owner-assisted maintence?

Peter Ha

Peter Ha

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Nov 18, 2019
Messages
223
Display Name
Display name:
Leadpan
Hey folks,
Short of becoming an AP; i want to learn as much about my plane as possible.
I heard some APs will allow owner-assisted maintenance? How do I find one?
How far will they let me work on the plane?
 
I would think the FBO's that have shops would normally like to stay away from that. Insurance reasons are one. Now independent A&P/IA will normally let you help open everything up, do oil changes, pack wheel bearings, clean spark plugs and such. If you have a hangar that is even better because it does not tie up there hangar if they have one.

Ask around the field

Another thing is buy a parts manual and service/shop manual
 
AKBill said:
I would think the FBO's that have shops would normally like to stay away from that. Insurance reasons are one. Now independent A&P/IA will normally let you help open everything up, do oil changes, pack wheel bearings, clean spark plugs and such. If you have a hangar that is even better because it does not tie up there hangar if they have one.

Ask around the field

Another thing is buy a parts manual and service/shop manual
Click to expand...

The plane came with Service Manual. :)
 
Join local EAA chapter and go to meetings. You’ll naturally make friends and eventually find an A&P through connections that’ll work on your plane that you can talk to about this. It’s not a short process as it’ll take time for the A&P to learn about you and trust that you know what you’re doing. Took me about a year.

I started by asking him to change my battery, then show me how to do my first oil change (I built drag cars as a hobby for 25 years but didn’t know jack about airplanes...still don’t, lol). Later we (he) rebuilt my nose strut, and we tried a prop balance. I’ve also taken it to a shop when I couldn’t wait. And found a great avionics guy/shop who got me a great deal on a great stack, and allowed me to do as much as I was comfortable with.

They call it networking, but I just call it making new friends. I wish I had more time to spend with ‘em.
 
Last edited:
where are you?
 
Buy an E-AB aircraft and do all the maintenance. (You will need an A&P for the condition inspection each year if you didn't build it.)
 
Remember that there is a list of "preventative maintenance" items you can legally do yourself, including changing the oil, spark plugs, touch up painting, etc. Beyond that, it's a matter of how comfortable the A&P is with your skills.

Many years ago when I was a young pilot with his first airplane, I had engine trouble away from home requiring pulling a cylinder. The shop at the field where I was stuck had a policy that aircraft owners could do the work themselves under supervision in their shop, using their tools, at half their standard shop rate, and the A&P would inspect and sign it off when done. I did the cylinder swap myself with their help and advice. I realized later that it almost certainly cost me more, since I probably took more than twice as long as an experienced A&P (any job takes twice as long the first time you do it), but it was still worth it for what I learned in the process.
 
Or better yet, build an E-AB, you'll learn all sorts of things about the plane.
 
Are there any airplane museums in your area? The coowner of my plane and I volunteer wrenching on warplanes on the weekends and have for years. The A&P/IA at the museum is very helpful and supervises most of the work on our airplane.
 
Peter Ha said:
I heard some APs will allow owner-assisted maintenance?
Click to expand...
It depends on the mechanic. I provided owner-assisted mx for a number of years. Unfortunately, the number of AP/IAs who do work with pilot/owners seems to be dwindling based on the calls and discussions I've had. But it is still possible to find an AP/IA who will. Also, having your own space to work on your aircraft vs using the mechanic's shop is a huge plus. And educating yourself on aircraft maintenance helps too. I had any new customer review the following for a good mx foundation:
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/faa-h-8083-19A.pdf
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_43-9C_CHG_2.pdf
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_43-12A_CHG_1.pdf
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...e181fab328efa&mc=true&node=pt14.1.43&rgn=div5
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...f&mc=true&node=pt14.2.91&rgn=div5#sp14.2.91.e
Peter Ha said:
How do I find one?
Click to expand...
Visit your local airports and inquire, however, most "bigger" shops usually don't offer owner-assisted due to work flow. Visit your local FSDO and inquire, plus ask if they sponsor any IA Renewal Seminars. If so make plans to attend. Look up local IAs on the online FAA IA Directory. Remember, you may have to look outside your immediate area to find an AP/IA willing to work with you. I had several customers who were 3-4 hours away at times.
Peter Ha said:
How far will they let me work on the plane?
Click to expand...
Outside the Preventative Maintenance items you can perform under your pilot's certificate, usually it depends on your skill set and the mechanics schedule. I had some clients that were more mechanically inclined than me and would perform heavy mx like cylinder replacements under my supervision. While other's would struggle through the preventative mx list. So the answer would be very subjective to what your mechanic sees in you. Good luck.
 
Many independent mechanics are willing to supervise your work, depending on your skill level. For some tasks, it will cost far more in time and possibly money for you to do the work than than to just let the mechanic do it. The most complicated task I have done is replace the acrylic canopy of an AA-1A. Incredibly fussy, required special drill bits and technique, and a lot of hand-trimming. Including a minor repair, it took longer than it should have, but turned out well. $250 for a raw canopy and a few bucks for the approved sealant, plus sweat equity was quite a deal.

Routine stuff, like removing inspections panels, seats, spark plugs, oil change, changing and inspecting the oil filter, safety wiring, etc. are a good place to start for owner assisted maintenance. It takes more time than you think. Replacing interiors, including plastic trim, is owner-doable work and a good learning experience, but it also very fussy--I will never do that again myself.
 
AKBill said:
..
Another thing is buy a parts manual and service/shop manual
Click to expand...

I'd recommend that, too. If you've never dealt with parts and service manuals before, they can be a little overwhelming to navigate, but I've learned a TON about my plane over the years by having them, and am fortunate to have two different A&P/IA guys who share their knowledge with me allow me to assist. Both are actually reluctant to do and charge me for "grunt" work.. they do the stuff or coach me through the stuff that requires expertise, then turn me loose on the mind-numbing, finger-busting parts of the job. They both appreciate the fact that I come to them AFTER having extensively consulting the parts and service manuals and done as much as I can to figure out any issues.

Don't cross the line, however. Owner-allowed maintenance... yes, do it. Stuff that requires an A&P ... you must work with an A&P. Some will allow you to assist a bit, some will allow you to assist more, some will let you pretty much do the entire job and then inspect and sign off on it if you have earned their confidence in your abilities over time.

As others have already said, finding independent A&P/IA folks is the way to go. Large shops, for a myriad of reasons, are typically less willing to have owners assist. The ideal A&P for you will be an owner who became one initially because he wanted to maintain his own plane and maybe help out the flying community in the area. Some are part timer A&P/IAs and professional pilots.. others are might be full-time A&P/IAs but running a small shop at a small local FBO. Ask around.. ask some CFIs, especially a CFI who owns and instructs in his own plane. Those guys typically develop a relationship w/ an A&P due to the frequency of inspections required on aircraft used in training.
 
chemgeek said:
Routine stuff, like removing inspections panels, seats, spark plugs, oil change, changing and inspecting the oil filter, safety wiring, etc. are a good place to start for owner assisted maintenance. It takes more time than you think. Replacing interiors, including plastic trim, is owner-doable work and a good learning experience, but it also very fussy--I will never do that again myself.
Click to expand...
Read, 43.A
(c) Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the following work, provided it does not involve complex assembly operations:

no need owner assisting required. these operations are consider Preventive maintenance.
 
Tom-D said:
Read, 43.A
(c) Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the following work, provided it does not involve complex assembly operations:

no need owner assisting required. these operations are consider Preventive maintenance.
Click to expand...

Fortunately, the FAA itself has stated that preventative maintenance is NOT limited to the items listed FAR 43, Appendix A. Instead the general definition should govern. To wit: Preventive maintenance means simple or minor preservation operations and the replacement of small standard parts not involving complex assembly operations.
 

Attachments

  • Opinion Regarding Scope of Preventative Maintenance.pdf
    54.5 KB · Views: 19
schmookeeg said:
I am taking my plane to KRAL for its annual at the end of this month. I am an A&P and would be happy to show you around your bird.

I plan to owner assist for a week or two on my own, so will be around a bunch. PM if you wanna get together.
Click to expand...
That is very nice of you.:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
Bell206 said:
Also, having your own space to work on your aircraft vs using the mechanic's shop is a huge plus.
Click to expand...

The only thing to add is it will improve your odds if your hangar is climate controlled. For some reason, my A&P didn’t want to do an owner assisted annual in my hangar in January, lol. Weaklings.:D
 
Kristin said:
Fortunately, the FAA itself has stated that preventative maintenance is NOT limited to the items listed FAR 43, Appendix A. Instead the general definition should govern. To wit: Preventive maintenance means simple or minor preservation operations and the replacement of small standard parts not involving complex assembly operations.
Click to expand...
I will admit that I don't find any part of, say, a 172F to be "complex", and I've likely crossed the line in the eyes of some. But our shop always knew what I did, and they took at look at each annual. (Of course, I had more than a decade as a line mechanic on motorcycles, cars, and boats, and rebuilt many a VW engine, before ever owning a plane.) I was proudest of my 'owner produced' yoke shaft bushing, far superior to Cessna's.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
I will admit that I don't find any part of, say, a 172F to be "complex", and I've likely crossed the line in the eyes of some. But our shop always knew what I did, and they took at look at each annual. (Of course, I had more than a decade as a line mechanic on motorcycles, cars, and boats, and rebuilt many a VW engine, before ever owning a plane.) I was proudest of my 'owner produced' yoke shaft bushing, far superior to Cessna's.
Click to expand...

There is obviously some gray area in what might be considered "complex". To my knowledge, it has never been carefully defined. My gut feeling is that any part that you have to remove and disassemble on the bench the FAA might consider complex.

It was nice to have the lawyers actually use some common sense as if you read the limitation in Appendix A and then go through the list, it is a bit tortured to decide that you can even change your own oil as it is not specifically listed. Read literally, you can remove the tire which requires disassembling the Cleveland brakes, but you can't change the pads, even though they are in your hand.

In the end, a friendly A&P is the best solution to it all.
 
AKBill said:
I would think the FBO's that have shops would normally like to stay away from that. Insurance reasons are one. Now independent A&P/IA will normally let you help open everything up, do oil changes, pack wheel bearings, clean spark plugs and such. If you have a hangar that is even better because it does not tie up there hangar if they have one.
Click to expand...

Their insurance company apparently won’t let me go hang out in the FBO’s maintenance hangar and work on my (Experimental) plane, assisted or not, but the AP/IA’s and avionics guys there will come over to my hangar after hours or on weekends and help me out, or I help them, to whatever extent I ask them and they do that work on their personal rate, which is a LOT cheaper. It’s a great convenience and saves a lot of money.
 
Peter Ha said:
Riveride, CA
Click to expand...

RAL? I have roots there. I may be able to put you in touch with the mechanic that’s been working with my family for years. My cousin has an aircraft upholstery shop at RAL.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
IIRC, Peter Ha is based at Corona (AJO), not Riverside (RAL)
 
Peter Ha said:
Hey folks,
Short of becoming an AP; i want to learn as much about my plane as possible.
I heard some APs will allow owner-assisted maintenance? How do I find one?
How far will they let me work on the plane?
Click to expand...

Ask around, there will be ones that will do it. You’ll likely find that the price of the maintenance will be more because of the extra time the A&P will take with you. Think of it as tuition. After awhile when you’ve learned enough, getting an annual you can save money. Get all the inspection covers off and other things done to prepare. Then get out of his way while he ‘annuals’ then you put it back together.
 
I've done enough work on my airplane to learn that I don't want to work on my airplane. Mine is notorious for being hard to work on, not without reason.
 
MacFly said:
Their insurance company apparently won’t let me go hang out in the FBO’s maintenance hangar and work on my (Experimental) plane, assisted or not, but the AP/IA’s and avionics guys there will come over to my hangar after hours or on weekends and help me out, or I help them, to whatever extent I ask them and they do that work on their personal rate, which is a LOT cheaper. It’s a great convenience and saves a lot of money.
Click to expand...

Likely just a convenient scapegoat for the FBO. I'd be shocked if the insurance policy actually prohibited it.
 
bradg33 said:
Likely just a convenient scapegoat for the FBO. I'd be shocked if the insurance policy actually prohibited it.
Click to expand...

I have heard that insurance story a number of times so I found the FBO mx director and asked him what the deal is. I don’t use the shop on the field anyway but wanted to know what the deal is. He said it’s more about liability part that insurance won’t cover. You roam around in the shop, bang your head in the high wing or slip and fall and break your hip, put your finger where it doesn’t belong and it gets chopped off.... and you sue them for whatever.... that’s what the insurance company wants to avoid. Or so what I have been told
 
Ask around. When I first became an owner, my mechanic taught me how to properly do a lot of allowed owner maintenance (spark plugs, oil and filter changes, etc.) and also supervised me for other, relatively simpler tasks (changing brake pads, installing a new canopy and windshield on an AA-1A.) What I discovered is it took three times as long for me to do stuff than have the mechanic do it, although I did learn quite a bit about my plane in the process.
 
WannFly said:
that’s what the insurance company wants to avoid. Or so what I have been told
Click to expand...
FYI: On the mx policies I had with premises liability I had to provide a diagram of the work area and general public area. If there was an overlap of the 2 areas or I allowed the public into the work area that portion had a higher rate.
 
bradg33 said:
Likely just a convenient scapegoat for the FBO. I'd be shocked if the insurance policy actually prohibited it.
Click to expand...
Maybe. Probably. But I don't really care. I'd rather do it in my own hangar anyway, after hours and on weekends. Works for me, works for him.

My airplane is an RV. I'm not required to use an A&P for any maintenance except annual condition inspection, but I didn't build it and I know very little about airplane maintenance. It's very prudent to have him show me how to do simple maintenance stuff, so he kind of looks over my shoulder for the time being for anything that I do or at least look it over carefully after I'm done. And with the exception the basics like oil/filter/plugs...anything in front of the firewall is all him.
 
Last edited:
WannFly said:
I have heard that insurance story a number of times so I found the FBO mx director and asked him what the deal is. I don’t use the shop on the field anyway but wanted to know what the deal is. He said it’s more about liability part that insurance won’t cover. You roam around in the shop, bang your head in the high wing or slip and fall and break your hip, put your finger where it doesn’t belong and it gets chopped off.... and you sue them for whatever.... that’s what the insurance company wants to avoid. Or so what I have been told
Click to expand...
Correct. I’m an adjuster and this does happen. Had a contractor sue an FBO for slipping on oil while walking through the hangar, as well as customer who tripped over something and fell onto his face. Many shops don’t want that hassle because some have deductibles on their policy. So not only does their insurance get hit, they’re out of pocket themselves.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top