Why you need a good carbon monoxide detector

Do I need one? My cabin heat does not come off an exhaust can. (it comes from compressed air exiting the turbo).
Ie what is the chance of (incapacitating) CO entering the cabin from temporary configuration changes or taxing with the door open or an ongoing exhaust leak that finds its way through the firewall?
In a different but recent "in the hangar" video they were discussing CO and the guest mentioned about some aircraft not really needing detectors for just that reason....but they didn't really get in depth on that point.
I was thinking another similar situation might be a twin with an inop gas furnace or in the summer when the gas furnace would be shut off.
I was thinking that even in those situations I'd still probably want some sort of detector...just based on my own speculation and not really fulling knowing. The risk might be many multiples lower but it seems to me there's still probably a chance...especially in a case like yours of a single engine, where that big CO producing machine is just inches forward of the firewall.

Maybe the CO is coming from the aircraft waiting for takeoff inline in front of you in the run-up area. Would say 5 minutes of that sort of diluted exposure be enough to cause lapses in judgement? I have no idea...
 
Going from full rich to peak or leaner reduces the CO concentration out of the engine by about 90% to 98% which makes it very hard to poison yourself. But, God forbid, we would ever run LOP.
Oh

well having a properly maintained exhaust system helps too. God forbid anyone would spend money maintaining the airplane.

either way it can, has and will continue to kill people.
 
ok...update.

Today went for a lunch run to CBE (Cumberland MD) and met up with a group from GAI and a few from around the area. When leaving....it was a bit hot and I opened the side window while taxiing....and I noticed the CO reading 10, it normally reads 0....and thought Hmmmm, never seen that before. It must be very sensitive. Closed the window and within a minute or so....it was back to zero.

so, a second recommendation for the Amazon Forensics model.

Battery charge is still reading full.....
 
Both times I had muffler problems, I could smell the exhaust, CO monitor confirmed my suspicions. Am I the only one that can smell the exhaust?
 
Not the OP but “It’s a joke, son!”
Perhaps stated in a smart assish way, but not a joke.

If the individual in the video back in the first post had been running LOP, he wouldn't have had such a great story to tell because he wouldn't have succumbed to CO. Just grumbling about the cost to fix his exhaust system. Eventually.
 
I have this one. Just had to cross runway 21 to get it as they are made in Tucson.

13-07102.jpg
 
If you do a search on Mooneyspace, Dan is an advocate for Sensorcon. He has given out a discount code for anyone to use. It’s 20% off. His story is truly amazing. I’ve lost a close family member to CO poisoning and I know of several others too. It’s a seriously deadly problem.
 
Engines don’t produce hazardous quantities of carbon monoxide during LOP operations.
 
Check your exhaust system frequently.

Detection good, prevention better. :) I know that a sudden exhaust failure is possible, but more often it's a small crack that propagates over time and causes the issue.
I pressure checked (shop vac and soap) my muffler every annual(last one 88hrs previous) Every 5-10hrs I pulled the cowl and visually inspected everything. Had I had a Sensoron or similar I would have noticed the crack immediately when it happened. Well before I had a problem.

This model has a fairly strong metal clip; I attach it to the side pocket in my cockpit where I store my checklist, charts, etc.
I don't think it needs to be in my field of view - the alarm is very loud; the whole idea is that you DON'T have to watch it, it'll get your attention if or when needed.

- Martin
Martin, I recommend having it in your field of view. Being able to see the flashing lights while the alarm is going off helps identify the alarm.

Do I need one? My cabin heat does not come off an exhaust can. (it comes from compressed air exiting the turbo).
Ie what is the chance of (incapacitating) CO entering the cabin from temporary configuration changes or taxing with the door open or an ongoing exhaust leak that finds its way through the firewall?
Generaly pressurized airplanes are much safer in regards to CO. But the recent accident of the PA46 in the English Channel shows that it can happen.

Oh

well having a properly maintained exhaust system helps too. God forbid anyone would spend money maintaining the airplane.

either way it can, has and will continue to kill people.
I agree a properly maintained exhaust system is important. I maintained my airplane to a high standard. Are you saying I didn't spend enough money doing so?

Perhaps stated in a smart assish way, but not a joke.

If the individual in the video back in the first post had been running LOP, he wouldn't have had such a great story to tell because he wouldn't have succumbed to CO. Just grumbling about the cost to fix his exhaust system. Eventually.
I was flying an O-360. LOP isn't an option, although I always leaned aggressively. Both on the ground and in the air I ran as lean as I possibly could, with the exception of TO and initial climb. I was generally at or near peak, much less CO than 50 or 100 ROP. I was full rich on the accident flight as I passed out just 4.5min after TO. In this case full rich actually saved my life. The airplane only climbed to 12.5K and burned though 22gal (what was in the left tank) in 1.5hrs. If I were leaned at all I would have went much higher and longer and most likely would have perished.

Given the topic, may be pertinent to mention that pulse oximeters do not detect CO poisoning.
Your spo2 monitor will read erroneously high in cases of CO poisoning.
I wanted to point this out during the interview and forgot to. I checked my SPo2 during the first flight of the day and noted I was doing better than my average. I falsely assumed I was going good, but the CO was causing it to read higher.

Arguably the CO detector isn't likely to be so needed in the summer when not using cabin heat....but you never know what might have not seemed like a pressing issue to someone else.
After digging into data from CO accidents over the past 40 years I discovered that only 1/2 of the accidents were caused by breaches in the heating system. So it should be taken seriously both summer and winter.

Maybe the CO is coming from the aircraft waiting for takeoff inline in front of you in the run-up area. Would say 5 minutes of that sort of diluted exposure be enough to cause lapses in judgement? I have no idea...
Small amounts from ground ops should have no effect on judgement. It's prolonged exposure that is the problem. In my case it was prolonged exposure over several flights. The half life of CO in you body is about 4-5hrs so even with breaks in exposure you can build on the previous.

The benefits of the digital CO detectors are enormous. They can pick up very small levels of CO that are not physiologically dangerous, but point to a growing problem. I have had reports of people finding small cracks in the muffler that their maintainers didn't find. One friend discovered a broken v-band clamp on his turbo, another reported finding a broken engine mount that caused a shift in an exhaust joint that resulted in a CO rise. They should be used like we use an engine monitor, looking for small changes and investigating when we do.

Cheers,
Dan
 
Another problem with CO is if, you recognize its effects and open a vent or a window, it often won't help as expected. At normal atmospheric pressures, CO bonds with your blood more readily than oxygen and doesn't want to let go. This is why they use hyperbaric chambers to treat CO poisoning. Under those conditions, oxygen is more likely to bond and the CO will be released by your blood.
 
In this case full rich actually saved my life. The airplane only climbed to 12.5K and burned though 22gal (what was in the left tank) in 1.5hrs. If I were leaned at all I would have went much higher and longer and most likely would have perished.
So, like, you would be that guy without a seatbelt who actually got thrown clear of the accident!!!
Wow.

Thank you for sharing.
 
I use a Sensorcor. Tells me if my passenger door is not latched correctly.
Convinced me of which one to order...

(I ain't got no mixture control - plus just added a heater over the holiday break - wow! it is nice to have HEAT!)
 
Engines don’t produce hazardous quantities of carbon monoxide during LOP operations.
I have a ventless gas fireplace in my house burning LP (no chimney and no flue pipe). I keep a CO detector and and LP detector in the room and I've often wondered why I never see CO indicated. Maybe it's running LOP!

After digging into data from CO accidents over the past 40 years I discovered that only 1/2 of the accidents were caused by breaches in the heating system. So it should be taken seriously both summer and winter.

Dan, Thanks for sharing your story...and thanks for logging in here and wading through all this.

I'm surprised by this. I would have thought that the exhaust/heating system is the most likely path.
So are you saying that half are made up of cabin leaks (like coming in through door seals, windows, opening in the firewall)?
Other than twin engine gas furnaces, what other sources would there be?
 
Not super scientific testing but gives you an idea how it actually performs.

Thank you for your video! I initially overlooked the comments from Forensics and Sensorcon (h/t @ktup-flyer):
Forensics Detectors said:
Hi AV8OR, Thanks for the CO detector comparison. I was pleasantly surprised to see our product in the mix here! If you do not mind I would like to make a few comments for your viewers. During development of our FORENSICS CO Detector we surveyed and spoke with many pilots and made changes from the "traditional" product offerings, which we believe has resulted in a superior product. A few items worth mentioning however. (a) Calibration of accuracy is very important. A higher reading detector does not necessarily mean "better" - the question is which is most accurate to a calibrated "known" CO gas concentration. Although your testing was "crude" it was sufficient as a "operational" test sequence, but please be careful, higher does not mean a better CO detector; (b) Another issue is mounting. We surveyed pilots and they suggested a slip sleeve with stick-on is best allowing one to easily mount on the dash and on any smooth surface - we use industry grade 3M stick pads (and offer free replacements). Alligator clips are sometimes hard to place on a aircraft dash, and when asked, pilots have responded as not the most favorable choice; (c) Pressure changes. As one increases altitude, partial pressure of gases change and one needs to ensure the sensor responds accurately. We have tested and certified accuracy of our detector up to 30,000 feet executed with Dr. Lindell Weaver, CO Expert and Hyperbaric expert at the Intermountain Medical Center in Salt Lake City; (d) Life of the sensor - all detectors you tested have a limited life of 2 years. Our sensor is rated for at least 3 years, but continuous to operate, and can operate for at least another year if well taken care of (i.e. stored and operated within temperature and humidity specs). Also, "responsible" pilots want to have a expiry date on the detector so they can enter replacement dates on their service calendar and/or logbooks and not leave it to "chance". (e) Our survey showed price is also important. We kept the price point as low as possible so that buying a new quality CO detector every 3 years for $99 is a pill most can swallow. All in all, it was very informative video and thank you for taking the time to shed more attention on this extremely important issue.

Sensorcon said:
Hello AV8OR51, We’re excited to be included in this test and appreciate you taking the time to do this comparison. Sensorcon has been working with Dan Bass to help bring awareness about the dangers of carbon monoxide while flying; we appreciate his dedication to the community. Like the other sensors reviewed in this video, the Sensorcon Inspector uses an electrochemical sensing element; however, our sensing element is manufactured in Buffalo, NY. The Sensorcon Inspector specifications can be found on each product page on our website. We agree with Forensics that a higher reading does not indicate better accuracy. Without knowing the final concentration of the gas in this test setup, it is impossible to know if one unit was more accurate than the other. Accuracy is dependent on the drift of the sensing element over a given time frame. Only routine calibration ensures the sensor will perform to the stated specifications. At Sensorcon, we calibrate our sensor prior to shipping to our customers and avoid using fulfillment services because we cannot control how long a sensor may sit on the shelf before arriving to the customer. Once a customer receives our sensor, we recommend calibration every 6 months. Based on pilot customer feedback, we recommend you clip/attach the sensor to yourself so you can feel the unit vibrating, if harmful levels of CO are present. Relying on audio visual alarms is not enough; many of our pilot customers use noise cancelling headphones while flying and some have even indicated that they placed the unit out of sight. Here at Sensorcon, we believe the best solution is to wear the detector so you can feel the unit vibrating. While the specified life span of Sensorcon Inspector is two years, many of our customers obtain many more years of use by performing frequent calibrations (every 6 months) and/or out of warranty repairs. If you have any questions, we would be happy to speak with you about these options. Sensorcon stands by our products and we thank you for taking the time to test our unit and bring more awareness about the harmful effects of carbon monoxide while flying.
 
I pressure checked (shop vac and soap) my muffler every annual(last one 88hrs previous) Every 5-10hrs I pulled the cowl and visually inspected everything. Had I had a Sensoron or similar I would have noticed the crack immediately when it happened. Well before I had a problem.


Martin, I recommend having it in your field of view. Being able to see the flashing lights while the alarm is going off helps identify the alarm.


Generaly pressurized airplanes are much safer in regards to CO. But the recent accident of the PA46 in the English Channel shows that it can happen.


I agree a properly maintained exhaust system is important. I maintained my airplane to a high standard. Are you saying I didn't spend enough money doing so?


I was flying an O-360. LOP isn't an option, although I always leaned aggressively. Both on the ground and in the air I ran as lean as I possibly could, with the exception of TO and initial climb. I was generally at or near peak, much less CO than 50 or 100 ROP. I was full rich on the accident flight as I passed out just 4.5min after TO. In this case full rich actually saved my life. The airplane only climbed to 12.5K and burned though 22gal (what was in the left tank) in 1.5hrs. If I were leaned at all I would have went much higher and longer and most likely would have perished.


I wanted to point this out during the interview and forgot to. I checked my SPo2 during the first flight of the day and noted I was doing better than my average. I falsely assumed I was going good, but the CO was causing it to read higher.


After digging into data from CO accidents over the past 40 years I discovered that only 1/2 of the accidents were caused by breaches in the heating system. So it should be taken seriously both summer and winter.


Small amounts from ground ops should have no effect on judgement. It's prolonged exposure that is the problem. In my case it was prolonged exposure over several flights. The half life of CO in you body is about 4-5hrs so even with breaks in exposure you can build on the previous.

The benefits of the digital CO detectors are enormous. They can pick up very small levels of CO that are not physiologically dangerous, but point to a growing problem. I have had reports of people finding small cracks in the muffler that their maintainers didn't find. One friend discovered a broken v-band clamp on his turbo, another reported finding a broken engine mount that caused a shift in an exhaust joint that resulted in a CO rise. They should be used like we use an engine monitor, looking for small changes and investigating when we do.

Cheers,
Dan
WTF are you talking about? I didn’t quote or respond to anything you said.
 
WTF are you talking about? I didn’t quote or respond to anything you said.
My apologies, I thought your were commenting on my accident. The one showcased in Martin's link. After rereading your original post I see you were commenting on another post. Sorry,
Dan
 
Do I need one? My cabin heat does not come off an exhaust can. (it comes from compressed air exiting the turbo).
Ie what is the chance of (incapacitating) CO entering the cabin from temporary configuration changes or taxing with the door open or an ongoing exhaust leak that finds its way through the firewall?
Its an engine and its in front of you. Those facts alone kind of dictate that the chances are something other than zero. If that's the case, why would you not want to spend a 0.2 AMU's on something that could save you life?
 
First-hand story from a survivor of a crash - Dan Bass became unconscious in his Mooney due to carbon monoxide poisoning. When he came to, he found himself on the ground in the badly damaged plane.

I should stop telling the story, and let Dan speak for himself:


Please get a good CO detector for your plane. The little tabs are not going to save you.
Thanks for this vid. Informative, valuable info. Especially since I rent older (though well maintained) aircraft.

Seriously considering which detector to purchase.
 
I ordered a sensorcon yesterday, about $100 shipped with the discount code, made in USA.
 
why $1k?

I find it interesting...the school I'm currently renting from wants a $1,000 upfront payment (1AMU) to account to lock in the "block rate"...a $5.00 per hour rental savings. Buys me only about 11 minutes extra in the air (or taxiing..)
 
Fortunately, this is one piece of equipment that I don't need. :D

Yeah but the heat that comes off my oil cooler sucks. Below 30 degrees outside, forget it. Useless.
 
Its an engine and its in front of you.
Ok, I see your point and don’t argue.
I do however, operate several ICE’s, all located in front of me (none of which get cabin heat from the exhaust muff, and no one even thinks to install a monitor so I feel it is right to ask.
 
Ok, I see your point and don’t argue.
I do however, operate several ICE’s, all located in front of me (none of which get cabin heat from the exhaust muff, and no one even thinks to install a monitor so I feel it is right to ask.
Understandable. My perspective would still be the same if it were me though. Planes ain't cars nor are they built like cars. I've had semi trucks in the fleet that had exhaust leak issues and CO intrusion into the cab enough to make drivers sick. I'm sure other trucking companies have had the same. I've never heard of a single case where a truck driver was incapacitated enough to cause a fatal accident because of it. Can't say the same about aircraft.
 
Understandable. My perspective would still be the same if it were me though. Planes ain't cars nor are they built like cars. I've had semi trucks in the fleet that had exhaust leak issues and CO intrusion into the cab enough to make drivers sick. I'm sure other trucking companies have had the same. I've never heard of a single case where a truck driver was incapacitated enough to cause a fatal accident because of it. Can't say the same about aircraft.
Trucks (Diesel) run LOP. :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoover_Dam#Construction
"Not included in the official number of fatalities were deaths that were recorded as pneumonia. Workers alleged that this diagnosis was a cover for death from carbon monoxide poisoning (brought on by the use of gasoline-fueled vehicles in the diversion tunnels), and a classification used by Six Companies to avoid paying compensation claims.[77] The site's diversion tunnels frequently reached 140 °F (60 °C), enveloped in thick plumes of vehicle exhaust gases.[78] A total of 42 workers were recorded as having died from pneumonia and were not included in the above total; none were listed as having died from carbon monoxide poisoning. No deaths of non-workers from pneumonia were recorded in Boulder City during the construction period.[77]"
 
Yeah but the heat that comes off my oil cooler sucks. Below 30 degrees outside, forget it. Useless.
You need to do two things (maybe three) to improve this.

1) Slow down the outside air. 180kts of air passing through the oil cooler won't heat the air much. I put a cover over the NACA in the winter.
2) Recirculate the cabin air. Trying to heat up high speed, 30degree air to 80 degrees can be difficult. Easier to heat up 50 degree air. I have a damper that will shut off outside air and pump cabin air through the oil cooler.
3) Seal up the leaks. Easier with the FG's than the RG's. I spent a lot of time sealing the nose from the cabin.
 
You need to do two things (maybe three) to improve this.

1) Slow down the outside air. 180kts of air passing through the oil cooler won't heat the air much. I put a cover over the NACA in the winter.
2) Recirculate the cabin air. Trying to heat up high speed, 30degree air to 80 degrees can be difficult. Easier to heat up 50 degree air. I have a damper that will shut off outside air and pump cabin air through the oil cooler.
3) Seal up the leaks. Easier with the FG's than the RG's. I spent a lot of time sealing the nose from the cabin.

Sealing up the leaks is really what I’ve got to get hot on. It’s amazing how much cold air is getting in. I’ve done a little with weather stripping but I’ve got to seal the hyd lines and the push pull tube from the stick.
 
So my Sensorcor unit came yesterday. Seems like a very sturdy little unit.

Did a little test real quick behind my truck...I'm not sure the alarm is loud enough to hear in a cockpit well. Since I'm just renting i was planning to just leave the thing clipped to my flight bag, which I normally "toss" on the back seat. I really didn't want to have to keep up with a thing to take out, secure in some random spot, then most of all I'd have to remember to gather it up after the flight....
I'll have to sort it out...maybe I'll just try to clip it to my belt when I go fly. Prob not the most ideal but maybe not so bad....and it'll get it close so I'm more likely to hear it....even if I won't see the flashing lights
 
Why not clip these to a shirt pocket? Does nobody have pocket tees?

Of course, if you're a professional, you coul clip it to your epaulets!

fly to the scene of the incident, or be recovered at the scene of the tragedy
 
Anyone who has the Sensorcon; I encourage you to set it off on purpose to see how load it ISN'T. I had my flight bag in the saddlebag of my motorcycle in the fall, and when I pulled it out the alarm was going off and reading over 400PPM. Apparently I can't carry small animals in that saddlebag, and I quickly realized there was NO way I'd hear that thing in the airplane. The flashing lights ARE fairly conspicuos however, so I just used a velcro square to attach it to the panel where it would catch my eye. So far no one in the club has complained about the new velcro squares that have shown up in two of the planes....

I was working on my pickup this afternoon when my wall mounted CO alarm went off. I had started the truck for a few seconds to get it aligned on the lift. I took the opportunity to go grab the sensorcon, which immediately alarmed and showed a little over 100PPM CO. I took a short video so you can see what it does if you haven't set it off, and how pathetic the alarm is. I HIGHLY recommend mounting it in your line of sight.


I humbly apologize for the vertical video....

The audio is pretty true to life. Watching the video at the normal volume I watch youtube, it's hard to distinguish the beeping in the video from the sensorcon in the room with me.
 
So my Sensorcor unit came yesterday. Seems like a very sturdy little unit.

Did a little test real quick behind my truck...I'm not sure the alarm is loud enough to hear in a cockpit well. Since I'm just renting i was planning to just leave the thing clipped to my flight bag, which I normally "toss" on the back seat. I really didn't want to have to keep up with a thing to take out, secure in some random spot, then most of all I'd have to remember to gather it up after the flight....
I'll have to sort it out...maybe I'll just try to clip it to my belt when I go fly. Prob not the most ideal but maybe not so bad....and it'll get it close so I'm more likely to hear it....even if I won't see the flashing lights
Put it on a chain


FA348713-600E-46FF-9FD4-4DBF763D3890.jpeg
 
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