Mineral/ashless dispersant oil for break-in

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woxof

Pre-takeoff checklist
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woxof
Hi,

Just reading a Lycoming Service Instruction Letter for engine break-in. As expected, they say use mineral oil for reasons we all know well.

But...it says to use ashless-dispersant oil for the turbocharged versions. Why is that?
 
Mineral oil has a tendency to coke up around the tubrocharger shaft if I recall correctly...not something you want at extremely high temps and 30k + RPMs.
 
woxof said:
Hi,

Just reading a Lycoming Service Instruction Letter for engine break-in. As expected, they say use mineral oil for reasons we all know well.

But...it says to use ashless-dispersant oil for the turbocharged versions. Why is that?
Click to expand...
All Mineral oil are AD oils are ashless, Dispersant. that is what AD stands for (AD)

Do not use a blend of mineral and synthetic .
READ the can.

20-W-50 Phillips complies.
 
Arbiter419 said:
Mineral oil has a tendency to coke up around the tubrocharger shaft if I recall correctly...not something you want at extremely high temps and 30k + RPMs.
Click to expand...
any oil will coke, when the temps are high enough.
 
Tom-D said:
All Mineral oil are AD oils are ashless, Dispersant. that is what AD stands for (AD)

Do not use a blend of mineral and synthetic .
READ the can.

20-W-50 Phillips complies.
Click to expand...
I don't understand your answer. Why the difference between turbo and non-turbo engines for oil used for break-in.
 
I believe one changes it’s character more when hot. See comment about coking around turbo parts. Coke is somewhere in form between coal and slag.
 
woxof said:
I don't understand your answer. Why the difference between turbo and non-turbo engines for oil used for break-in.
Click to expand...

Normally aspirated engines use mineral oil because carbon aids seating the rings. A turbo charged engine break in uses AD oil because the cylinder pressures and heat are higher aiding ring seating and the AD oil aids removal of carbon from the turbo chargers.
 
I have a copy of "Oil Talk For Dummies"
It's a pamphlet produced by ECI for their break instructions, It needs to be enlarged and reproduced, it explains what (AD) oil is plus 21 of the nomenclatures of oil.
I need help with getting this done. I'd like to get this info in the POA directory.
This is in 8 point, it needs to be bigger. and in a form every can read.

can anyone help?
 
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needs to be enlarged but it is fuzzy​
 

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Clip4 said:
Normally aspirated engines use mineral oil because carbon aids seating the rings. A turbo charged engine break in uses AD oil because the cylinder pressures and heat are higher aiding ring seating and the AD oil aids removal of carbon from the turbo chargers.
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NO TRUE !
Any oil that does not contain extra lubrications are acceptable for brake in.

Remember all oil are mineral oils, except the synthetic blends.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
I believe one changes it’s character more when hot. See comment about coking around turbo parts. Coke is somewhere in form between coal and slag.
Click to expand...
Yes, heat that produced carbon that adheres to heated parts, best seen as black oil in your oil.
 
Tom-D said:
NO TRUE !
Any oil that does not contain extra lubrications are acceptable for brake in.

Remember all oil are mineral oils, except the synthetic blends.
Click to expand...

Some of us follow manufacturer recommendations Tom.


Continental - IV. BREAK-IN PROCEDURES
We recommend these procedures to break-in a new, overhauled, or repaired engine:
NOTE: The following break-in procedures apply for through-hardened steel and Nickel+CarbideTM cylinder bores.
NOTE: Use 50-weight, aviation grade mineral oil for engine break-in.


Lycoming - There are two basic types of FAA-approved aviation oils used in general aviation aircraft piston engines.
1. Straight mineral
2. Ashless dispersant (AD)
Many Lycoming engines use straight mineral oil for “break-in” purposes with a new, rebuilt or overhauled engine. The operators should then switch to AD oil after “break-in” has been accomplished. In those engines that use straight mineral oil beyond the normal break-in period (25 to 50 hours), a later switch to AD oil should be done with caution as loosened sludge deposits may clog oil passages. Oil screens must be checked after each flight until clots of sludge no longer appear.

Those Lycoming engines that are to be broken in with AD oil include all turbocharged models, the O-320-H and the O/LO-360-E.
 
Clip4 said:
Continental - IV. BREAK-IN PROCEDURES
We recommend these procedures to break-in a new, overhauled, or repaired engine:
NOTE: The following break-in procedures apply for through-hardened steel and Nickel+CarbideTM cylinder bores.
NOTE: Use 50-weight, aviation grade mineral oil for engine break-in.


Lycoming - There are two basic types of FAA-approved aviation oils used in general aviation aircraft piston engines.
1. Straight mineral
2. Ashless dispersant (AD).
Click to expand...

You don't yet realize that the 2 are 1 and the same ?

Read my link..
http://pceonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ECI-BreakInInstructions.pdf

All aviation oils are Ashless, Dispersant , Mineral oil.

ASHLESS, means that the oil will burn without forming a metal ash
Dispersant ,A cleaning additive; a metallic compound to protect from sludge and varnish build‐ups. Detergents are not allowed under MIL‐L‐22851 or MIL‐L‐6082. No current aviation oil contains detergent compounds.

And yes I do comply with proper break in procedures .
 
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Tom-D said:
You don't yet realize that the 2 are 1 and the same ?

Read my link..
http://pceonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ECI-BreakInInstructions.pdf

All aviation oils are Ashless, Dispersant , Mineral oil.

ASHLESS, means that the oil will burn without forming a metal ash
Dispersant ,A cleaning additive; a metallic compound to protect from sludge and varnish build‐ups. Detergents are not allowed under MIL‐L‐22851 or MIL‐L‐6082. No current aviation oil contains detergent compounds.

And yes I do comply with proper break in procedures .
Click to expand...
Tom-
Please show where your reference says that all aviation oils are ashless dispersant mineral oil. I read it as ECI allowing the use of a particular brand and weight of AD oil, but I didn't see that all aviation oils were AD. Teledyne uses a non-disperant oil for Titan engine break-in:
SAE J1966 Aviation Non-dispersant mineral oil for piston aircraft engines
Click to expand...
http://continental.aero/xPublications/xService Bulletins/Experimental PMA/E-SB003/

Let's take a look at what Shell has to say about the subject. As they produce aviation oils, I'm pretty sure they know something about the subject.
Let's start here:
https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/piston-engine-oil/about.html

Their straight grade oils specifically are used when an oil not containing a dispersant is required
AeroShell Oils 65, 80, 100 and 120 are approved for all aviation piston engines of civil aircraft when the use of an oil not containing a dispersant additive is required; however, they should also be used during the break-in of a new aviation piston engine or those recently overhauled.
Click to expand...
https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/piston-engine-oil/oil-65-80-100-120.html

These Aeroshell products do contain ashless dispersants:
https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/piston-engine-oil/w100plus-w80plus.html
AeroShell Oil W100 Plus and W 80 Plus are new single grade oils that combine proven AeroShell ashless dispersant technology with advanced antiwear additives. They are the oils for pilots who want a single grade that delivers extra protection and performance. AeroShell Oil W 100 Plus and W 80 Plus brings together the best qualities of two of the world's best-selling four cycle aviation oils.

They have the single grade, ashless dispersant performance found in AeroShell W 100 and W 80 and the anti-wear/anti-corrosion additives of AeroShell Oil W 15W50 Multigrade.
Click to expand...

This aviation oil is NOT straight mineral oil, as it is a blend with synthetic and mineral oil.
https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/piston-engine-oil/sports-plus4.html

An ashless dispersant is NOT a metallic compound. When compounds containing metals are burned, the metals are left as their oxides, aka "ash". The metal oxides aren't volatile.
 
My brand new Lycoming came with instructions that say to use mineral oil with no ashless dispersants. I’ve used Phillips X/C to break in my last two engines. With nickel cylinders it worked great. With steel cylinders I wasn’t as happy. This motor (nitrided steel cylinders) will use straight mineral with no dispersant for 50 hours per Lycoming instructions.
 
The theory about why NOT to use dispersant oil is to allow some of the steel cuttings from initial ring-cylinder wall contact to remain and be used as a lapping compound to help the mating process. Dispersants carry the cuttings away. As I understand it the turbos need the dispersants to keep bad stuff from cooking onto very hot turbo parts.
 
Stewartb said:
The theory about why NOT to use dispersant oil is to allow some of the steel cuttings from initial ring-cylinder wall contact to remain and be used as a lapping compound to help the mating process. Dispersants carry the cuttings away. As I understand it the turbos need the dispersants to keep bad stuff from cooking onto very hot turbo parts.
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Actually non-dispersant allows the hard particles to fall out quickly. When you use a filter you don't want the hard particles to fall out, we want the debris carry away to the filter.
 
Question for the group, what is the different in a mineral oil and a lipid oil?
 
My new engine came with a spin on filter installed. Break in instructions don’t differentiate between filter or screen.

As I said earlier, I broke two engines in with X/C. My use of mineral in my new engine is based on my experience using X/C with my last steel cylinders. I hope straight mineral yields better results. In nickel cylinders I don’t think it matters.
 
Stewartb said:
My new engine came with a spin on filter installed. Break in instructions don’t differentiate between filter or screen.

As I said earlier, I broke two engines in with X/C. My use of mineral in my new engine is based on my experience using X/C with my last steel cylinders. I hope straight mineral yields better results. In nickel cylinders I don’t think it matters.
Click to expand...

I am certain your experience is what you believe.

the fact we have filters should make a difference, cause the quicker we get the grinding media out the better.

The engines that I break in with Phillips 20W50 break in with 5 hours and usually do not use a half qt. in the first 25 hours.

I would add, break in is a matter of the cylinder / ring condition than anything else.
 
Continental bought ECI a few years ago. Adopted ECI through hardened barrel manufacturing. What do their break in instructions say? They didn't adopt the ECI instructions. I think that's interesting.
 
Tom-D said:
There is good info there, but the article ignores the factor that we have filters.

And the "W" is simply a winter oil.

Let's keep in mind, we have product advertising in all we read about oils.
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No, Tom-
Please read below
AeroShell 'W' (ashless dispersant) Oils were the first aviation piston engine lubricants to be formulated with non-metallic dispersant additives. They provide exceptional lubricant performance and help avoid the build up of metallic ash residues on critical engine components. These oils are intended for use in a wide range of four-stroke aircraft piston engines, including fuel injected and turbocharged variants.
Click to expand...
https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/piston-engine-oil/about.html
 
In the past decade I’ve overhauled dozens of aircraft engines (most Lycoming) and have personally broken them all in. About 35% of those engines were overhauled for another shop that had an owner that was insistent on using non dispersant oil for break in. I always used XC in the ones I personally signed off. I could tell no difference based on oil type. I’ve always preferred the AD oil because I want the contaminants in the oil filter, not in the oil pan or somewhere else.

Ive tracked my break ins pretty closely, because it is of interest to me. My real job is working in an engine test lab doing development work. I doubt many people outside of an OEM have attempted to constrain this test as closely as I have.

There are lots of people out there and everyone seems to have an opinion on the subject. Very few actually have information to back their claims up however, or if they do it they don’t share it. Regardless of people’s opinions, I’d suggest using the procedure your engine overhaul shop wants to see. The last thing you want to do is jeopardize whatever warranty they are giving you on it.
 
Stewartb said:
Continental bought ECI a few years ago. Adopted ECI through hardened barrel manufacturing. What do their break in instructions say? They didn't adopt the ECI instructions. I think that's interesting.
Click to expand...
I do too, My thoughts are, TCM already had their instructions.

Had you seen the improvement in the cylinder honing since the swap? It looks just like the ECI and the new superior cylinders.
To me this is more reason to chance the oil (AD) we use for break in. the oil we use is the same as the stuff as it was at 1920.
 
Tom-D said:
I do too, My thoughts are, TCM already had their instructions.

Had you seen the improvement in the cylinder honing since the swap? It looks just like the ECI and the new superior cylinders.
To me this is more reason to chance the oil (AD) we use for break in. the oil we use is the same as the stuff as it was at 1920.
Click to expand...
It isn't. This coming from someone who sail all aviation oils were Ashless, dispersant mineral oils. Then further claimed "W" was winter oil.
 
Tom-D said:
I do too, My thoughts are, TCM already had their instructions.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Tradition is far more a part of engineering and business than it should be. Just because “we’ve always done it that way” doesn’t mean you should continue. But alas, they do.
 
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