Withholding aircraft after maintenance

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John Myers

Pre-takeoff checklist
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John Myers
Hopefully there are some lawyers onboard who can comment. Is it legal for a shop to withhold an airplane after work is done unless payment is received for the work? The invoice itself would presumably be disputed in this case.

I would have thought that the plane could be picked up while the dispute is resolved in the courts. I think this would come down to law enforcement either being willing to go to the shop with a pilot to pick it up or not.

My thinking is unless the person is permitted to have their property back while the dispute works its way through the courts, they are continually being damaged, but maybe it is the case they would just need to suffer through it and ask for damages in court.

I happen to live in Colorado but curious how this would play out in general. Given how late shops are I'm guessing I am not the only one curious about this one...
 
Just a WAG, but if the shop already knows you are dragging their azz through the overloaded court system why wouldn't they hold the plane? It's pretty well their only leverage to encourage a negotiated solution, isn't it?

I've been in (non-aviation) businesses for a long time. One of my most valuable early learnings as a young pup is that in a commercial dispute a negotiated solution is always better than going to court.
 
Explaining BEFORE work is the key, as in:

1. You have permission for the annual inspection ONLY and no repairs unless approved by myself.
2. If you run into ANYTHING, you're expected to call for permission prior to repair.
 
If the shop is adamant, you'll have to pursue a replevin action (can be done in small claims most places), of course you can expect to be countersued for what they think you owe.
 
The shop's work order dictates what the shop or owner can do or can't do .

when the owner signs the order. they are bound with that statement.

In Washington the owner must return all property to the owner.
 
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The bitchin starts when the discrepancies are in contention.
 
John Myers said:
Is it legal for a shop to withhold an airplane after work is done unless payment is received for the work? ..
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Usually the mechanic/shop has legal right to keep aircraft till bill paid in full. It depends on local/state law and falls under a mechanics lien provision or something similar. You can try to compromise with them and pay the undisputed portion but in my experience you normally would have to pay full bill, get plane back, then contest the issues. All my invoices/work requests stated I retained articles/products until payment received which followed the laws where I performed mx. Are you disputing entire bill or portion(s)?
 
To be clear, I am not in this situation but it seemed possible I would be and I was curious. Avionics shop estimated 2 months and we're working on 6. I think we'll be able to work things out though.

"Replevin" was the keyword I was looking for, thanks flyingron. It looks like in Colorado within two weeks you can get a hearing and the court will decide if you get your property back or not within 7 days of that hearing. If you lose it seems like you can at least require that they pickle it and get them to pay damages if they don't. If decided in your favor: " The order of possession shall be directed to the sheriff within whose jurisdiction the property is located." and " If it is not voluntarily delivered, he shall cause the building or enclosure to be broken open...and take the property into his possession." So you get the local gunslinger to help you get your plane back.

https://casetext.com/rule/colorado-...izure-of-person-or-property/rule-104-replevin
 
There is an FAA mechanics lien form that they can file in Oklahoma City that will show up on a title search as a lien.
 
Sorry, if they performed the work you requested you owe them. They can easily get a mechanics lean and retain the machine.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Sorry, if they performed the work you requested you owe them. They can easily get a mechanics lean and retain the machine.
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First off the word is "lien" not "lean." A mechanics lien does not allow you to withhold property that doesn't belong to you. This is called conversion and it is a felony. A lien encumbers the property but doesn't give you the rights to possess/repossess it without going through a further perfecting process. The problem is that unlike your car or even a house, the title to an aircraft is federal. You'll have to go through a lot of hoops (first with your state most likely then Joklahoma City) to get anywhere with it.
 
Yeah, you’d have a fight with me if you tried to hold my $60,000 property over a $1,000 dispute. Not going to stand still for that. Now if you installed a $40,000 engine and I hadn’t paid, that’s a different story.
 
Salty said:
Yeah, you’d have a fight with me if you tried to hold my $60,000 property over a $1,000 dispute. Not going to stand still for that. Now if you installed a $40,000 engine and I hadn’t paid, that’s a different story.
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What is the minimum unpaid invoice amount where a mechanic holding your property would draw fists?
 
Laws aside, I think it's a crap shop that would hold a plane hostage for payment, unless the owner was clearly acting in bad faith, and even then, I think easier to just lien the plane to prompt conversation and compromise.

In a few years of shop ownership, we only had one scalawag skip out on about 8 grand in work due to a 'dispute' which he never articulated. Sadly we took more than 30 days to educate ourselves about mechanic liens, so missed our opportunity.

Hopefully I'll meet the miscreant at b2osh or something and we can discuss it like cool rational adults. Or I can steal his ruddervators under cover of darkness. :D
 
Had this happen ones

Mostly a issue with shady shops.

Also a reason to do owner assist and buy your own stuff.
 
flyingron said:
A mechanics lien does not allow you to withhold property that doesn't belong to you.... the title to an aircraft is federal.
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Not quite. You may want to check your local/state laws. Fortunately, I've only had to retain several aircraft due to non-payment. Unfortunately, I've assisted a number of owners who did get caught up in this issue. And FWIW, there is no actual "title" on an aircraft, federal or state. ;)
 
Bell206 said:
Not quite. You may want to check your local/state laws. Fortunately, I've only had to retain several aircraft due to non-payment. Unfortunately, I've assisted a number of owners who did get caught up in this issue. And FWIW, there is no actual "title" on an aircraft, federal or state. ;)
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Umm, yes, there is. There isn't a physical document called a title, but title as a legal concept exists and the FAA even uses the term.
 
flyingron said:
Umm, yes, there is. There isn't a physical document called a title, but title as a legal concept exists and the FAA even uses the term.
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Got a reference? Titles are legal documents not concepts. The FAA is only a depository of records. They don't issue titles. There is guidance on this. The FAA have regulations that require proof of ownership as it applies to operational control of the aircraft. But short of that no physical "title" document as you stated. ;)
 
What ever happened to the phrase "Possession is 9/10ths of the law"?
 
Pay the bill. Get a lien sign off. Then figure it out.

Will all depend on the work authorization. If the mechanic clearly did work that wasn't authorized, then your lawsuit against him is going to cost him a lot more than he made off the work. But get your plane clear of it all first.
 
Is the dispute only over money? The OP indicated the work was to be done in 2 months and is going on 6 months now (post 8). So it's not complete. I don't know, maybe a little more to the story.
 
If only we could pay the shop in the same amount of time it took them to do the job.
Wouldn't you agree that the mechanics would pick up the pace and not drag their feet?
 
No Pay, no Play. The shop is smart enough to know they will never see their money if the plane is released, even if they sue the owner.
 
A hangar neighbor is an IA. He played games returning either the airplane or the logs to the owner following a dispute.

I was there when 2 guys with FAA nametags on lanyards around their necks arrived in a somewhat pitiful minivan to explain that the FAA truly frowns on that type of behavior. They encouraged him to deal with it in civil court.
 
Bell206 said:
Got a reference? Titles are legal documents not concepts. The FAA is only a depository of records. They don't issue titles. There is guidance on this. The FAA have regulations that require proof of ownership as it applies to operational control of the aircraft. But short of that no physical "title" document as you stated. ;)
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Yes, in fact, the FAA specifically states that the registration is not proof of ownership.
 
Bell206 said:
Got a reference? Titles are legal documents not concepts. The FAA is only a depository of records. They don't issue titles. There is guidance on this. The FAA have regulations that require proof of ownership as it applies to operational control of the aircraft. But short of that no physical "title" document as you stated. ;)
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You need to go back and read what I wrote. I didn't say the FAA "issues titles." Title is a legal term meaning "established or recognized right to ownership." It doesn't necessarily mean, as with cars, a single printed document. For instance, title to real estate is not a single deed. Those are actually the conveyances (like the bill of sale in the FAA case). The title is the entire chain of those conveyances. The title of aircraft is properly what the FAA holds in their records and the FAA uses that term properly in that sense, as did I.
 
BigBadLou said:
If only we could pay the shop in the same amount of time it took them to do the job.
Wouldn't you agree that the mechanics would pick up the pace and not drag their feet?
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It does a shop no good to dawdle on a job, ever.
 
If I recall, you are entitled to pick up your property, but the shop can take you to court if you owe them money. The court decides the rest.
 
Doug Reid said:
If I recall, you are entitled to pick up your property, but the shop can take you to court if you owe them money. The court decides the rest.
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If you've signed an agreement that states that you will pay in full before the shop released the aircraft, you may have to get a court to get your plane released.
But if some shop was taking months to get something done, unless they had a good reason, I'd want to take it elsewhere.
 
John Myers said:
I happen to live in Colorado but curious how this would play out in general. Given how late shops are I'm guessing I am not the only one curious about this one...
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Personal property lien laws, especially the procedure involved, vary a lot from state to state. There is no universal.

You will want to consult with a Colorado lawyer to confirm this because, like most lien laws, the devil is in the details. Best I can do is generalities.

Generally speaking, Colorado law gives a lien to people who do repairs to any personal property. The basic statute is C.R.S. §38-20-106. The lienholder has the right to hold the property to enforce the lien. The costs of enforcing the lien are added to the lien. The lienholder can't sit there forever. He has to take steps to foreclose the lien within 90 days or the right terminates.
 
Doug Reid said:
If I recall, you are entitled to pick up your property, but the shop can take you to court if you owe them money. The court decides the rest.
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Of course, a mechanic can always choose to let the property go and chase the owner around trying to collect, but North Carolina also has a possessory lien law.
 
flyingron said:
You need to go back and read what I wrote. I
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I did read what you wrote, which was...
flyingron said:
The problem is that unlike your car or even a house, the title to an aircraft is federal.
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And
flyingron said:
Title is a legal term meaning "established or recognized right to ownership."
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You equated a car/house title to an aircraft title except it was federal. I simply replied, in so many words, there is no such equal document for an aircraft that legally proves ownership. The FAA records whatever info you send them and makes zero determinations if you are in fact the "legal" owner. The feds have stated an aircraft registration record is not proof of aircraft ownership. This was the reason they had to purge the aircraft reg database 3x and put registrations on a renew schedule as the "titles" , "conveyance" , whatever you wish to call it in the record/database, did not reflect the actual owner of the aircraft.
 
flyingron said:
First off the word is "lien" not "lean." A mechanics lien does not allow you to withhold property that doesn't belong to you. This is called conversion and it is a felony. A lien encumbers the property but doesn't give you the rights to possess/repossess it without going through a further perfecting process. The problem is that unlike your car or even a house, the title to an aircraft is federal. You'll have to go through a lot of hoops (first with your state most likely then Joklahoma City) to get anywhere with it.
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That's the kind of lay misunderstanding lawyers see all the time. Lien law is unfortunately complicated. Its an attempt to balance mechanic rights with owner rights, with most states ending up leaning (pun intended) one way or the other.

"Title" can be used as a generic term for "ownership" or as name name of a document. In the case of the FAA Registry, it's the first meaning since there is no federal certificate of title; just a registration. "Ownership," "security interest," "lien rights" are all determined by state, not federal law.

In the case of liens and security interests, state law creates the interest; the Registry permits it to be recorded and is the exclusive means of documentary perfection. "Perfection" means notice to the world that the interest is being claimed. It does not mean the claim is valid.

In most states which have a mechanics lien, the lienholder is allowed to hold the property until payment or until the lien is foreclosed. In most of those, there are procedural protections for the owner. Those include the lienholder having to take legal action within a certain time period or lose the lien and the ability of the owner to take steps to recover the property. A good example of the latter is the North Carolina procedure which allows the owner to pay the amount of the lien into court and regain possession pending a determination of how much is actually owed.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Apparently there is much more to the story than what has been written here.
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bflynn said:
Pay the bill. Get a lien sign off. Then figure it out.
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I'd rather not have my plane in possession of some angry or bitter with me. Plus everyone else who comes in for service will get a story negatively impacting your reputation.
 
I live in the podunk world.... never paid the shop when I pick up my plane, the check always goes later sometime
 
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