses? How about the stresses on marriages? How many COVID induced divorces? Then there is the ballooning deficit.

Seasonal flu - currently 10000 dead
COVID19 - currently 467 dead

Is the cure worse than the disease?
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Maybe. But the deaths in the US doubled from Fri to today. At this rate, we’ll get to 10k in about 14 days at this trajectory. I don’t know. I’m just observing.
 
brien23 said:
How is it possible that pilots are more about their constitutional rights than the fact this virus is a real killer and it could kill you. Go out and fly, get together in large numbers and protest the government orders, I will buy your aircraft for 10 cents on the dollar from your family after you are gone. This is the dumb leading the dumber, those who's rights are more important than their life, I can only hope more people take care of themselves and follow our leaders, or the condition of GA will be as dead as those who blow off the virus.
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The same way that a couple centuries ago the liberty vs death thing was a thing...there’s a whole spectrum of beliefs and that’s what caused people to die for what they believed in. Same today. There are people that say they will fight to the death for their 2nd amendment rights...some are full of crap and some are just “crazy” enough to do so (I know some of em). This plane vs virus thing is just a location on a spectrum of beliefs. It’s what formed the US and shapes it today.
 
brien23 said:
How is it possible that pilots are more about their constitutional rights than the fact this virus is a real killer and it could kill you. Go out and fly, get together in large numbers and protest the government orders, I will buy your aircraft for 10 cents on the dollar from your family after you are gone. This is the dumb leading the dumber, those who's rights are more important than their life, I can only hope more people take care of themselves and follow our leaders, or the condition of GA will be as dead as those who blow off the virus.
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Samuel Adams said it better than I ever could.

"May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."​
 
Yesterday the State of Delaware went with ordering closed all non-essential businesses in the state. This morning my home state of Maryland followed suit. I made a call to the shop I am scheduled with, in Delaware, to check on their status. So far they will be open but there will be NO owner assisted annuals. This does not make me happy, even though I totally get it. So for now we continue to practice social distancing and move forward.

Mary and I have done the take out thing with a few of our local favorites trying to give them business. It's strange driving up to the nicer restaurants and them bringing your food out to the car. We are using Clorox wipes to handle and immediately dispose of any packaging. Yes, it's added stress, but taking the precautions as directed will help.

Be safe my fellow aviators.
 
brien23 said:
How is it possible that pilots are more about their constitutional rights than the fact this virus is a real killer and it could kill you. Go out and fly, get together in large numbers and protest the government orders, I will buy your aircraft for 10 cents on the dollar from your family after you are gone. This is the dumb leading the dumber, those who's rights are more important than their life, I can only hope more people take care of themselves and follow our leaders, or the condition of GA will be as dead as those who blow off the virus.
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The fact is that I just flew my privately owned plane without seeing another person or touching anything public, so zero chance of either spreading or picking up the virus. Actually a group of three of us, but one guy never got his license and the other guy and I just let each other know when we flew. If we fly within 3 days of each other, we will disinfect the plane well. Three days seems to be a safe time period for the virus to die on hard surfaces, especially with an alcohol wipe after that period.

So what is the problem with this? I saw plenty of people (from the air) up at the state park in much more dense groups participating in a state-approved activity of hiking outdoors. They were doing an “approved” activity but I was breaking the public trust? I don’t by it.
 
I can go fly without coming into contact with any other humans. Call the FBO, they pull out and fuel the airplane. I get in on my own, fly, land. FBO puts plane away. I can do all that without coming anywhere near another human.

The way I've read these lockdown rules, it seems clear that there's some expectation on us to exercise common sense. They say you're allowed to out and walk to the dog or take walks/bike rides in a park because you're not in contact with people. If you fly solo there shouldn't really be an issue.
 
And that folks is the ball game.
They just shut down GA in Massachusetts until April 7.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
The 'thing' with this virus is the fantastic rate of spread.
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Yes, it is quite impressive ... can't imagine a better delivery system unless you were conducting phase 1 biological weapons tests and wanted to increase the mortality rate with an "adjustment" later? I'm not a conspiracy theory type person, but H1N1, H1N5 and this all release out of the same area? Quite the coincidence ....
 
midwestpa24 said:
No I understand your point, but we can't wait until the virus has spread to react to it. You have to realize the data the governments worldwide are using in their decision making. We know that this virus first appeared in China in mid November. By January 1 it had escaped containment and started to spread rapidly. By March it has now spread to nearly every corner of the globe. And while it doesn't kill everyone it comes into contact with, it does severely sicken enough to overwhelm medical resources, which causes mortality rates to increase because there just isn't enough resources to help those who are sick.

Add to it, there is no known cure or vaccine, at this time, to help slow it down medically. The only solution, for now, is to separate people.
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At the cost of 30% unemployment?
 
Shepherd said:
And that folks is the ball game.
They just shut down GA in Massachusetts until April 7.
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@Shepherd where does it specifically state that you can’t fly GA in MA? I saw that Great Barrington shut down their flight school and rentals, but I don’t see any shutdown order for GA flying of private aircraft.
If you read the essential services list, it does actually exempt aircraft ramp personnel, aircrews, aircraft maintenance personnel. So airports can stay open to provide fueling services.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
@Shepherd where does it specifically state that you can’t fly GA in MA? I saw that Great Barrington shut down their flight school and rentals, but I don’t see any shutdown order for GA flying of private aircraft.
If you read the essential services list, it does actually exempt aircraft ramp personnel, aircrews, aircraft maintenance personnel. So airports can stay open to provide fueling services.
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I guess if you own your own plane you can fly, but I checked a couple of airports and they are all closed for rentals and flight schools.
I'm trying to get one of the managers on the phone to specifically ask about refueling.
If I get an answer, I'll post it.
 
Ok, so Mass is not really shut down for GA, just renting. Makes sense.
 
Isn’t it their burden of proof?

What if you just don’t say anything
 
It not even the renting of the aircraft that is the problem, it is the open place of business with multiple people in close contact all day long. In NY, the rules specifically exempt every business with only one owner/employee. So if a rental operation was run by a single person, it could stay open and rent aircraft and there would be no issues at all. But all these operations have more than one perso , putting employees on the front lines for potentially spreading/getting infected from renters causing liability for the owners.
 
Guys, this is excessive. People are staying home, losing jobs and closing business, and you can't stay off a recreational airplane? It sounds like a problem worse than alcoholism.

I am choosing not to fly during this time, not because GA has anything to do with the virus, but because by the remote chance that something happens to me or my airplane while flying, even if it is entirely someone elses fault, I don't want to tie up valuable medical services and government resources at this time.
 
@sarangan Answer a question for me, if you will. How many times have you left your house in a car for any reason this past week and how many planned for this week? Include any trips that you had others do on your behalf. Just curious if you can be honest about the numbers as every trip is a potential car crash waiting to happen. Are you reducing your trips to an absolute minimum? I am only leaving the house once every two weeks for the grocery store and once every two weeks for a flight. If GA is as dangerous as a motorcycle, are you complaining about every person that you see out riding their motorcycle as well? Or for that matter, food delivery as they drive a car to deliver a single meal. Just make everyone cook for themselves and only grocery shop once every two weeks max and it is safer than a bunch of food delivery drivers driving around.
So we have a bunch of selfish acts -
Going grocery shopping too often
Driving a car or motorcycle
Getting food delivery
Even going for a hike is probably as dangerous as GA flying
Lets mandate all those be forbidden as well
 
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