Light Sport in 10,000 ft DA

rene86mx

rene86mx

Pre-takeoff checklist
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rene86mx
Hi,

I'm considering a light sport for the future but are a little concerned on my field's typical DA (even on the winter)

Do you think a Jabiru 250 with the 3300 or a CTSW would work for me?

My mission: just me and my wife (around 300 pounds) Typical 2-hour legs or 300-400 NM x-countries

Thanks
 
As long as you are talking about modern light sport planes they should be fine. I really like the Jabiru airplane designs but am still on the fence about their engines.
 
Sounds like you need the Rotax 914...
 
How long is the runway?
 
I suggest springing for a POH for whatever LSA(s) you're seriously interested in and looking at the performance charts for maximum climb rates and runway length requirements at various pressure altitudes and temperatures. Then compare the numbers with whatever non-LSA you fly that's comfortable for you in your high density altitude environment.
 
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Suggestion. There are flight schools in the Denver area which train in and rent light sport. Aspen at Centennial used to and still may, and there are a few others. Even if that's not in your area, a conversation with one of their instructors might give you some guidance.

I don't know your environmental details, I have taken off in a PiperSport/SportCruiser from a 3800' runway at over 10,000' D-Alt with my wife...after a pancake breakfast!
 
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Either should work for your mission. I also recommend the CT flier page.
 
rene86mx said:
Hi,

I'm considering a light sport for the future but are a little concerned on my field's typical DA (even on the winter)

Do you think a Jabiru 250 with the 3300 or a CTSW would work for me?

My mission: just me and my wife (around 300 pounds) Typical 2-hour legs or 300-400 NM x-countries

Thanks
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You should have adequate performance for take off, but wind shear and turbulence is a different story.
 
I have quite a bit of experience behind a Tecnam P2008 equipped with a Rotax 914 all over the state of Idaho. The highest DA I’ve taken off from was about 10,000ft and it was climbing at 750 FPM. The highest I had it was 13,800ft with 3/4 tanks and a bigger passenger. It performs really well even with the laminar flow airfoil it uses. It also handles rotors and turbulence very well for its size. And I’ll also add that it’s the nicest handling airplane I’ve ever flown.

I’ve also flown a SkyCatcher with DA’s approaching 8,000ft and it did pretty well too. Had it up to 13,000ft but can’t climb 300fpm at those altitudes like the turbo P2008 could. Gotta love the 914!
 
...with your wife being 300 lb considering keeping her wing empty....o_Oo_Oo_Oo_O
 
rene86mx said:
Runway is 4,265 ft
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That’s an incredibly long runway for a Light Sport, many of which need in the vicinity of 500’ to become airborne at SL. Terrain must be considered of course, since climb rate may be a bit anemic at high DA’s. And one needs to always consider wind flow over higher terrain - downdrafts can easily result in negative rates-of-climb after takeoff. But even doubling or tripling the runway needed at a high DA would still give huge margins.

Highest climb for my 100hp Sky Arrow has been 13,500’, just to see how she did there. She did fine, and solo I still had a bit more climb available.

7425331888_1477c4bf99_z.jpg


Raw HP is not the issue: Power to weight ratio is. And 100 hp Light Sports have similar takeoff and climb performance to a 310 hp Cirrus for that reason.
 
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As a data point, for takeoff distance my POH only goes up to 4,000’ PA and 104°, resulting in a DA of about 7,600’. There’s no limitation given as to maximum takeoff* altitude, so I don’t think it’s technically illegal to take off at a DA above that, but one does become a “test pilot” with no performance data to rely upon.

As an aside, my POH gives climb performance up to 12,000’ PA and the same 104°, resulting in a DA of over 17,000’. At that altitude it still shows a climb rate of 285 fpm! Someday I’ll have to grab some oxygen and check it out!


*Cirrus does list a maximum takeoff altitude of 10,000’ MSL as a Limitation. Not much of a factor in the US.
 
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FastEddieB said:
Raw HP is not the issue: Power to weight ratio is. And 100 hp Light Sports have similar takeoff and climb performance to a 310 hp Cirrus for that reason.
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Hadn't thought the ratio. Light Sports are lighter than the C-172 of my flight school :)
 
Stan Cooper said:
I suggest springing for a POH for whatever LSA(s) you're seriously interested in and looking at the performance charts for maximum climb rates and runway length requirements at various pressure altitudes and temperatures. Then compare the numbers with whatever non-LSA you fly that's comfortable for you in your high density altitude environment.
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Yes, good advice.

There are many small aircraft whose performance charts top out at 8000ft pressure altitude or less. Examples: Jabiru 230-C, P28R/200. There are some airports in NM, like KSRR near Ruidoso that routinely are above that even in the mornings. This can make it a challenge.
 
Datadriver said:
Yes, good advice.

There are many small aircraft whose performance charts top out at 8000ft pressure altitude or less. Examples: Jabiru 230-C, P28R/200. There are some airports in NM, like KSRR near Ruidoso that routinely are above that even in the mornings. This can make it a challenge.
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Pilots who fly in those areas regularly do what the manuals specifically caution against - conservative extrapolation, coupled with the old 70/50 guideline and a broad pool of prior experience.
 
Datadriver said:
There are many small aircraft whose performance charts top out at 8000ft pressure altitude or less...This can make it a challenge.
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This provides a conundrum.

The FAR for “Preflight Action” says:

...(b) For any flight, runway lengths at airports of intended use, and the following takeoff and landing distance information:

(1) For civil aircraft for which an approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual containing takeoff and landing distance data is required, the takeoff and landing distance data contained therein; and

(2) For civil aircraft other than those specified in paragraph (b)(1)of this section, other reliable information appropriate to the aircraft, relating to aircraft performance under expected values of airport elevation and runway slope, aircraft gross weight, and wind and temperature.


I think if one were to run into trouble, such as being unable to get airborne and running off the end of the runway - when operating at an airport at an elevation for which no “reliable information” is available - i.e. above the maximum altitude shown on performance charts, the FAA might be able to make a case one had violated that reg. No doubt it happens all the time to no ill effect, but worth keeping in mind.
 
FastEddieB said:
This provides a conundrum.

The FAR for “Preflight Action” says:

...(b) For any flight, runway lengths at airports of intended use, and the following takeoff and landing distance information:

(1) For civil aircraft for which an approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual containing takeoff and landing distance data is required, the takeoff and landing distance data contained therein; and

(2) For civil aircraft other than those specified in paragraph (b)(1)of this section, other reliable information appropriate to the aircraft, relating to aircraft performance under expected values of airport elevation and runway slope, aircraft gross weight, and wind and temperature.


I think if one were to run into trouble, such as being unable to get airborne and running off the end of the runway - when operating at an airport at an elevation for which no “reliable information” is available - i.e. above the maximum altitude shown on performance charts, the FAA might be able to make a case one had violated that reg. No doubt it happens all the time to no ill effect, but worth keeping in mind.
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That's of course true, especially since completely legal activities can be considered "careless and reckless."
 
PiperW said:
...with your wife being 300 lb considering keeping her wing empty....o_Oo_Oo_Oo_O
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Now, that is funny...... Just make sure you don't let your wife posted that weight for her!
 
Datadriver said:
Yes, good advice.

There are many small aircraft whose performance charts top out at 8000ft pressure altitude or less. Examples: Jabiru 230-C, P28R/200. There are some airports in NM, like KSRR near Ruidoso that routinely are above that even in the mornings. This can make it a challenge.
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If I followed the Cherokee charts, I’d fly maybe a few weeks a year, since they top out at 7000 ft and my ground is 5500 ft.
 
My ride doesn't have performance charts for altitude. And if it did, I wouldn't believe them. I guess I can't fly at all.
On the other hand, I can do a full stop and go in 1000 feet at sea level. So I figure if someone can get out in a Cessna / Piper at altitude, I can do it too. (And, yes, it qualifies as an LSA with it's mighty Rotax 912-UL).
 
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rene86mx said:
My mission: just me and my wife (around 300 pounds) Typical 2-hour legs or 300-400 NM x-countries
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Most LSAs actually have an occupant weight limit of 240 or 260 pounds, just to make sure she's not falling out of the bottom of the airplane. It's right there in POH. I weigh 230 lbs and right on the cusp.
 
It is total. Now we are expecting a child and I'm figuring how my mission will change.
 
rene86mx said:
It is total. Now we are expecting a child and I'm figuring how my mission will change.
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I think you're going to be flying solo a lot more! :p

My wife is not keen to fly, and that means my son isn't going to fly because he learned far sooner than I did that there are penalties (usually later in life) for crossing mom. I fly solo about 99% of the time. So my LSA works great for me.

For a while, I think you'll likely fly solo (if at all) as the baby is born and your "free time" is when the baby is napping.

Congrats on the upcoming brith of your baby! :)
 
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