Charlie Airspace Question (GA and AFB Next To Each Other)

[Sinistar]

While looking at @Peter Ha's route for the next day I noticed something I hadn't seen before.

I have flown into Omaha Epply (KOMA) which is near Offutt AFB (OFF) but the Charlie surface columns are clearly separate. This seems to make sense since one is a Air Force base and restricted.

I have flown into Rapid City (KRAP) which is near Ellsworth AFB (RCA). In this case the Deltas share a boundary but with both being partially cut out for the other - but there is a boundary to the surface.

Then there is Tucson where Davis Monthan AFB (DMA) Charlie surface column is actually shared with the Tucson Intl (TUS) Charlie surface column...or no clear boundary between them. I'm not instrument rated but I know from departing Omaha you need clearance/delivery to get out of there VFR. You'll get a squawk and flight following. But there doesn't seem to be any clearly marked boundary to prevent you from going over the AFB which would obviously be a no-no. Are there specialized rules in this airspace?

 

[RussR]

Overflying military bases is not a "no-no". There's nothing special or different about the Class D or C airspace around a military base compared to that around a civilian airport. You can fly over the base no problem.

It's public use airspace. If the military needs a "no-fly" area, well, that's what Restricted Areas are for.

 

[smv]

What better way to get a handle on airport ops than to listen to the freqs?

KTUS Del/Gnd/Twr/App/KDMA - Tucson, Arizona, United States
https://www.liveatc.net/hlisten.php?mount=ktus2&icao=ktus

Aside from that, flying over an Air Force Base, in and of itself, is not that big of a deal. Especially when ATC takes you there. Take a look at Honolulu International. Not only is the airspace the same, they use the same runways as Hickam AFB...

 

[luvflyin]

While looking at @Peter Ha's route for the next day I noticed something I hadn't seen before.

I have flown into Omaha Epply (KOMA) which is near Offutt AFB (OFF) but the Charlie surface columns are clearly separate. This seems to make sense since one is a Air Force base and restricted.

I have flown into Rapid City (KRAP) which is near Ellsworth AFB (RCA). In this case the Deltas share a boundary but with both being partially cut out for the other - but there is a boundary to the surface.

Then there is Tucson where Davis Monthan AFB (DMA) Charlie surface column is actually shared with the Tucson Intl (TUS) Charlie surface column...or no clear boundary between them. I'm not instrument rated but I know from departing Omaha you need clearance/delivery to get out of there VFR. You'll get a squawk and flight following. But there doesn't seem to be any clearly marked boundary to prevent you from going over the AFB which would obviously be a no-no. Are there specialized rules in this airspace?

KOFF>KOMA 11 miles
KDMA>KTUS 4 miles
KRAP>KRCA 6 miles

The standard core surface area radius of Class C’s is 5 miles.
Standard radius of Class D’s is 4.4 miles.

 

[Lindberg]

Overflying military bases is not a "no-no". There's nothing special or different about the Class D or C airspace around a military base compared to that around a civilian airport. You can fly over the base no problem.

It can be kind of cool too. Flew right over Altus AFB in a Cub and ATC called out traffic, which was a C5 at 7 miles. Asked if I had him in sight. Lol. Would have been impossible to miss him.

 

[Velocity173]

Sometimes when they’re real close and their runways are similar, there’s a chance of landing at the wrong airfield. At Abilene, they’ve had more than one aircraft land at Dyess AFB by accident over the years. Not a good thing with AF security and all.

 

[Sinistar]

Cool!

So next dumb question. As long as a military base isn't fully wrapped with a restricted area...can you request a landing there? Can you contact their tower and request a landing or touch and go?

 

[smv]

Cool!

So next dumb question. As long as a military base isn't fully wrapped with a restricted area...can you request a landing there? Can you contact their tower and request a landing or touch and go?

You can request, but don't expect it to really happen. During my initial training I got to do a touch and go at Anderson AFB on Guam. It was a rare event and likely only happened because my CFI was in good with them. Later on, while flying CAP aircraft, I got to land at MCAS Kaneohe and was a Squadron Commander with two C182s stationed on Wheeler AAF so we were always flying in and out of there. Granted, CAP isn't really GA but only a few of the pilots were actually military so it was a unique experience.

 

[Velocity173]

Cool!

So next dumb question. As long as a military base isn't fully wrapped with a restricted area...can you request a landing there? Can you contact their tower and request a landing or touch and go?

Depends on the service and their policies. Generally, you’re allowed to do approaches but with a low approach only. Landing requires a civilian aircraft landing permit (CALP). In the Marines, we didn’t even allow approaches unless they had a CALP.

 

[denverpilot]

Cool!

So next dumb question. As long as a military base isn't fully wrapped with a restricted area...can you request a landing there? Can you contact their tower and request a landing or touch and go?

Same thought. You can ask but they have their own rules to follow.

There can also be traps for the unwary like stowed arresting cables that aren’t too big a deal for something big, but can ruin your day in a Cessna... BKF has those.

CAP on and off has kept some aircraft at BKF here over the years and had a whole separate briefing on the obstacles, stuff to stay away from on the ramp, prior permission when world tensions were high... yadda yadda yadda.

And then there’s the true mixed use airports where one half is civilian and the other is military... pay attention to signage and don’t go anywhere they don’t clear you to go...

In the air, they just act like airports. Most will tell you to “check gear down” when cleared to land if they’re a training facility, which is a chuckle in a fixed gear aircraft.

 

[Sinistar]

Depends on the service and their policies. Generally, you’re allowed to do approaches but with a low approach only. Landing requires a civilian aircraft landing permit (CALP). In the Marines, we didn’t even allow approaches unless they had a CALP.


View attachment 81889

So we just go to Signature or Millionaire and get a CALP - kidding! How much hassle would it be to get a CALP?

 

[Sinistar]

There can also be traps for the unwary like stowed arresting cables that aren’t too big a deal for something big, but can ruin your day in a Cessna... BKF has those.
......
In the air, they just act like airports. Most will tell you to “check gear down” when cleared to land if they’re a training facility, which is a chuckle in a fixed gear aircraft.

So if I could get a CALP I could land and be 'trapped' like an aircraft carrier LOL!

Hey at least the tower guy is calling out a gear down reminder. It could be private out at the end of the runway with binoc's and handheld

 

[WannFly]

Cool!

So next dumb question. As long as a military base isn't fully wrapped with a restricted area...can you request a landing there? Can you contact their tower and request a landing or touch and go?

Once you declare , sure

 

[denverpilot]

So we just go to Signature or Millionaire and get a CALP - kidding! How much hassle would it be to get a CALP?

You usually need to prove a “need” to be there. Like CAP storing airplanes at BKF.

They had a written authorization from the base commander to be there as long as specific notification rules were followed.

 

[Sinistar]

Once you declare , sure

So if just declare I have the CLAP...wait I meant CALP. But they will understand either

 

[Timbeck2]

Late to the party but your question has been answered. It isn't a big deal to fly over a military base but don't expect to do any touch and go's. Insurance purposes and lack of ID of the occupants of the aircraft prevent that. If you want and traffic permitting, you can even use the navaids and shoot an approach or two, just don't touch the runway. Specifically at DM you can fly over the boneyard but that just it, one direction and keep going because loitering isn't allowed and that is a federal notam issued just after 9-11 which includes power plants, dams, etc.

 

[RussR]

Standard radius of Class D’s is 4.4 miles.

Off topic, but that's not true. There is no standard radius for Class D, it is all tailored for local conditions. A look through the 7400.11D shows lots of varying radii. I think when the change to Class A, B, C, D, E, G airspace took place, the idea of 4.4 nm carried on in training materials and such because of the old Airport Traffic Area that was a 5 sm (or 4.34 nm, so 4.4 if you rounded up) radius around controlled airports - but even that wasn't the old Control Zone. It was a similar rule to the one in today's 91.126 and 127 that requires communication with a control tower within 4 nm and 2500 ft even if it's not charted as Class D.

 

[tspear]

So we just go to Signature or Millionaire and get a CALP - kidding! How much hassle would it be to get a CALP?

Took more time chasing the process/form than actually getting it done. I completed a CALP for two bases and did get authorization for one but never had a chance to use it for work.
The largest hurdle is a "need" that convinces the base commander. The one I wanted to get the CALP for the most, had a civilian airport just a couple miles away. The base commander instead of granting CALP said the KO would cover my taxi costs.

Tim

 

[murphey]

Peterson and KCOS co-exist.
I’ve landed the cherokee at Edwards AFB but not on the runway - the ‘small’ lakebed strip, as opposed to the long one where the shuttle landed. Advanced paperwork (CALP), even in 2010, was interesting.

 

[luvflyin]

Off topic, but that's not true. There is no standard radius for Class D, it is all tailored for local conditions. A look through the 7400.11D shows lots of varying radii. I think when the change to Class A, B, C, D, E, G airspace took place, the idea of 4.4 nm carried on in training materials and such because of the old Airport Traffic Area that was a 5 sm (or 4.34 nm, so 4.4 if you rounded up) radius around controlled airports - but even that wasn't the old Control Zone. It was a similar rule to the one in today's 91.126 and 127 that requires communication with a control tower within 4 nm and 2500 ft even if it's not charted as Class D.

I wouldn't call that off topic. The OP had KRAP and KRCA and their D's along with KOMA, KOFF, KDMA and KTUS with their C's. He didn't seem to be wondering about the old Control Zone aspect of D's taking Controlled Airspace to the surface, requiring 1000/500/3 cloud clearance and visibility, day and night. It was about the Communication Requirement of the old Airport Traffic Area aspect of D's. Which Tower he needed to be talking to. I just did a google search to come up with 4.4 being a basic starting point standard radius. They do vary a lot to accomodate local conditions. Check out KBFI.

 

[N1120A]

Sometimes when they’re real close and their runways are similar, there’s a chance of landing at the wrong airfield. At Abilene, they’ve had more than one aircraft land at Dyess AFB by accident over the years. Not a good thing with AF security and all.

The one near RAP has had at least a couple commercial planes screw up and land there.

Cool!

So next dumb question. As long as a military base isn't fully wrapped with a restricted area...can you request a landing there? Can you contact their tower and request a landing or touch and go?

There's a rumor North Island will let you do a touch and go, or at least a low pass, if they are in a good mood.

 

[Todd82]

Overflying military bases is not a "no-no". There's nothing special or different about the Class D or C airspace around a military base compared to that around a civilian airport. You can fly over the base no problem.

It's public use airspace. If the military needs a "no-fly" area, well, that's what Restricted Areas are for.

This. You're often routed right over or right off the end of the runway at Wright-Patt on your way into/out of DAY to/from the east.

From the southwest they kind of look similar if you're not paying enough attention. My first ever flight from a local field into DAY I was given a long straight in to 6R from a good 9 miles SW and started lining up to FFO instead of DAY. A very nice approach controller said "Verify straight in 6R at Dayton" and I figured out what I was screwing up. No phone number or military police needed.