Keeping databases current question

AggieMike88

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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
I recently went on a flight with a fiend and his newly purchased airplane. It is a very nice flyer and well appointed with lots of glass: GTN750, the new Garmin ratio replacement for the KX155, and two GX3 10” touch screens, one for the pilot side, a second for the passenger side.

During power up of the avionics, I noted the his screen showed the nav database in the current cycle, but the 750 and the G3x in front of me was out of date. The G3x in front of him was current.

Can someone provide guidance and a rule or AC citation that either permits this “one is current but others are not is satisfactory” or says “all must be current”.

Currently he is only a VFR private pilot, but He said he wishes to obtain his IFR ticket by late summer. I would like to make sure he understands what he should be doing database wise to be “legal” once he begins training and eventually obtains the rating.

My initial guess is that he needs to have current databases in the GTN and his primary PFD.

But that’s a guess and I’d like to expand my knowledge with what the proper rules answer is.
 
From memory: If the gps is not current, can be used ifr enroute if the waypoints are verified but not for gps approaches. Can certainly be on for situational awareness.
 
I recently went on a flight with a fiend and his newly purchased airplane. It is a very nice flyer and well appointed with lots of glass: GTN750, the new Garmin ratio replacement for the KX155, and two GX3 10” touch screens, one for the pilot side, a second for the passenger side.

During power up of the avionics, I noted the his screen showed the nav database in the current cycle, but the 750 and the G3x in front of me was out of date. The G3x in front of him was current.

Can someone provide guidance and a rule or AC citation that either permits this “one is current but others are not is satisfactory” or says “all must be current”.

Currently he is only a VFR private pilot, but He said he wishes to obtain his IFR ticket by late summer. I would like to make sure he understands what he should be doing database wise to be “legal” once he begins training and eventually obtains the rating.

My initial guess is that he needs to have current databases in the GTN and his primary PFD.

But that’s a guess and I’d like to expand my knowledge with what the proper rules answer is.
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/faq/

Search down to the topic "What is the database currency requirement needed for VFR or IFR flight?"

Everything you want to know about GPS databases.

Side note....gadzooks...his avionics are more than my entire airplane is worth.
 
While one can parse and rationlize the meaning of the regs, for all practical purposes anything you use for IFR needs to have a current nav database installed. And why would you not do that if flying in the clag? A database subscription is so much less painful than cumulogranitus.
 
You’d think he’d just get the Pilot Pak or whatever where Garmin covers all the devices in the aircraft for one price, and keep them all up to date.

Bought tens of thousands in avionics, saved $150 a year on updates?
 
Probably just neglected to insert the SD card into the second unit or the download failed. Easy to imagine. Or maybe when they’re connected it’s supposed to transfer the update from one GDU to the other? Meh. Stuff happens. All the required info should reside in the updated GDU.
 
@chemgeek @denverpilot @Stewartb

At the moment, he is a decent stick newish private pilot who has just entered the realm of ownership that includes keeping up with the nav databases. His past experience was being a member of a club where someone else kept up with nav currency.

I wish to make sure to provide him accurate info on what he need to be doing once he gets deeper into IFR territory.

“Teach them right the first time” as the FOI’s say
 
He just needs to learn how to use the flygarmin site and transfer data using SD cards. My G3X requires the same. It isn’t difficult but it isn’t intuitive, either.
 
He just needs to learn how to use the flygarmin site and transfer data using SD cards. My G3X requires the same. It isn’t difficult but it isn’t intuitive, either.
Oh I’m sure he can quickly learn the how. I wanted to properly inform him of the why.
 
He just needs to learn how to use the flygarmin site and transfer data using SD cards. My G3X requires the same. It isn’t difficult but it isn’t intuitive, either.
If memory serves, the FS510/GTN can push database updates to G500/G600 displays. Does this not apply to the G3x?
 
Don’t know. My system only has one GDU. In any event any data he needed to be “legal” resided on one unit. He could have just used the other for the EIS. Options.
 
Can someone provide guidance...
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/faq/#q8c
What is the database currency requirement needed for VFR or IFR flight?
AIM 1-1-19b3(b) Database Currency (1) In many receivers, an up-datable database is used for navigation fixes, airports and instrument procedures. These databases must be maintained to the current update for IFR operations, but no such requirement exists for VFR use. (2) However,...

AIM 1-1-19f1(b) Equipment and Database Requirements - For IFR Operations "All approach procedures to be flown must be retrievable from the current airborne navigation database..."

AC 90-100, U.S. TERMINAL AND EN ROUTE AREA NAVIGATION (RNAV) OPERATIONS, paragraph 8a(3): The onboard navigation data must be current and appropriate for the region of intended operation and must include the navigation aids, waypoints, and relevant coded terminal airspace procedures for the departure, arrival, and alternate airfields.

Navigation databases are expected to be current for the duration of the flight. If the AIRAC cycle will change during flight, operators and pilots should establish procedures to ensure the accuracy of navigation data, including suitability of navigation facilities used to define the routes and procedures for flight. Traditionally, this has been accomplished by verifying electronic data against paper products. One acceptable means is to compare aeronautical charts (new and old) to verify navigation fixes prior to dispatch. If an amended chart is published for the procedure, the database must not be used to conduct the operation."

Published instrument procedures and routes are incorporated by reference into 14 CFR Part 95 and 14 CFR Part 97, are "law." They are "effective" only during the AIRAC cycle dates specified on the enroute chart/TPP covers or on the side of the chart when printed from the digital-TPP. If you are using a published procedure before or after the dates specified on the chart under IFR, you are technically in violation of the law.
 
I recently went on a flight with a fiend and his newly purchased airplane. It is a very nice flyer and well appointed with lots of glass: GTN750, the new Garmin ratio replacement for the KX155, and two GX3 10” touch screens, one for the pilot side, a second for the passenger side.

During power up of the avionics, I noted the his screen showed the nav database in the current cycle, but the 750 and the G3x in front of me was out of date. The G3x in front of him was current.

Can someone provide guidance and a rule or AC citation that either permits this “one is current but others are not is satisfactory” or says “all must be current”.

Currently he is only a VFR private pilot, but He said he wishes to obtain his IFR ticket by late summer. I would like to make sure he understands what he should be doing database wise to be “legal” once he begins training and eventually obtains the rating.

My initial guess is that he needs to have current databases in the GTN and his primary PFD.

But that’s a guess and I’d like to expand my knowledge with what the proper rules answer is.

The G3X GPS appears to be VFR only. If the G3X is paired with the GTN 750, is the G3X functioning as a display and the GTN750 is the GPS and navigational database? If so, assuming everything else in the avionics equipment bundle is IFR approved, based on what's pasted below, whichever database is being used for IFR navigation needs to be current. So if the GTN 750 is used as the navigation source that is paired with the G3X display, then as long as the GTN 750 IFR database is current, the G3X display should be able to be used for IFR, even if the G3X database is not current. He/she wouldn't technically be able to use the G3X to fly IFR if only the G3X database is current.

As long as the GTN 750 is current, he/she could also navigate off the GTN 750 screen and use the VOR/LOC/ILS CDI/GS display to which it is coupled for the IFR nav.

From what I could find about the G3X: https://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/g3x-touch-for-certified-aircraft

"The GPS receiver built into the display is certified for VFR navigation only"

"Valid for use in VFR- and IFR-capable installations, the certified G3X Touch displays are designed to interface with select autopilots, including our GFC 500 digital autopilot³. Fully coupled LPV/LNAV/ILS approach capability — including missed approach procedures — can be accessed when the G3X Touch displays are paired with the GFC 500 autopilot and a compatible navigation source, such as the GTN™ 750 or GTN 650 series."

From the FAR/AIM 1-1-17 IFR section:
(b) Database Requirements. The onboard
navigation data must be current and appropriate for
the region of intended operation and should include
the navigation aids, waypoints, and relevant coded
terminal airspace procedures for the departure,
arrival, and alternate airfields.
(3) All approach procedures to be flown
must be retrievable from the current airborne
navigation database supplied by the equipment
manufacturer or other FAA−approved source.
 
Two things I can think of:
  1. Whichever device is used for IFR navigation/guidance is the one where the database currency question applies. If there is additional avionics on board which does not drive the very HSI or CDI you or the autopilot are looking at, who cares?
  2. Check the AFM Supplement (AFMS) for the devices in question. The FARs may not require them to have a current database, but the AFMS may be more restrictive.
- Martin
 
The only DB that needs to be current at a min for IFR flight should be the GTN750. As also said by a prior poster, the G3x map screens are for situational awareness (VFR) and whether they are current or not, doesn’t matter for VFR. For VFR, frankly, altitude, airspeed, and heading are really all one might need I suppose from the G3x. Also, in case it is helpful to you, though the G3x displays do have an independent WAAS GPS internally, they are not “legal” for IFR purposes. You must use an external IFR navigator. Having said that, they can certainly help in a pinch if you lose your main IFR NAV unit for sure. I have this same/similar setup in my Glasair as well.
 
All those geegaws and only 3 breakers... :cheerswine:
The original builder of this RV-14a has them tucked away on a center console positioned about where your shin would be when sitting in the airplane.
 
Two things I can think of:
  1. Whichever device is used for IFR navigation/guidance is the one where the database currency question applies. If there is additional avionics on board which does not drive the very HSI or CDI you or the autopilot are looking at, who cares?
  2. Check the AFM Supplement (AFMS) for the devices in question. The FARs may not require them to have a current database, but the AFMS may be more restrictive.
- Martin
You might be on a good track here.... "Which ever device used for IFR Navigation" might answer my question. As far as I know, the GTN 750 is the only device where he could load and activate an IFR procedure (SID/STAR/Approach). So my buddy will need to be sure to keep that one in the current cycle if he is flying IFR.

I need to read up on the G3X's to see how they are making use of the database. While I have some familiarity with the GTN's, this was my first exposure to the G3x's
 
What's the airplane type?
RV-14A. And after my ride in it and his sharing of his recent flight experiences, I am adding to my "when I can afford to own an airplane" bucket list. What it is and does fits many of the checkboxes on my airplane need/want list.

RV14a.png
 
Mike, nice RV-14A. Great looking bird. Another point for your friend -- the full DB update in a "onepak bundle" is priced at $799 per year and this is US + geo-referenced plates on the 750 and G3x. Without geo-referenced plates, it is $648. If you already are using Foreflight/GPilot for plates, this might be an option for him/her. A cheaper way is to only update just the GTN750 with just the nav data only (no obstacle, terrain, taxi, or plates) for $299 per year. The altogether cheapest way is a one time update at $129 for the GTN 750. I don't know how realistic this is given that he/she wants to fly IFR and will need to keep DBs updated. That experimental plane has about $30k-$35k wrapped up in avionics alone, so I assume that paying the $55-$66/mo to keep the full suite current is just a drop in the bucket.
 
@chemgeek @denverpilot @Stewartb

At the moment, he is a decent stick newish private pilot who has just entered the realm of ownership that includes keeping up with the nav databases. His past experience was being a member of a club where someone else kept up with nav currency.

I wish to make sure to provide him accurate info on what he need to be doing once he gets deeper into IFR territory.

“Teach them right the first time” as the FOI’s say

I'd rather he teach ME how to crank enough $$$ to roll in the RV14 fully decked out ... if you can find one for sale, it lists HIGHER than the RV10.
 
The database that needs to be current, with current meaning for the navigation that you plan on doing (you can have an out of date database and still be legal if the route you are taking and approach you plan on doing haven't changed), is he one that is driving your IFR navigator. The database in the G3x is VFR only and a backup. For IFR legality, in the plane your friend has, the 750 is what matters. The best deal is getting a OnePak from Garmin (or the Avidyne equivalent) that covers everything in the airplane.
 
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