Multiple approaches in one flight plan (IFD feature)

Martin Pauly

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Martin Pauly
One of the Avidyne IFD features that stands out is the ability to include multiple approaches in a flight plan, to the same airport or different ones. I just made this video where I discuss a couple of different use cases - practice approaches, and pre-loading a "backup approach" at your destination.

I am very curious what other people do with this feature. I know the big airplanes have this in their FMS, but I haven't seen much discussion on what light GA pilots use it for.

Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts and ideas.

- Martin

 
I wish the perspective avionics could do this. It’s very useful if you are out shooting multiple approaches for practice.
 
seems like a nice feature to have. on the gtn650 I find it's pretty easy to just hit direct to my next airport, then load the approach using the appropriate transition. pretty quick and easy. on the ifd can you load more than 2 approaches? that would be real handy when I'm banging out 3 or 4 or more in a row.
 
Good video Martin. I know some of your videos are out of sequence because they still show the 530. When did you start using FF? Seems like you normally use WingX?
 
seems like a nice feature to have. on the gtn650 I find it's pretty easy to just hit direct to my next airport, then load the approach using the appropriate transition. pretty quick and easy. on the ifd can you load more than 2 approaches? that would be real handy when I'm banging out 3 or 4 or more in a row.

On the 430 if you have a round robin programmed in, and you're doing an approach, it will normally show the procedures for the last airport in the flight plan. But if you hit PROC, then select approach, but then push MENU/MENU, a menu comes up with the option "Select Next FPL Apt?" and then ENTER it brings up the procedures for the next airport in the flight plan.
 
seems like a nice feature to have. on the gtn650 I find it's pretty easy to just hit direct to my next airport, then load the approach using the appropriate transition. pretty quick and easy. on the ifd can you load more than 2 approaches? that would be real handy when I'm banging out 3 or 4 or more in a row.

Yes, you can load multiple approaches, not just 2.
 
It doesn't get me too worked up either way as it's a rather minor feature. But that's not a capability I'd be a big fan of, and not something you'll see in "bigger iron" (at least the bigger iron I fly, which isn't that big compared to airliners.) In the training environment it would seem to be a possible confusion generation point, picking the wrong approach from a pre-loaded list of multiple approaches.

The prevailing methodology up to this point has been "load an approach, complete an approach, load another approach." That's a good way to handle it from a task management perspective. With modern Navigators it's easy to load one up very quickly.

I flew with an applicant once who wanted to pre-brief all the approaches we were going to fly on the ground, before we took off. In all my years of flying and instructing, I had never seen this before. I asked him if he could possibly remember the details of two approaches let alone three, up to an hour or so before he actually completed them all. He said "not really, but that's the way my instructor taught me so I'll save time up there." Of course when we got in the air I gave him a different approach to start, and then ATC denied one of the other three we had pre-selected. The plan changed, so it was all for nothing.

Doing too much "far" in advance doesn't pay off much in instrument flying. That would include loading multiple approaches based on an expectation you're going to get those approaches and in that order. Just my opinion... I could see there being other views on this, but that's mine.
 
Good video Martin. I know some of your videos are out of sequence because they still show the 530. When did you start using FF? Seems like you normally use WingX?
Brian, I upgraded to the IFDs last June. There's been a couple of videos out since then with footage from before the upgrade.
The switch from WingX to ForeFlight is more recent, this past December. WingX had broken some pretty important things when they introduced version 9 a year ago, and I saw no motivation in them to fix them.
There's a more detailed discussion over at BeechTalk: https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=175484
- Martin
 
It doesn't get me too worked up either way as it's a rather minor feature. But that's not a capability I'd be a big fan of, and not something you'll see in "bigger iron" (at least the bigger iron I fly, which isn't that big compared to airliners.) In the training environment it would seem to be a possible confusion generation point, picking the wrong approach from a pre-loaded list of multiple approaches.

The prevailing methodology up to this point has been "load an approach, complete an approach, load another approach." That's a good way to handle it from a task management perspective. With modern Navigators it's easy to load one up very quickly.
I guess that's a good word of advice - if the use of this feature causes confusion, then it's probably best to stick to the "one at a time" method. If it's used to set up a backup approach at my home airport or another one I'm very familiar with, that potential for confusion should be minimal.

- Martin
 
Thanks, Martin.

The IFD is definitely more graceful on this but I have been doing something similar with the GNS, GTN and G1000 (and it will probably work with all the newer Garmin navigators). You create the new flight plan in the flight plan catalog. @Martin Pauly talks about it in the context of practice, but think about its value in loading the approach to an alternate without messing with the current flight plan and nav guidance.

I demonstrated the Garmin methodology to my CFI on my last IPC. Loaded all three planned approaches before takeoff. He had never heard of it and wondered what would happen. He was surprised and impressed when I loaded, activated, and went D→ to the fix he instructed in less than 10 seconds.

On the comparative downside the Garmin requires an extra step - loading and activating the new plan, which, while pretty fast in the context of hanging approaches, takes more time. On the upside the current flight plan page only has the current approach which makes it a bit less likely one would activate the wrong fix or leg. I can see some pilots finding that a bit confusing but in the IFD, the pilot has a choice of methods the Garmin pilots do not have.

(And yes, you can put a next waypoint or series of waypoints after the approach in the Garmins, but not with a new approach without removing the current one)
 
...(And yes, you can put a next waypoint or series of waypoints after the approach in the Garmins, but not with a new approach without removing the current one)

not entirely accurate. you can load the next approach without having to remove the current one.
 
not entirely accurate. you can load the next approach without having to remove the current one.
Not an any of the Gamins I've seen. If you think I mean you have to manually remove it, I guess I was unclear. When you load the new approach, the system removes the current one (and the nav guidance you were using in the missed approach holding pattern). Point is, you an't have more than one approach loaded at a time in the currently active flight plan, as you can with the IFD.

Actually, "load" is also incorrect also since the only choice in that scenario is "activate"
 
Not an any of the Gamins I've seen. If you think I mean you have to manually remove it, I guess I was unclear. When you load the new approach, the system removes the current one (and the nav guidance you were using in the missed approach holding pattern). Point is, you an't have more than one approach loaded at a time in the currently active flight plan, as you can with the IFD.

Actually, "load" is also incorrect also since the only choice in that scenario is "activate"

also not entirely accurate. you can 'load' or 'load and activate'. but yes, loading/activating the next approach automatically removes the old approach. and I am only speaking for the 650, dunno about the other garmins.
 
also not entirely accurate. you can 'load' or 'load and activate'. but yes, loading/activating the next approach automatically removes the old approach. and I am only speaking for the 650, dunno about the other garmins.
That's interesting. Here's what I get when I try to load another approach when one is already active (result is different if the current one it is only loaded):
upload_2020-3-1_9-42-38.png
 
That's interesting. Here's what I get when I try to load another approach when one is already active (result is different if the current one it is only loaded):

let's assume we're doing a round robin to practice approaches at 6 different airports. upon going missed on the 1st approach, do a direct to the next airport. then you can load or load/activate the next approach, without having to manually delete the old approach, using the transition of your choosing. rinse/repeat for as many airports as you have in your flight plan.
 
let's assume we're doing a round robin to practice approaches at 6 different airports. upon going missed on the 1st approach, do a direct to the next airport. then you can load or load/activate the next approach, without having to manually delete the old approach, using the transition of your choosing. rinse/repeat for as many airports as you have in your flight plan.
Absolutely. Using a feature like the IFD or the catalog in the Garmins to load multiple legs and their approaches in advance is an option in the pilot toolbox. A choice, not a requirement.
 
@Martin Pauly - I end up with a gap between all approaches in the IFD Trainer app and I can select the first gap and clear/delete it to connect the missed from the 1st approach to the IAF of the second approach, but the subsequent gaps I cannot clear/delete. I’m wondering if it’s a quirk with the IFD Trainer app and if the actual IFD unit will behave differently?
 
@Martin Pauly - I end up with a gap between all approaches in the IFD Trainer app and I can select the first gap and clear/delete it to connect the missed from the 1st approach to the IAF of the second approach, but the subsequent gaps I cannot clear/delete. I’m wondering if it’s a quirk with the IFD Trainer app and if the actual IFD unit will behave differently?
I'll be interested in the answer. I just loaded three approaches to three different airports in the PC trainer and was able to remove all the gaps.
 
Not an any of the Gamins I've seen. If you think I mean you have to manually remove it, I guess I was unclear. When you load the new approach, the system removes the current one (and the nav guidance you were using in the missed approach holding pattern). Point is, you an't have more than one approach loaded at a time in the currently active flight plan, as you can with the IFD.

Actually, "load" is also incorrect also since the only choice in that scenario is "activate"
This is a bit unclear to me with my 430W. I had a problem with “confusion” after loading 2 or 3 different approaches into HPN one day. When I activated the last one, I was confused by all the fixes for the other loaded approaches that were showing up on the 430 and my Aspen that were not needed. In retrospect, what I should have done is deleted the approaches I was not using to avoid confusion. Fortunately, I was cleared for the visual.
 
This is a bit unclear to me with my 430W. I had a problem with “confusion” after loading 2 or 3 different approaches into HPN one day. When I activated the last one, I was confused by all the fixes for the other loaded approaches that were showing up on the 430 and my Aspen that were not needed. In retrospect, what I should have done is deleted the approaches I was not using to avoid confusion. Fortunately, I was cleared for the visual.
That's a good idea. The other thing which can help is naming them. I'm finding many don't realize it but if you scroll up to the default name the unit give an approach, yo can change it. If you clean out your catalog, no problem, but if it helps, it's like naming a user waypoint. It doesn't have to be anything special just something to make it stick out from the others. An enroute quickie like to load for an alternate after going missed) is to just give it an early letter/number so it goes to the top of the list (if I have time, I name them a it more descriptively).

upload_2020-3-2_12-35-19.png upload_2020-3-2_12-35-53.png
 
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