Raptor Aircraft

All Y'all wishing him good luck and admiring him while he aint even flown this thing are part of the problem.

If everyone taunted him and finally convinced this fool to "Send it" and fly the thing...well then sounds like we would kill 2 birds with one stone. Literally. Cause this dude is about as smart as a dodo and Darwin is hard to avoid.

Cmon dude...Send it. Throttle up and pull back on the stick.
They put some lady in jail 'cuz she told he ex to commit suicide, and he did, so watch what you say.
I say: chop up the airframe, sell the mechanicals, get a real job.
 
All Y'all wishing him good luck and admiring him while he aint even flown this thing are part of the problem.

If everyone taunted him and finally convinced this fool to "Send it" and fly the thing...well then sounds like we would kill 2 birds with one stone. Literally. Cause this dude is about as smart as a dodo and Darwin is hard to avoid.

Cmon dude...Send it. Throttle up and pull back on the stick.

I don't think wishing ill on others does much good for GA, especially in the experimental/home-built arena. Most here wanted it to succeed, even if it just ended up being a one-off. I am all for schadenfreude when it comes to poor decisions, but not at the expense of the owner's life or other test pilot. I want the project to continue and for the Raptor to fly, but not until the builder has finally heeded the expert opinions on the design shortcomings and rectified them.
 
They put some lady in jail 'cuz she told he ex to commit suicide, and he did, so watch what you say.
I say: chop up the airframe, sell the mechanicals, get a real job.
How about the "Test Pilots" the guy is trying to kill by flying in his death tra...err ground breaking...wait thats kind of the same as death trap...um visionary aircraft?

Should he go up on murder charges when pieces fly off at altitude and kills someone? Not to mention he wants to sell this death trap to others? F%^&CK Him. And his 'Vision".
 
I don't think wishing ill on others does much good for GA, especially in the experimental/home-built arena. Most here wanted it to succeed, even if it just ended up being a one-off. I am all for schadenfreude when it comes to poor decisions, but not at the expense of the owner's life or other test pilot. I want the project to continue and for the Raptor to fly, but not until the builder has finally heeded the expert opinions on the design shortcomings and rectified them.

And Im all for one less plane crash to cause a bad rap for GA. If this idiot was an engineer and had good ideas...well lets say good way to get to his good ideas great. Lots fo people who 'know better' have tried to help and from what they say he wont listen. SO now after spending all this money and creating basically an un-airworthy POS we are supposed to keep encouraging him. Eff that. He should have hired some real engineers/designers and let them build his plane. He is one step beyond pure vaporware as he has built something. But its a flaming POS and he wont let the pros show him how to fix it.

Its a great scam...cause with the whole raise money...never create product...run off with money thing can get you thrown in jail. But if you raise money...create ****ty product....keep siphoning money off wont get you thrown in jail because you actually built something.
 
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From the Raptor site, quoted above: Using only push-rods will help to reduce any chance of flutter in the control surfaces.
Is that true? A friend had an aileron cable break in a Christen Eagle. The aileron just trailed straight back. Is it possible the Raptor guy doesn't even understand how flutter works?
 
From the Raptor site, quoted above: Using only push-rods will help to reduce any chance of flutter in the control surfaces.
Is that true? A friend had an aileron cable break in a Christen Eagle. The aileron just trailed straight back. Is it possible the Raptor guy doesn't even understand how flutter works?
It's fairly safe to infer that he does not understand how flutter works. And with his wildly flopping ailerons during taxi testing leading to broken landing gear, which he is addressing by adding weighted spades and replacing pulleys and cables, it is also likely that he still doesn't know much about flutter.
 
From the Raptor site, quoted above: Using only push-rods will help to reduce any chance of flutter in the control surfaces.
Is that true? A friend had an aileron cable break in a Christen Eagle. The aileron just trailed straight back.

I recall seeing a video of a trim tab cable breaking on a plane, in the Reno air races, I believe. Destructive flutter occurred in seconds.

Not sure if trim tab cable failure is far more dangerous that aileron cable failure. I'd think either can be dangerous, but don't know for sure.

Edited to add: found a video. It does blame the loss of the trim tab, but does not mention flutter.

 
Is it possible the Raptor guy doesn't even understand how flutter works?
Of course not! The guy is a raging idiot. I don't think he understands anything about planes.. he's the adult equivalent of an eight-year-old designing planes on Microsoft Paint
 
I recall seeing a video of a trim tab cable breaking on a plane, in the Reno air races, I believe. Destructive flutter occurred in seconds.

Not sure if trim tab cable failure is far more dangerous that aileron cable failure. I'd think either can be dangerous, but don't know for sure.

Edited to add: found a video. It does blame the loss of the trim tab, but does not mention flutter.

the loss of the ghost was caused by the loss of the trim tab connecting bolt. it did not involve flutter. in a nut shell, the P51 was not designed to fly at those speeds, so without modification the trim needed to be almost full nose down at race speed. I believe both voodoo and strega have had the incidence angles of the wing and tail re-done so that they run neutral trim at race speed. that mod had not been done on the ghost. so since it required large amounts of nose down trim at race speed, when the trim tab bolt came out, the trim tab departed the airframe and the loss of that nose down trim induced a very large pitch up moment to the aircraft. this also imparted a very large g- load on the airframe and pilot. its been a while since i read the report, but I believe that was the conclusion of the NTSB concerning flutter.
 
the loss of the ghost was caused by the loss of the trim tab connecting bolt. it did not involve flutter...its been a while since i read the report, but I believe that was the conclusion of the NTSB concerning flutter.
You are correct in that it was the trim tab departing that resulted in the terminal maneuver; however, the trim tab departed when it fluttered as a result of attaching bolts loosening, which the final report describes as reducing stiffness in the control system (hmmmm). Flutter is some scary ****, er, stuff. Not going to comment on applicability to the subject of this thread.

Nauga,
and a different kind of buzz job
 
How about the "Test Pilots" the guy is trying to kill by flying in his death tra...err ground breaking...wait thats kind of the same as death trap...um visionary aircraft?

Should he go up on murder charges when pieces fly off at altitude and kills someone? Not to mention he wants to sell this death trap to others? F%^&CK Him. And his 'Vision".
The test pilots are grown ups with enough knowledge to make their own decisions. They are free to decide whether to try and fly this thing. And I believe they have told this guy what needs to be fixed.

So nobody is "trying to kill" anybody.
 
Ghost did not have a standard P51 trim system. It was modified from dual trim tabs to a single tab system to reduce drag. The owner was warned that the loss of the single tab could be catastrophic. That’s exactly how it turned out.
 
You are correct in that it was the trim tab departing that resulted in the terminal maneuver; however, the trim tab departed when it fluttered as a result of attaching bolts loosening, which the final report describes as reducing stiffness in the control system (hmmmm). Flutter is some scary ****, er, stuff. Not going to comment on applicability to the subject of this thread.

Nauga,
and a different kind of buzz job
the trim tab might have departed because it fluttered, but I saw the tab depart AFTER the pitch up, not before. the loss of nose down trim is what cause the high g pitch up. if the aircraft had not required that amount of trim the loss of the trim tab would have been a non-event. one well know mustang racer would not use rudder trim during a race because he was worried about losing a rudder trim tab. it happened to him during a race and he did not even know it happened because he was holding rudder with his foot and not the trim tab.

that was not the first time that a trim tab departed a mustang on the course. it happend to hurricane hannah in voodoo a few years before, it resulted in the exact same pitch up except he came to during the pitch up and recovered the aircraft. The reason that I say flutter was not the cause, is that the only part that left the aircraft during the roll was the trim tab. flutter usually takes a lot of parts with it. I have seen three flutter incidents on the course at reno. one was miss ashley which was a total catastrophic failure of the airframe, the venture crash that cause failure of both horizontals and both elevators, and the F1 rocket that lost an elevator coming the shoot. what the NTSB said sounds good, but it does not line up with what a lot of us, saw happen right in front of us.
 
the trim tab might have departed because it fluttered, but I saw the tab depart AFTER the pitch up, not before. the loss of nose down trim is what cause the high g pitch up.
No argument with any of that, and I'll leave it at that.

Nauga,
who has seen small and large bits flutter
 
Ghost did not have a standard P51 trim system. It was modified from dual trim tabs to a single tab system to reduce drag. The owner was warned that the loss of the single tab could be catastrophic. That’s exactly how it turned out.
there is a lot to said of that, had there been two trim tabs, the total loss of trim might not have happened. however, it also did happen on voodoo and it had two tabs. so I really don't know if having a single tab made any difference. What I do know is that only having one tab did impart a twisting motion in the tail, you can see the oil canning in the aircraft in pictures on the course.
 
...I'll leave it at that.
Nope, can't do it...but it's a story, and a diversion from the thread.

who has seen small and large bits flutter
One of the 'small bits' flutter events was a small oscillatory vane mounted to an airplane and intended to excite different rigid-body and aeroelastic modes to test for flutter envelope clearance. They're built really rigid so they don't contaminate data with their own aeroelastic modes. The only part of the airplane that actually experienced aerodynamic flutter was...you guessed it, the vane.

Nauga,
like a wet dog
 
The test pilots are grown ups with enough knowledge to make their own decisions. They are free to decide whether to try and fly this thing. And I believe they have told this guy what needs to be fixed.

So nobody is "trying to kill" anybody.
I wish the world still worked like that but it doesn't. If enough people tell him that thing is a POS, people who know, and some climbs in a tries to fly it and dies. His family will sue.

If I was on that jury I'd vote to againt him.


Its great to try and push the envelop or be visionary. But for God's sake do an little math, or hire people who can. I doubt this guys even knows what Youngs Modulus is.
 
I think there are two different scenarios being outlined here:

First is the virtual loss of a trim tab. In a "normal", i.e. not a pylon racer, that could be a benign event, simply requiring some control pressure to compensate for the loss of trim.

Second is the loss of linkage to the trim tab. That is what can set up flutter as the tab is free to wag up and down in what can be a destructive cycle.

I think the flexibility exhibited in the aileron linkage in the Raptor is closer to the latter case.
 
I think there are two different scenarios being outlined here:

First is the virtual loss of a trim tab. In a "normal", i.e. not a pylon racer, that could be a benign event, simply requiring some control pressure to compensate for the loss of trim.

Second is the loss of linkage to the trim tab. That is what can set up flutter as the tab is free to wag up and down in what can be a destructive cycle.

I think the flexibility exhibited in the aileron linkage in the Raptor is closer to the latter case.
Per the final report of the trim tab incident, loss of rigidity in the trim tab resulted in flutter of the trim tab which in turn resulted in the loss of the trim tab. Loss of the trim tab resulted in the abrupt pullup as was described in this thread.

Nauga,
forensically
 
Nope, can't do it...but it's a story, and a diversion from the thread.

One of the 'small bits' flutter events was a small oscillatory vane mounted to an airplane and intended to excite different rigid-body and aeroelastic modes to test for flutter envelope clearance. They're built really rigid so they don't contaminate data with their own aeroelastic modes. The only part of the airplane that actually experienced aerodynamic flutter was...you guessed it, the vane.

Nauga,
like a wet dog

Put down the beer Nauga. You’re replying to yourself!:D
 
I wish the world still worked like that but it doesn't. If enough people tell him that thing is a POS, people who know, and some climbs in a tries to fly it and dies. His family will sue.

If I was on that jury I'd vote to againt him.


Its great to try and push the envelop or be visionary. But for God's sake do an little math, or hire people who can. I doubt this guys even knows what Youngs Modulus is.
I suggest you look up "intent" and "incompetence" in the dictionary.
 
I suggest you look up "intent" and "incompetence" in the dictionary.
It'd be better to look up culpable mental states in your state statutes. Here in AZ we have Intentionally, knowingly, recklessly and criminal negligence. If he were to fly it tommorow I'd say the builder has at least recklessl and negligence working against him for any future court proceedings. I'd also push for knowingly, given that qualified people are trying to give help and point out the issues and he's ignored them

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some of us have built planes that have flown.............

Hell, I could drive over there in 30 minutes. But fixing this aileron problem is just a ripple in the overall tsunami of problems with that project. Between the poorly executed and tested auto conversion, the excess weight, the ailerons..., there are (IMO) too many big problems to overcome with the resources at his disposal. So one of us fixing the ailerons wouldn't matter in the big picture.
 
the problem with this guy is that he thinks he's some kind of Lockheed Skunkworks caliber misunderstood genius aircraft designer pushing the envelope and is going to single-handedly launch general aviation into the next era.. when in reality, you actually can't design and build an airplane by thought experiment alone, and reject intelligent help from people and label them all 'naysayers' and haters

since it seems he has no problem with funding, what he should have done is drawn up some nice sketches, hire a graphic designer, then given that to a group of engineers.. do some work in xplane, extensive wind tunnel testing, build a proof-of-concept RC version and scale that up methodically.. etc

instead of just haphazardly gluing carbon fiber parts together, hoping for the best, and wondering why his contraption nearly shakes itself apart on a taxi test
 
the problem with this guy is that he thinks he's some kind of Lockheed Skunkworks caliber misunderstood genius aircraft designer pushing the envelope and is going to single-handedly launch general aviation into the next era.. when in reality, you actually can't design and build an airplane by thought experiment alone, and reject intelligent help from people and label them all 'naysayers' and haters

since it seems he has no problem with funding, what he should have done is drawn up some nice sketches, hire a graphic designer, then given that to a group of engineers.. do some work in xplane, extensive wind tunnel testing, build a proof-of-concept RC version and scale that up methodically.. etc

instead of just haphazardly gluing carbon fiber parts together, hoping for the best, and wondering why his contraption nearly shakes itself apart on a taxi test

There was a thread on Homebuiltairplanes.com where one of the guys who worked on the project posted about his experiences. Best I remember, they did real designs, flew a model, and did some engineering to start the project. But Peter ultimately started stepping in and over-ruling good engineering, demotivating the folks who were getting paid to help. So they (synopsis) turned into executors of his ideas, right up until they left the project ( I think the money ran out). Now, Peter is sitting there with very limited resources and a project that has some deep seated problems that are probably above his pay grade to retroactively solve.
 
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There was a thread on Homebuiltaircraft.com where one of the guys who worked on the project posted about his experiences. Best I remember, they did real designs, flew a model, and did some engineering to start the project. But Peter ultimately started stepping in and over-ruling good engineering, demotivating the folks who were getting paid to help. So they (synopsis) turned into executors of his ideas, right up until they left the project ( I think the money ran out). Now, Peter is sitting there with very limited resources and a project that has some deep seated problems that are probably above his pay grade to retroactively solve.
thanks, I thought I remember reading something about that, if I remember correctly the main dude was helping him was pretty discouraged and had some choice words
 
Hell, I could drive over there in 30 minutes. But fixing this aileron problem is just a ripple in the overall tsunami of problems with that project. Between the poorly executed and tested auto conversion, the excess weight, the ailerons..., there are (IMO) too many big problems to overcome with the resources at his disposal. So one of us fixing the ailerons wouldn't matter in the big picture.
Burt Rutan could come over to help and Peter would turn him away saying he knows what he's doing. His head is way too big for his own good.
 
While watching videos of the most recent debacle, the aileron control mess, I continue to marvel at the ridiculously inadequate pulley stands, fabricated from .090 carbon fiber sheet stock, and without regard to multiple load planes acting on them.

It makes one wonder what other surprises in critical structures are hiding. I recall a particular video where one wing was grasped at the end and shaken, and the other wing responded with huge up and down cycles. The lack of spanwise rigidity was alarming.
 
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I'm not condoning or condemning this guy, BUT I seriously doubt 99.9999% of the people on this board could even think of how to attempt what he is doing let alone accomplishing as much as he has, good or bad......

Hey now. Late to the thread but I can build all sorts of things that won’t fly and will kill people!! LOL.
 
It flew! For a few feet. And maybe an inch off the ground...


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The manner in which his "flight" was accomplished was dangerous as hell, but I wouldn't have expected less.
 
There was a thread on Homebuiltairplanes.com where one of the guys who worked on the project posted about his experiences. Best I remember, they did real designs, flew a model, and did some engineering to start the project. But Peter ultimately started stepping in and over-ruling good engineering, demotivating the folks who were getting paid to help. So they (synopsis) turned into executors of his ideas, right up until they left the project ( I think the money ran out). Now, Peter is sitting there with very limited resources and a project that has some deep seated problems that are probably above his pay grade to retroactively solve.

thanks, I thought I remember reading something about that, if I remember correctly the main dude was helping him was pretty discouraged and had some choice words

Wow did not know that backstory. Personally, I lost interest X number of taxi video's ago. Seems like tuning the Audi engine's ECM and take a taxi video is all he did for a long time.
 
:lol: I'm in no way surprised that he would call that a success
 
I was wondering when this would get resurrected. I'll be curious once the test pilots arrive I believe next week.
 
In case those have missed it. Here is its "flight."


The "flight" occurs at 9:40
 
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