Missing logs from 50ish years ago

Todd82

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Todd
A 1969 Cherokee, but the first few years of logs are missing as they pick up in the 70's. Everything is complete since then. How big of a detriment should that be from the value? Engine has obviously been OH since then and 0 timed. What do you all think? Thanks.
 
Personally I wouldn't see it as a big issue as long as the rest of the logs are up to date and all of the AD's have been addressed. It might make a good negotiating point though.
 
A lot can happen in a year or so. Could have been an off field landing, ground loop, skid or spin on the ground or other damage to the plane and then repaired. Incomplete is incomplete. Would definitely expect it to impact value, maybe not as much as them being completely gone, but gaps in logbooks are never a good thing. At a minimum I'd take 15% off whatever the asking price is for incomplete logs.

You have to figure that this will also impact the buyer down the road when he/she tries to sell it too, so it's that future inconvenience factor of explaining it and then having to further discount the plane potentially.
 
I'm missing some really old logs. Didn't bother me buying the airplane. If it bothers a buyer when I go to sell that's his problem. Actually, I hope to fly well into my dotage and then the whole thing will be someone else's problem. Always gotta have a plan.
 
I just sold my 1973 Cessna 172... First 10 years of logs were missing. It brought $70,000 and I had 3 in line wanting it. Missing logs didn’t hurt the value any.... The 172 before that had missing logs. It sold the first day on the market. My 1940 J-3 was restored in 2014.... The logs start in 2014, everything before that is missing. I payed top dollar for it. Logs don’t bother me. As long as you have logs for last engine overhaul your good....
 
As long as part 39 is covered, and old ADs have been recorded you are good.


STC, are another issue the old modifications must be re-recorded - the FAA can assist
 
A lot can happen in a year or so. Could have been an off field landing, ground loop, skid or spin on the ground or other damage to the plane and then repaired. Incomplete is incomplete. Would definitely expect it to impact value, maybe not as much as them being completely gone, but gaps in logbooks are never a good thing. At a minimum I'd take 15% off whatever the asking price is for incomplete logs.

You have to figure that this will also impact the buyer down the road when he/she tries to sell it too, so it's that future inconvenience factor of explaining it and then having to further discount the plane potentially.
Incomplete logs from a half-century ago, with complete logs / AD compliance since, won't drop the price of most planes a penny, especially something like a 172. I don't really care if it was tweaked in 1969, if it's been flying OK since.
 
What do you all think?
It depends. While I always prefer complete logs when performing pre-buys, it's not always a deal breaker in my recommendation. Unfortunately, there's is no single bench mark to follow as every aircraft purchase is unique and subjective to the person buying it. A path I always recommend is have a pre-buy done then sit with your mechanic and discuss the pros/cons of the aircraft. Compare it to the current market and develop an offer. If complete log history is considered a premium to you then put a value on it and deduct it from the offer. Keep in mind some types of aircraft complete logs is the norm where as for other types it's the exception.
 
Incomplete logs from a half-century ago, with complete logs / AD compliance since, won't drop the price of most planes a penny, especially something like a 172. I don't really care if it was tweaked in 1969, if it's been flying OK since.
That was kind of my thought. If it was dinged up in 1969 obviously whatever repairs they did have been successful for 50 years. Plus when it was a brand new plane one would think the repairs would have been taken seriously, not a cheapo patch job like you might find someone doing to a plane of that vintage today.
 
I just sold my 1973 Cessna 172...

The market for 172s, 182s, and any cessna high wing seems to have gone parabolic. It's insane the prices those things are commanding. Also, a J3, cub or super cub commands a premium as well. Besides, tube and fabric are fairly easy to see structural issues.

Try that with a different model like a commanche.
 
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Am not. If someone is really that worried about what happened to the airplane from 1968 to 1972 he or she can find another.

Yes, precisely, and you don't get to sell your plane to that buyer. And the buyer pool / demand for your plane is "thusly" reduced, and the price goes down. So yeah, I'd say missing logs are your problem.
 
Think about it, Isn't the material condition of the logs a big part of the aircraft, all part of the consideration.
 
Try to use it yo get a better deal, real world it's a non issue.
 
The thing about missing log books, is the information you need to see may never have been put in the book anyway (i.e., undocumented damage repair.

50 years later with decades of complete logs? Very minor value hit, if any at all.
 
Think about it, Isn't the material condition of the logs a big part of the aircraft, all part of the consideration.

I agree. It’s all part of the overall equation. Do I care much about 50 year old missing logs? No. But for the exact same plane, exact same condition, exact same equipment, but one has missing logs and one doesn’t, will I pay the same price for them both? Also no.
 
Yes, precisely, and you don't get to sell your plane to that buyer. And the buyer pool / demand for your plane is "thusly" reduced, and the price goes down. So yeah, I'd say missing logs are your problem.
Lots of buyers. Selling airplanes is a pain, but it isn't problematic. I am always up front about any squawks. I'd rather loose someone up front than after inspections and negotiations. I've yet to meet anyone that alarmed by a few years of missing logs from decades past.

I agree. It’s all part of the overall equation. Do I care much about 50 year old missing logs? No. But for the exact same plane, exact same condition, exact same equipment, but one has missing logs and one doesn’t, will I pay the same price for them both? Also no.

I doubt strongly you will every find two airplanes exactly the same unless they are brand spanking new.
 
Umm... @steingar I wasn’t being literal. It’s a thought experiment that makes the point.
 
Also depends on the airframe

Mightn’t get you a discount on a 172/PA28

Doubt it on a PA18, DHC2, U206
 
Umm... @steingar I wasn’t being literal. It’s a thought experiment that makes the point.
And I made mine. Aircraft valuation involves lots and lots of factors. I have the feeling a corrosion free airframe and some decent avionics are gong to have a much larger effect on value than missing logs from the 1970s.
 
Incomplete logs from a half-century ago, with complete logs / AD compliance since, won't drop the price of most planes a penny, especially something like a 172. I don't really care if it was tweaked in 1969, if it's been flying OK since.

Disagree. Incomplete is incomplete. You still have to put SOMEWHERE on the listing that logs are incomplete when you re-sell it, or if you don't the buyer will eventually figure it out with a pre-buy. While that may not matter for SOME people, you will chase off potential buyers with the "logs incomplete" or not available before "X" date. Doesn't matter if it's a year or 10 years.

To overcome that you have to be willing to offer a discount to offset the inconvenience. Or, just sit around and wait for someone to roll the dice on that missing time period. Like I said, a LOT can happen in a year. Being old is not an excuse. I owned a 1965 Cherokee with complete logs all the way back to 1965 and guess what? First year it rolled out it had a skin repair on one of the wings. That was a minor thing, but imagine an engine tear down because some buyer pranged it right out of the factory.

@Brad Z logs are an integral part of the aircraft, as much as the prop or engine. You are selling something incomplete when you don't have the proper documentation. It's not a small part either. Similar situation, think about a car with an accident history, however minute. I had a hit and run on my leased vehicle, it was completely superficial, buffed out, no damage. But that accident is on that car's history forever now. ANY time I have to deal with selling it, or trading it in, etc, I have to deal with the inevitable headache of explaining the situation and then trying to combat the arguments that it isn't worth as much as a car with no accident history.

There are people who would be willing to overlook a year of missing history, but to make a broad sweeping statement that a year of history is no big deal, or won't affect value is just not realistic. Of course it will affect value, of course it will affect price and of course it will affect resale maybe not to you, but to some potential buyers..definitely.
 
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Of course it will affect value, of course it will affect price and of course it will affect resale maybe not to you, but to some potential buyers..definitely.
Curious. Define "some potential buyers." Based on my experience, and outside the 91.417 requirements, incomplete logs were involved in over 50% of the pre-buys I performed. However, in less than 10% of those was a value put on those missing logs. So if you are talking losing on 1 out of 10 potential buyers then it becomes more moot as that falls within any of the particulars, e.g. wrong paint color, corrosion, high times, etc., that may lead someone to not buy an aircraft. Wanting a complete aircraft history is great, and my preference, but the market as a whole doesn't put a substantial value on missing logs so I think the broad statement above is more realistic than not.
 
I just sold my 1973 Cessna 172... First 10 years of logs were missing. It brought $70,000 and I had 3 in line wanting it. Missing logs didn’t hurt the value any.... The 172 before that had missing logs. It sold the first day on the market. My 1940 J-3 was restored in 2014.... The logs start in 2014, everything before that is missing. I payed top dollar for it. Logs don’t bother me. As long as you have logs for last engine overhaul your good....

Like everything else, it depends. I bought my '69 172 a few years ago, and it's missing log #1. Have 3 other books since then. First owner was Embry Riddle in FL. I went to the FAA website and paid for the bundle of records/337s/registrations/liens/etc that they had on file. Nothing out of the ordinary in there..I'm about the 8th owner. I find that it's usually the first plane owner that gets wrapped around the axle regarding having all the logs in place. If you've owned a plane before, yeah, it's nice to have a book full of the normal 'drained oil, serviced battery, etc' entries, but, if there's no 337s covering extensive repairs...figure missing the first log is worth a couple grand off the price (and my purchase price of the plane reflected it...still wasn't cheap, but...)

Heck, the plane is 50 some years old at this point, all the ADs are done, W&B is up to date, the wings and fuselage are dripping Corrosion-X out of the seams and the compressions are good. And all except the aforementioned first time buyers have made unsolicited offers to buy 79975...Thinking of trading up to a PA24 in the next few months...and the deal more than covers my original purchase price, interior refurb and avionics upgrade within reason.

IMO, it's up to the buyer to make the decision. Either way, if the majority of the books are in order...do you REALLY care that a belly skin was replaced in 1965 due to a landing gear collapse if it's been trucking along since then with no problem? Some people will (and the price does reflect it...), most who have an understanding of the total cost of ownership and maintenance requirements will do their due diligence and decide yay or nay based on the current condition and record as it sits. Besides, finding a ride that has NOT had some prang or incident 50 or 60 years down the road right now...well, every log I look through in looking for a new ride has SOMETHING in there that would scare off an un-sophisticated first-timer.
 
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Disagree. Incomplete is incomplete. You still have to put SOMEWHERE on the listing that logs are incomplete when you re-sell it, or if you don't the buyer will eventually figure it out with a pre-buy. While that may not matter for SOME people, you will chase off potential buyers with the "logs incomplete" or not available before "X" date. Doesn't matter if it's a year or 10 years.

To overcome that you have to be willing to offer a discount to offset the inconvenience. Or, just sit around and wait for someone to roll the dice on that missing time period. Like I said, a LOT can happen in a year. Being old is not an excuse. I owned a 1965 Cherokee with complete logs all the way back to 1965 and guess what? First year it rolled out it had a skin repair on one of the wings. That was a minor thing, but imagine an engine tear down because some buyer pranged it right out of the factory.

@Brad Z logs are an integral part of the aircraft, as much as the prop or engine. You are selling something incomplete when you don't have the proper documentation. It's not a small part either. Similar situation, think about a car with an accident history, however minute. I had a hit and run on my leased vehicle, it was completely superficial, buffed out, no damage. But that accident is on that car's history forever now. ANY time I have to deal with selling it, or trading it in, etc, I have to deal with the inevitable headache of explaining the situation and then trying to combat the arguments that it isn't worth as much as a car with no accident history.

There are people who would be willing to overlook a year of missing history, but to make a broad sweeping statement that a year of history is no big deal, or won't affect value is just not realistic. Of course it will affect value, of course it will affect price and of course it will affect resale maybe not to you, but to some potential buyers..definitely.
I don't disagree that missing logs affect the value, but how did you get to the 15% figure? Why not 5% or 30%?
I'd be interested to here a professional appraiser's assessment of a few years of missing logs in a 50 year old airplane.

I'll share a story: I bought my '75 182P with the first 10 years of airframe logs missing. I wasn't too concerned as I had a comprehensive inspection of the aircraft. I think I targeted about $5k discount on the calculated value of the plane. The broker I was dealing with negotiated hard on the price. As the plane was in much better condition all around than other comparable planes with more complete logs, I ended up going $2k over my target price, so effectively a discount of $3k (on an $85k airplane). Sure, logs were a negotiation point, but only a piece of the whole pie.

After about four years of ownership I get a letter from a completely unrelated broker asking if Instill owned my 182...if so he wanted to let me know he was going through the logs of another aircraft and stumbled across an old logbook of my plane and was happy to mail them to me. What luck! He wouldn't even let reimburse him for postage.

On the day the package showed up, I had a momentary feeling of concern: would the logs include stuff I don't want to know:, i.e. major damage, a tach and Hobbs meter replaced after 16,000 undocumented flight hours? Or worse?

Thankfully there was none of that. Just routine maintenance, annuals, and even a picture of the plane shortly after delivery from the factory in its original paint.

The logs will definitely make it easier to sell, no question about that. I'm not convinced it was worth 15% of the cost of the airplane. As these planes get older, complete logs will become less and less common. Ultimately the market will decide what the effect on value is.

When you think about it though, the true value of the plane's logs is what is in the logs. There are probably a few airplanes that could fetch more money if they owners chucked the aircraft logs in the garbage, particularly if the logs were poorly organized, things don't add up, gratuitous damage, etc.
 
Curious. Define "some potential buyers." Based on my experience, and outside the 91.417 requirements, incomplete logs were involved in over 50% of the pre-buys I performed. However, in less than 10% of those was a value put on those missing logs. So if you are talking losing on 1 out of 10 potential buyers then it becomes more moot as that falls within any of the particulars, e.g. wrong paint color, corrosion, high times, etc., that may lead someone to not buy an aircraft. Wanting a complete aircraft history is great, and my preference, but the market as a whole doesn't put a substantial value on missing logs so I think the broad statement above is more realistic than not.

Ok....Aircraft buyer market as a whole = buyers. People who want complete logs = some of that market and some of those are potential buyers for your aircraft.

Your market and the pre-buys you did may drive you (or your customers) to either put a value on logs or not, but that 1/10 ratio only applies to YOU and your experiences.

If you look at the entire market, I'm certain it's more than 1/10 and THAT is probably highly subjective based on the plane you are buying, your emotional attachment to that plane regardless of missing logs, and a crapload of other factors. And hey, maybe no one makes a big deal out of it (or cares) for a 25K-30K aircraft from 50+ years ago.

All I'm saying is that I think it "should" affect value. The seller should expect to discount the plane and the buyer should expect a discount on it. It should also be a consideration in price not just for the people involved in the immediate sale, but downstream as well because that plane may get sold again. It's a transferrable hassle.

Two planes on a ramp, exact same everything. Both are listed at the same price. One has complete logs, one doesn't. Given the choice I believe most people would pick the one with complete logs. If you want a buyer to purchase the one that DOESN'T have complete logs, you better believe a discount is going to be in order.

As @Brad Z illustrated though, many factors can play into what value those logs actually have to the potential buyer. He was willing to overlook 10 years of logs for a deal due to market availability for that aircraft, that is a factor of course.
 
I don't disagree that missing logs affect the value, but how did you get to the 15% figure? Why not 5% or 30%?
I'd be interested to here a professional appraiser's assessment of a few years of missing logs in a 50 year old airplane.

I'll share a story: I bought my '75 182P with the first 10 years of airframe logs missing. I wasn't too concerned as I had a comprehensive inspection of the aircraft. I think I targeted about $5k discount on the calculated value of the plane. The broker I was dealing with negotiated hard on the price. As the plane was in much better condition all around than other comparable planes with more complete logs, I ended up going $2k over my target price, so effectively a discount of $3k (on an $85k airplane). Sure, logs were a negotiation point, but only a piece of the whole pie.

After about four years of ownership I get a letter from a completely unrelated broker asking if Instill owned my 182...if so he wanted to let me know he was going through the logs of another aircraft and stumbled across an old logbook of my plane and was happy to mail them to me. What luck! He wouldn't even let reimburse him for postage.

On the day the package showed up, I had a momentary feeling of concern: would the logs include stuff I don't want to know:, i.e. major damage, a tach and Hobbs meter replaced after 16,000 undocumented flight hours? Or worse?

Thankfully there was none of that. Just routine maintenance, annuals, and even a picture of the plane shortly after delivery from the factory in its original paint.

The logs will definitely make it easier to sell, no question about that. I'm not convinced it was worth 15% of the cost of the airplane. As these planes get older, complete logs will become less and less common. Ultimately the market will decide what the effect on value is.

When you think about it though, the true value of the plane's logs is what is in the logs. There are probably a few airplanes that could fetch more money if they owners chucked the aircraft logs in the garbage, particularly if the logs were poorly organized, things don't add up, gratuitous damage, etc.

I too would be interested in learning what the market bears today with regards to missing logs from a professional standpoint...15% is significant enough of a number to start a discussion. Given two aircraft of similar value, one has complete logs and the other doesn't, I don't see how someone could expect the same for both. Start at 15% and maybe you get beat up down to 5% or 10%. If you know the plane's history outside of the paperwork, then who cares..it's the stuff you DON'T know, which you mentioned in your example that can come back to haunt you.

Knocking 10K off an 80K aircraft which is about 12.5% for logs seems perfectly acceptable as a buyer, because now I have that money to fix any surprises that you didn't know about in that black hole of a time period that decide to manifest themselves while I am an owner. Maybe it's an AD that hasn't been complied with, or any other of the things you mentioned above. That's also highly dependent on the age of the plane, the amount of time missing, asking value, subsequent maintenance in documented years, etc.

Don't want to discount the price at all? Fine, I can move on, I'll let someone else roll the dice. It's when you get emotional and attached to a sale that you start compromising and rationalizing the missing time as "OK" instead of a real potential problem.

And yes I do agree that the content of the logs is super important. Simply having a logbook with cryptic or indecipherable documentation does no one any good, but at least they are "complete", whatever that means.

Glad it worked out for you in the end though, that's a great story :).
 
And hey, maybe no one makes a big deal out of it (or cares) for a 25K-30K aircraft from 50+ years ago.
Key point which I believe sums up the answer to the OP's question and other similar discussions on PoA--which "should" represent a cross-section of the market we are discussing. Just need to up your limit to 100K.;)
 
I too would be interested in learning what the market bears today with regards to missing logs from a professional standpoint...15% is significant enough of a number to start a discussion. Given two aircraft of similar value, one has complete logs and the other doesn't, I don't see how someone could expect the same for both. Start at 15% and maybe you get beat up down to 5% or 10%. If you know the plane's history outside of the paperwork, then who cares..it's the stuff you DON'T know, which you mentioned in your example that can come back to haunt you.

Knocking 10K off an 80K aircraft which is about 12.5% for logs seems perfectly acceptable as a buyer, because now I have that money to fix any surprises that you didn't know about in that black hole of a time period that decide to manifest themselves while I am an owner. Maybe it's an AD that hasn't been complied with, or any other of the things you mentioned above. That's also highly dependent on the age of the plane, the amount of time missing, asking value, subsequent maintenance in documented years, etc.

Don't want to discount the price at all? Fine, I can move on, I'll let someone else roll the dice. It's when you get emotional and attached to a sale that you start compromising and rationalizing the missing time as "OK" instead of a real potential problem.

And yes I do agree that the content of the logs is super important. Simply having a logbook with cryptic or indecipherable documentation does no one any good, but at least they are "complete", whatever that means.

Glad it worked out for you in the end though, that's a great story :).

How can you tell if the price of a plane has been discounted?
 
How can you tell if the price of a plane has been discounted?

Getting the Vref value for it would be one way. Or compare it to similar makes and years. Generally if you've been looking at them for a while you should have some idea of the range they go for. If you see something outside of that range you may ask "why"? I've seen heavily discounted planes due to missing logs like half the value they should be for similar aircraft. Granted that is for missing logs entirely, like someone threw them in the trash and gave up. For aircraft where logs are missing before XXXX year I've seen listings drop a few thousand at least from what would be a fair market value.
 
It might be an issue on that particular plane if the spar AD is issued. I believe one criteria for the AD to apply is “missing logs”.
 
It might be an issue on that particular plane if the spar AD is issued. I believe one criteria for the AD to apply is “missing logs”.
Yes the"factored hours" or whatever it was called came to mind, considering it's a Cherokee 180.
 
I always had complete logs on my '78 172N. Then after I moved from Washington State to Arizona at the beginning of 2017, the first two airframe logbooks (1977-1997) inexplicably could not be found. My concern was somewhat mitigated by the fact that I had previously made complete photocopies of all the logs and had saved pdfs of them on the cloud and elsewhere.

Then about two years later, I got a phone call from the FBO that did the maintenance on the airplane when I lived in Washington State. They had found my logbooks among the logs of a CAP 172 that they worked on over the years, and that was coming up for auction. The logs arrived here by UPS a couple of days later.

Moral of the story ... make clear, legible photocopies of every page of everything, and store them in hard copy and electronically, six ways from Sunday. It's tedious, but it's worth it.
 
If the airplane is a good value and you want to buy it then you should pay your AI to verify the logs as they exist first. It will probably cost you a couple air bucks and they will likely advise you as to how that might affect some future resale depending upon how you fly the plane.
BTW odd that this subject should come up this week as I just heard in the hanger about some guy just getting a divorce and then his ex burning log books to the aircraft. And another voice heard shortly after 'wonder if she could have charges brought against her for destruction of government property?'.
 
FYI: aircraft logbooks are not "government property."
Unless the FAA authorized person has taken custom them. (include the NTSB ) include any accident records.

The big clue is if you got a government recipe for them
 
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FYI: aircraft logbooks are not "government property." post #38
Actually that comment came after many others amongst of which was something like- aren't log books considered to be a government document? but I could've heard something completely different as I have been told 'you never listen!' when I was sure I did.
 
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