Buying a plane at auction

SecondCycle

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SecondCycle
Hey folks,

Newbie in town but have always been interested in aviation and figure you folks know quite a bit about general aviation and buying/selling airplanes, so I'm hoping to pick your brain a bit if you'll allow.

1) Would you ever buy a plane via online auction without seeing the aircraft in person, under any circumstances?
2) What information do you wish more aircraft sellers would provide before you consider buying?
3) Are there any features that the online auction platform (i.e. eBay) would need to provide in order for you to feel comfortable bidding and winning an auction for an aircraft?
4) What kind of verification would you expect the platform to do prior to letting the seller list his or her aircraft for sale?
5) Would you ever consider selling your plane via an online auction platform dedicated to aviation?
6) If so, what expectations would you have of the platform?

I'm doing a research project for a school course and I'm trying to determine if such an aircraft marketplace is viable or if there are just too many risks.

Thank you for your attention! I'll send you all the paper once it's done, if there's interest haha :)
 
I would never buy a plane without inspecting it first.

If you are looking for a parts plane maybe something online would work

Logbooks are worth a lot, without them small things become big problems
 
Ebay motor sales are no longer a binding contract. You bid, and then inspect the item. If you don't like the item you forget the whole thing. I wouldn't have an issue buying a plane that way.
 
Well, cheap doesn’t necessarily mean low cost, it all depends. If one does get in at a lower level, more $$ available to bring things up to speed.

Buying a rodent infested ramp queen for cheap could get expensive very fast.
 
An acquaintance made a business out of this. Bought planes at auction, refurbished them and sold at market value. Was a decent gig, but for every 5 good ones you end up with a dog. Some eBay, mostly bankruptcy auctions. No emotion, hard bid limits.

For a newbie to buy his first plane: Ahh, probably not a good idea.
 
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Read this, learn it well, think of it often. There are no bargains in aviation.
 
1) Would you ever buy a plane via online auction without seeing the aircraft in person, under any circumstances?
2) What information do you wish more aircraft sellers would provide before you consider buying?
3) Are there any features that the online auction platform (i.e. eBay) would need to provide in order for you to feel comfortable bidding and winning an auction for an aircraft?
4) What kind of verification would you expect the platform to do prior to letting the seller list his or her aircraft for sale?
5) Would you ever consider selling your plane via an online auction platform dedicated to aviation?
6) If so, what expectations would you have of the platform?
I assume you are asking about an airworthy aircraft up for auction. There have been online auctions for unairworthy project aircraft/salvage aircraft for years which I have participated in. But from a maintenance viewpoint, these are the answers I currently would recommend to an individual who was looking to buy.
1) No.
2) Online or in person? Online, copies of all the documentation. In person, everything.
3) Sight unseen? None.
4) As verification a fresh annual should be signed off along with a condition report.
5) As a pure auction platform, no.
6) N/A.
I'm doing a research project for a school course and I'm trying to determine if such an aircraft marketplace is viable or if there are just too many risks.
In this current market/generation I think it would be too risky. In the up and coming generations potentially viable. For example, younger people now buy vehicles on line in a retail environment and have fresh boxed ingredients shipped to their homes so they can cook a meal. Twenty years ago there was no or a very limited market in this. So if GA in general survives through the next 20 years as to its viability, especially if a new owner-maintained category is created, then those individuals may be more inclined to purchase airworthy aircraft through a online auction site. However, considering how things have gone, and are going, perhaps you may want to pursue an auction site sight that sells nothing but drones.;)
 
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Anyone asking those questions would be wise to hire someone to help them buy an airplane.
 
Well, I'll probably get yelled at for this, but, Question 3 triggered one of my pet peeves. Auctions are not a competition and when I buy something at auction I don't feel like I won anything, I just bought something that I thought was worth the money to me. When you make it a competition, and have to beat the other guy, you don't win, you loose.
 
I swear I've responded to like two dozen of these "omg hi im new here and doing a research paper for my aviation degree" threads here and elsewhere, and never once has the miscreant gotten back to me with their 'research' or poll results or even a copy of their paper, despite promises. They get their C- and then they F off forever. The parasitism annoys me to no end.

I'd love to find the professor who keeps giving the assignment "go pester communities you're not a part of, leech free information and opinions, and submit it to me for grading" and wring their neck.

I suspect I feel this way because of my economics teachers and the tanstaafl lessons I took to heart.

/grumpf
 
I swear I've responded to like two dozen of these "omg hi im new here and doing a research paper for my aviation degree" threads here and elsewhere, and never once has the miscreant gotten back to me with their 'research' or poll results or even a copy of their paper, despite promises. They get their C- and then they F off forever. The parasitism annoys me to no end.

I'd love to find the professor who keeps giving the assignment "go pester communities you're not a part of, leech free information and opinions, and submit it to me for grading" and wring their neck.

I suspect I feel this way because of my economics teachers and the tanstaafl lessons I took to heart.

/grumpf

:D:D:D Tell me how you really feel!

Hopefully I'll do better than a C- on this one. Need some more replies (more data) before I can hope for that, but I'll try. Just genuinely curious if such a platform would be viable. I see people bidding on planes (at least some of those folks probably have never seen the aircraft in person) quite a bit, so I guess at least some people do it?
 
:D:D:D Tell me how you really feel!

Hopefully I'll do better than a C- on this one. Need some more replies (more data) before I can hope for that, but I'll try. Just genuinely curious if such a platform would be viable. I see people bidding on planes (at least some of those folks probably have never seen the aircraft in person) quite a bit, so I guess at least some people do it?

Heh. I had actually intended to answer your questions while pouring you a glass of vitriol. Let me fix that error on my part:


1) Would you ever buy a plane via online auction without seeing the aircraft in person, under any circumstances?

Yes. I have bought 2 aircraft this way, however, both were on eBay which is non-binding. I would have purchased one under binding terms ("deal was too good"), but not the other.

I have also bought 4 planes at in-person auctions where the planes were on display, but there was minimal time to do due diligence (brief look in logbooks and no invasive inspections of the planes themselves)

2) What information do you wish more aircraft sellers would provide before you consider buying?

Aircraft sellers who suck at aircraft selling universally leave out:

Photos. Lots of them. There is no excuse for listing a plane without at least a dozen photos each of interior, exterior, avionics, and engine compartment.

Scanned logs.

A listed price. $CALL is not a price.

A willingness to answer questions from dummies.

(Buyers suck too, holy mother of mcferrin, there are a lot of dummies out there who call plane sellers just to have a friend or jabber endlessly or score free rides)

3) Are there any features that the online auction platform (i.e. eBay) would need to provide in order for you to feel comfortable bidding and winning an auction for an aircraft?

eBay's lack of buyer binding already provides everything I need to state my price for 'dibs', and then arrange to see/inspect the thing if needed to further conduct business.

4) What kind of verification would you expect the platform to do prior to letting the seller list his or her aircraft for sale?

Proof of Registered owner, and as much IP/MaxMind/Geolocation as you could manage about where the listing originated in the world. For example, I don't wish to purchase a plane online from Lagos. :D

A stretch goal might be for the platform to arrange the actual photography of the plane and logs. That way we get 'current dating pics' and not high school yearbook pics from 1987 and when they had hair.

5) Would you ever consider selling your plane via an online auction platform dedicated to aviation?

Sure, if I thought I would get maximum exposure and price that way.

6) If so, what expectations would you have of the platform?

The larger the audience, the more likely I am to sell a nice plane there.

It's generally accepted that people sell nice planes on controller and trade-a-plane, decent planes on ASO, and junk on barnstormers and eBay.

An online plane auction house, IMHO, would need to be known for quality sellers, to get the eyeballs, and will also need to be known for high-paying buyers, to get the sellers. chicken, egg, etc.


Good luck with your project ;)
 
It would need to be in plane sight for me to bid on it.
 
Anyone asking those questions would be wise to hire someone to help them buy an airplane.

minimally find a “mentor”. I had one gentlman help me a lot in shopping. When i started i was geeked when i found one with only 200 hours since OH, he has me ask them when, when I found out 1962, he explained to me there was more than just that number... and things like that... he didnt tell me what plane to buy but taught me what ones not to buy...
 
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If your plan is to get rich off building the next e-bay, find something else, like something with cat videos. The GA aircraft market is small and auctions are a small portion of that market.
 
Well, I'll probably get yelled at for this, but, Question 3 triggered one of my pet peeves. Auctions are not a competition and when I buy something at auction I don't feel like I won anything, I just bought something that I thought was worth the money to me. When you make it a competition, and have to beat the other guy, you don't win, you loose.
But...but...there are no participation trophies for auctions, so you HAVE to win in order to have any self-worth at all!:rolleyes:
 
My guess is the OP has not gained any permission for use of human subjects in his research, nor has he really done anything to achieve informed consent. If I find out who the faculty is who sent the OP on his little quest I might consider writing some rather harshly worded letters...
 
I'm willing to answer all questions above to the highest bidder.

Starting bid, 1 AMU.

Or buy them now, for 1.1 AMU
 
I don’t believe human subjects approval is required for a survey of this nature.

https://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/regulations-and-policy/decision-charts/index.html#c2
Have your served on an IRB? Informed consent is required for all federally funded research ion human subjects. While the student’s advisor might not have any federal funding, I promise you lots runs through his school for which they have made assurances the OP is breaking. Hence if I find out the advisor of this student I’m dropping a dime.
 
Hey folks,

Newbie in town but have always been interested in aviation and figure you folks know quite a bit about general aviation and buying/selling airplanes, so I'm hoping to pick your brain a bit if you'll allow.

1) Would you ever buy a plane via online auction without seeing the aircraft in person, under any circumstances? NO Unless it is a incredulous deal, I would not buy something with out first seeing, touching, and flying it...

2) What information do you wish more aircraft sellers would provide before you consider buying? the logs, as many photos as possible, and a quick over all inspection recommendations sheet... that is once you buy this aircraft you're going to need to.........

3) Are there any features that the online auction platform (i.e. eBay) would need to provide in order for you to feel comfortable bidding and winning an auction for an aircraft? Follow the eBay model... I have used them a lot for stuff in the past... even bought a car, but I looked at it first before the final purchase..

4) What kind of verification would you expect the platform to do prior to letting the seller list his or her aircraft for sale? Have an inspection done and come up with a list of what needs to be focused on ... as we all know a pre-buy and an annual are two different things.. If I saw a listing detailing what is wrong and what needs to be looked after by a neutral third party this would help with establishing my comfort level

5) Would you ever consider selling your plane via an online auction platform dedicated to aviation? Depends on the service charge

6) If so, what expectations would you have of the platform?

I'm doing a research project for a school course and I'm trying to determine if such an aircraft marketplace is viable or if there are just too many risks.

Thank you for your attention! I'll send you all the paper once it's done, if there's interest haha :)

Over a few beers a while back we came up with a similar idea.... then we realized there is something called eBay and the other planes for sale websites....
 
Have your served on an IRB? Informed consent is required for all federally funded research ion human subjects. While the student’s advisor might not have any federal funding, I promise you lots runs through his school for which they have made assurances the OP is breaking. Hence if I find out the advisor of this student I’m dropping a dime.

Please cite a HHS enforcement case where an open ended internet market survey posted by a student was grounds for action against a school or the students advisor.
 
Have your served on an IRB? Informed consent is required for all federally funded research ion human subjects. While the student’s advisor might not have any federal funding, I promise you lots runs through his school for which they have made assurances the OP is breaking. Hence if I find out the advisor of this student I’m dropping a dime.

Yes, actually I have served on an IRB and my primary work when I was gathering recordings was in human epilepsy patients.

There are a number of exemptions that might apply depending on the exact circumstances here. The link I posted notes what these are (possibly 45 CFR 46.101 b 2). In general, a non-invasive survey which does not inquire about protected health information or other sensitive matters will be an expedited approval, if not exempt. There is usually a quick administrative interpretation if exempt.

But if there is a serious question and if the survey seems to be violating someone’s safety or rights in any way, I am sure the board at the institution would rather know than not.
 
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