My 1st and preferably the last VFR into IMC

Mohamed Ahmed

Mohamed Ahmed

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MAH
Hello, I’m writing this to share my VFR into IMC experience that I had last Saturday. It happened so quickly, and as a VFR only pilot, I was overwhelmed. It looks so different when you train on doing that and actually being there unplanned...

Thank you
Mohamed
 
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Looks like you inadvertently climbed up into it?
 
pretty even bases with great vis below. later you will learn about 3sm in haze that suddenly craps out to <1sm or entering clouds at night lol
 
Good time to learn when u have a CFI on board. It seems to me that he planned on having u do that.
not sure it’s a great vid to post as it’s a potential violation that could get u and CFI in trouble. Unless u were on an IFR flight plan
 
Maybe lesson 3, don’t fly into the cloud?

And lesson 4
8567-E38-B-7-E59-4727-87-F8-86748-F6-D9-C58.jpg
 
He (the voice on the intercom) is correct. You really need to react faster. You continued to climb nearly 200 feet after everything went white and nearly 400 feet after it was obvious you were going to enter the cloud. Also, more right rudder. ;)
 
benyflyguy said:
Good time to learn when u have a CFI on board. It seems to me that he planned on having u do that.
not sure it’s a great vid to post as it’s a potential violation that could get u and CFI in trouble. Unless u were on an IFR flight plan
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Agreed on all points. I just cannot believe the CFI did not notice they were going into that cloud. Also probably not a good idea to post video evidence on a public forum. Talking about stuff like this "hypothetically" is one thing... Showing it to the world with video evidence is another ball of worms entirely. o_O
 
Ryanb said:
Looks like you inadvertently climbed up into it?
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Yes, but the base reported on METAR as 2300 which is about 3600 MSL. The actual base was 2600 MSL. It was a mistake to depend on METAR


Thank you
Mohamed
 
benyflyguy said:
Good time to learn when u have a CFI on board. It seems to me that he planned on having u do that.
not sure it’s a great vid to post as it’s a potential violation that could get u and CFI in trouble. Unless u were on an IFR flight plan
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Well, it’s a learning experience that I wanted to share. I believe that many can learn from my mistake rather than has to experience it themselves...


Thank you
Mohamed
 
smv said:
He (the voice on the intercom) is correct. You really need to react faster. You continued to climb nearly 200 feet after everything went white and nearly 400 feet after it was obvious you were going to enter the cloud. Also, more right rudder. ;)
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That’s correct. I was taken by surprise for few seconds... I tried to to reduce throttle gradually but it was not enough


Thank you
Mohamed
 
smv said:
Agreed on all points. I just cannot believe the CFI did not notice they were going into that cloud. Also probably not a good idea to post video evidence on a public forum. Talking about stuff like this "hypothetically" is one thing... Showing it to the world with video evidence is another ball of worms entirely. o_O
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One of the reasons I record many of my flight as a hobby is that I learn something new from every flight. There is always something happening, and I felt ditching this experience under the rug has no value. Yes flying into clouds is a violation, but METAR was stating 3600 MSL. We didn’t expect the haze to change into IMC in seconds. Theoretically, we are still 1000 feet below the base. The CFI reacted professionally and got us out of there is seconds.

This video just show how fast and dangerous weather can deceive many pilots. Talking about it is one thing, experience it and see it is totally different story.


Thank you
Mohamed
 
smv said:
You did not SEE with your eyeballs the cloud base approaching?

o_O
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Again, METAR state’s base at 3600 MSL, and it changed from haze to IMC in seconds at 2600 MSL.

One of the lessons here is not to depend entirely on METAR as wether changes rapidly.


Thank you
Mohamed
 
Half Fast said:
Thanks for showing this. It's a good lesson and a good illustration of when the 180 degree turn won't help.

Suggest you file a NASA report just in case this video gets around too much.hû
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Good idea. Thank you. Will do


Thank you
Mohamed
 
Mohamed Ahmed said:
Again, METAR state’s base at 3600 MSL, and it changed from haze to IMC in seconds at 2600 MSL.

One of the lessons here is not to depend entirely on METAR as wether changes rapidly.


Thank you
Mohamed
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Flying ain’t paint by numbers.

Weather isn’t back and white, you need to use your eyeballs and common sense, a TON of flying is just common sense and observation, without that it’s going to be a hard road for you.
 
I’m not one to pile on, buuuutt James has a very good point. Don’t just continue a slow climb into the soup just because a METAR says the cloud base should be xyz. Eyes out, use common sense. And the CFI? If that was inadvertent, boy he’s not doing his job. Looks like you were climbing at VX up into the cloud(not to mention much less than that in the beginning, but ok, you’re learning) which is not where you want to be plunging into IMC “accidentally”. May be a learning experience for you, but the CFI should have gotten your nose down way before then.
 
Geosync said:
I’m not one to pile on, buuuutt James has a very good point. Don’t just continue a slow climb into the soup just because a METAR says the cloud base should be xyz. Eyes out, use common sense. And the CFI? If that was inadvertent, boy he’s not doing his job. Looks like you were climbing at VX up into the cloud(not to mention much less than that in the beginning, but ok, you’re learning) which is not where you want to be plunging into IMC “accidentally”. May be a learning experience for you, but the CFI should have gotten your nose down way before then.
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I agree. The weather conditions that day was below my minimum. I only have a little more than 100 hours and there are a lot to learn. The 2 things I learned in this incident is that I trust my eyes, and if something happens like this in the future I should react more quickly. Maybe I was a little relaxed having a CFI on my side, but still I’m the PIC.


Thank you
Mohamed
 
Additional thoughts:
-METARs age, between the time they are recorded, then noted by the pilot, then flown.
-While a TAF covers the “aerodrome” (area like 5 sq mi I think), the METAR just covers the location of the observation station...it may be different from one side of the airport fence to the other.
-Use adjacent airports to get area conditions now and to figure out what might be headed your way from 15-30 miles away.
 
Mohamed Ahmed said:
I agree. The weather conditions that day was below my minimum. I only have a little more than 100 hours and there are a lot to learn. The 2 things I learned in this incident is that I trust my eyes, and if something happens like this in the future I should react more quickly. Maybe I was a little relaxed having a CFI on my side, but still I’m the PIC.


Thank you
Mohamed
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Just curious, how far past your solo are you?
 
If you’re a student pilot and the CFI is in the right seat, he is the pilot in command.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Peter Anderson said:
If you’re a student pilot and the CFI is in the right seat, he is the pilot in command.
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If you are a still student after "a little more than 100 hours" maybe it is time to find a new hobby or a new instructor...?

:goofy:
 
Looks inadvertent to me. Can’t tell if you’re a student(it’s on CFI) or a certificated pilot(it’s on both of you). Video is no longer posted, but I think the METAR was showing broken 1800 and overcast 2300. So you were close to even reported clouds.

as a low time VFR pilot, it may be hard to judge how quickly you close to those clouds. They seem far and then you’re in them. In a matter of seconds. 70-80kts is a pretty significant closing speed, but doesn’t look that way until something is stationary next to you. You really need to pay close attention to where you are going with weather like that. Regardless what METAR says. Looks like you learned a good lesson.

CFI should know better.
 
smv said:
If you are a still student after "a little more than 100 hours" maybe it is time to find a new hobby or a new instructor...?

:goofy:
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If you are still a student with more than 100 hours that does not know not to climb into a cloud that’s right there in plain sight, well, this is not the hobby for you.

I hate being so blunt, but I don’t consider what happened in that video to be inadvertent. It was either intentional or showing complete lack of situational awareness. If you can’t avoid an object that fills the entire sky, how the heck are you going to avoid plowing into me, if I’m up there? I’m not going to be in the METAR either. That cloud did not appear out of nowhere, it didn’t move. You flew into it.

if you’re given a landing clearance and I’m broken down on the runway, are you going to crash into me because, hey, you got a clearance? Or are you going to not fly into me (or the cloud)? The METAR is not flying the plane, you are.
 
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Mohamed Ahmed said:
One of the reasons I record many of my flight as a hobby is that I learn something new from every flight. There is always something happening, and I felt ditching this experience under the rug has no value. Yes flying into clouds is a violation, but METAR was stating 3600 MSL. We didn’t expect the haze to change into IMC in seconds. Theoretically, we are still 1000 feet below the base. The CFI reacted professionally and got us out of there is seconds.

This video just show how fast and dangerous weather can deceive many pilots. Talking about it is one thing, experience it and see it is totally different story.


Thank you
Mohamed
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I missed this thread while the video was still up, but I gather you were in the cloud before you realized it was happening. As someone who once experienced that, I can definitely relate. In my case I wasn't climbing, the cloud base was slanting upward towards me, so I was flying into a lowering layer. But it's true that if you haven't seen that before (low time pilot), it's easy to miss the cues and misjudge just how close you are to the cloud base. You can think you are going to miss it, yet find yourself enveloped in just a few seconds. That's one of the reasons it is hard to know whether you are in compliance with the VFR cloud clearance rules unless you have reference terrain of known elevation in sight.

Good on the OP for getting the lesson while flying with a CFI instead of as PIC. Hopefully he will not forget it.
 
smv said:
Student: I posted the video from our flight on YouTube and linked it in a post a PoA!

CFI: You did WHAT????

:blush:
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Hopefully that part was also a lesson learned. Either the CFI is not doing his job making it clear what the mistakes were, or the OP isn't listening. There is no way a student pilot should be anywhere close to a situation where they inadvertently climb into a cloud deck like that. A wisp, sure, but not a solid cloud deck.
 
Salty said:
If you are still a student with more than 100 hours that does not know not to climb into a cloud that’s right there in plain sight, well, this is not the hobby for you.

I hate being so blunt, but I don’t consider what happened in that video to be inadvertent. It was either intentional or showing complete lack of situational awareness....
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Salty said:
...There is no way a student pilot should be anywhere close to a situation where they inadvertently climb into a cloud deck like that. A wisp, sure, but not a solid cloud deck.
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inadvertent adjective

Definition of inadvertent
1: UNINTENTIONAL
an inadvertent omission
2: not focusing the mind on a matter : INATTENTIVE

@Salty . Common, make up your mind. :). Seriously though, this is a definition of "inadvertent". I'm pretty sure neither CFI nor OP intended to go into the clouds. Yes, a lack of SI(isn't it always that by definition?) that led to inadvertent VFR into IMC. Not terribly unusual, unfortunately. Can be deadly. Also, hard to read situation by a pilot without experience(or even with experience). Now OP has some experience and hopefully takes away correct conclusions from it.
 
genna said:
inadvertent adjective

Definition of inadvertent
1: UNINTENTIONAL
an inadvertent omission
2: not focusing the mind on a matter : INATTENTIVE

@Salty . Common, make up your mind. :). Seriously though, this is a definition of "inadvertent". I'm pretty sure neither CFI nor OP intended to go into the clouds. Yes, a lack of SI(isn't it always that by definition?) that led to inadvertent VFR into IMC. Not terribly unusual, unfortunately. Can be deadly. Also, hard to read situation by a pilot without experience(or even with experience). Now OP has some experience and hopefully takes away correct conclusions from it.
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It's a matter of perspective. If you know something is going to happen and you do nothing to stop it from happening, I don't consider that inadvertent. I don't see how anybody with 100 hours of flight time (let alone a CFI) could look at that situation and not know they were going to go into that cloud.
 
Salty said:
It's a matter of perspective. If you know something is going to happen and you do nothing to stop it from happening, I don't consider that inadvertent. I don't see how anybody with 100 hours of flight time (let alone a CFI) could look at that situation and not know they were going to go into that cloud.
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That's because you've been flying for a long time. Honestly, it is very easy to misjudge how fast you are going to penetrate a broken layer that is all but invisible in haze with an overcast just above it. It's all just gray there.

CFI should know better. Maybe not even fly on the day like that. 100h VFR student/ppl? maybe, maybe not depending how often he has been exposed to it. I bet most experienced pilots can't accurately estimate distance to even highly visible clouds, let alone in conditions like this.

Point is, it was unintentional. Should they had known that they would fly into a cloud? Perhaps, but did they do it on purpose? I highly doubt it. And that's inadvertent by definition in a dictionary, your feelings notwithstanding.
 
genna said:
That's because you've been flying for a long time. Honestly, it is very easy to misjudge how fast you are going to penetrate a broken layer that is all but invisible in haze with an overcast just above it. It's all just gray there.

CFI should know better. Maybe not even fly on the day like that. 100h VFR student/ppl? maybe, maybe not depending how often he has been exposed to it. I bet most experienced pilots can't accurately estimate distance to even highly visible clouds, let alone in conditions like this.

Point is, it was unintentional. Should they had known that they would fly into a cloud? Perhaps, but did they do it on purpose? I highly doubt it. And that's inadvertent by definition in a dictionary, your feelings notwithstanding.
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Just curious if you saw the video before it was removed.
 
Salty said:
Just curious if you saw the video before it was removed.
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Yes

I thought it was by accident. But if CFI really did do it on purpose, then he’s an idiot
 
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I was up shooting approaches out of KCMA and KOXR on Sunday morning and the ceilings were reported at 1,500. It went IFR in haze well below that. By 500, visibility dropped to half and by 800 you could only see the ground out to about half the wingspan as viewed from the cockpit. Often times the clouds layers aren't as sudden as pilots often think, especially fog.
 
dreyna14 said:
I was up shooting approaches out of KCMA and KOXR on Sunday morning and the ceilings were reported at 1,500. It went IFR in haze well below that. By 500, visibility dropped to half and by 800 you could only see the ground out to about half the wingspan as viewed from the cockpit. Often times the clouds layers aren't as sudden as pilots often think, especially fog.
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I think one of the main causes of this incident is that there was no definite line for the overcast layer. Just haze that deteriorated rapidly at altitude that was not expected according to the METAR


Thank you
Mohamed
 
To the OP the lesson learned is many. Remember when you see those little wisps of cloud as you are climbing to a solid could deck you are going to be in the clag in seconds. It is hard looking at the solid and wondering when you are going to hit it. Stuff can drop fast. The caution sign was out. And it can happen that quickly. That was the sign. Not sure if CFI wanted you to do that or not.
 
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