FAA seems to encourage self weather/pre flight briefings

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Walboy

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Walboy
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I know there is still a big following that uses the briefers but I've always viewed it as a major possible error.

The briefer has to read it back to you correctly, you have to copy it down correctly and of course, the briefer needs to assess and determine what data is relevant to your flight path which may lead to unintentional omissions. Doing it all my self via Duats and now 1800wxbrief.com, I get the full picture and the only possible error is my interpretation of the data.

I still like to use briefers as a last-minute check on long XC's for any changes to conditions or forecasts but haven't used them as anything other than a backup since I started flying in the 2000's.

I am however very disappointed and finding it difficult to adapt to the removal of the text based weather; the graphics are easy to read but I feel like there's a great deal of sublties that they miss out on.
 
apr911 said:
The briefer has to read it back to you correctly, you have to copy it down correctly and of course, the briefer needs to assess and determine what data is relevant to your flight path which may lead to unintentional omissions. Doing it all my self via Duats and now 1800wxbrief.com, I get the full picture and the only possible error is my interpretation of the data.
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Just huh?
 
RyanShort1 said:
Just huh?
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Not really sure how to explain that better. You're talking to a live person, people make mistakes. Sure it's their job and it's been done for decades but that doesn't mean the person you're talking to isn't some rookie. You're putting your trust and faith in someone else reading back information they have on a screen. I've always been uncomfortable with that.

Who's to say he didn't accidentally skip a line and miss informing me about the line of thunderstorms coming in or to assess that the low pressure that will be here in another day or 2 isn't a factor to my specific flight so doesn't bring it up... If my trip is a day or 2 long, that low pressure may leave me socked in. I don't know that its ever happened but it does leave me with an uneasy feeling and I want to see it with my own eyes to verify.
 
apr911 said:
You're talking to a live person, people make mistakes. Sure it's their job and it's been done for decades but that doesn't mean the person you're talking to isn't some rookie. You're putting your trust and faith in someone else reading back information they have on a screen. I've always been uncomfortable with that.
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Yup, I've had a briefer give me information for the wrong waypoint before. Luckily we both figured it out before the call ended.

In addition, Flight Service has deployed new capabilities available for use on Alexa and Google Assistant.
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Alexa reading back NOTAMS? :eek:
 
apr911 said:
Not really sure how to explain that better. You're talking to a live person, people make mistakes. Sure it's their job and it's been done for decades but that doesn't mean the person you're talking to isn't some rookie. You're putting your trust and faith in someone else reading back information they have on a screen. I've always been uncomfortable with that.

Who's to say he didn't accidentally skip a line and miss informing me about the line of thunderstorms coming in or to assess that the low pressure that will be here in another day or 2 isn't a factor to my specific flight so doesn't bring it up... If my trip is a day or 2 long, that low pressure may leave me socked in. I don't know that its ever happened but it does leave me with an uneasy feeling and I want to see it with my own eyes to verify.
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Meh. It's supplemented by overview information at a minimum. If he missed a line, but you didn't get the big picture based on the multiple sources they read from, you probably are going to miss that same information on your self-briefing, so still, meh, and huh?
 
I like talking to a briefer for long distances and/or during challenging weather situations.

I figure they’re professional and less apt to miss something than I. They’ve been on-shift talking about the weather since they walked in to work.

Easy Arizona VFR? Easy CA coastal IFR? No briefer. I will use automated tools.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Meh. It's supplemented by overview information at a minimum. If he missed a line, but you didn't get the big picture based on the multiple sources they read from, you probably are going to miss that same information on your self-briefing, so still, meh, and huh?
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Maybe, maybe not.
If a briefer misses or incorrectly communicates something then what?
If I mishear, miscopy or misinterpret something the briefer says for use in a flight later that day and/or later interpret the information differently, then yes its on me but that is hardly an uncommon occurrence (there's a reason we read back clearances). If I cut out the middle man and go directly to the source then I remove that possible source of error and again it is 100% on me to correctly interpret the full data provided.

You have multi-step process involving multiple people and multiple points at which there could be an error:
1) Communication of route to briefer
2) Briefer entry of route into computer
3) Briefer interpretation of weather information
4) Briefer readback of applicable weather information
5) Communication between briefer and pilot of applicable weather information
6) Pilots copying of applicable weather information
7) Pilots interpretation of weather information

The point I was making was that if I self brief and I review all the information and I miss something, I cut the sources of possible error by more than half and its 100% on me; there can be no question of what was said and were the error was introduced and by whom:
1) Pilot entry of route into computer
2) Pilot interpretation of weather information

The self briefing tools are never going to misread, miscopy or misinterpret something in their data. They only present the raw data for review. That's what i was getting at.

There are also plenty of cases where the briefer and the pilot have arrived at entirely different conclusions regarding the safety of the flight. The most-reported or well known of these is when the pilot makes a determination to conduct the flight against briefer guidance but it stands to reason that the other happens from time to time too and not just because of "personal minimums" but because the briefer ends up being wrong. Sure it's good to have a second set of eyes and get a second opinion which is why I will call the briefing service for last minute updates but I dont rely on it as the sole and/or primary source of information for my flight; the briefer should just be confirming that which I already know and maybe providing an update on an developing weather or airspace event.
 
The FAA told YOU to change with the times?

Lolz

And getting rid of the phone briefer is BS, we are still going to be paying the same fees/faxes/etc and now get even less services for our money.
In the real world when you cut what you offer customers and change the same price you risk loosing customers and ultimately your business, luckily for the FAA the government is the only monopoly the government allows, and for obvious reasons
 
Walboy said:
...they are encouraging other ways to obtain a briefing and specifically that you don't have to call in to get one. There are a lot of people unaware of that.
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Those unaware people must have been living under a rock for the last decade or two. Excellent self briefing products have been around for a while.
 
The last I heard the cost of a telephone briefing to the tax payer was $25 and a online briefing was 50 cents.

If the FAA charged for a telephone briefing, I suspect people would get on board for the online product.
 
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I talked with the Leidos rep in Oshkosh last summer. Their long term plan is to get out of the voice flight briefing business. They want all briefings to be self briefings via their website or an approved vendor app. The current bottleneck is Flight Service Stations. The guy was saying they either hope the FAA allows them to close the four remaining ones or go to an automated voice system like customer service phone lines use.

He said talking to an actual person isn’t needed anymore as the same or better information is available on their website.
 
I haven't called a briefer since, maybe the early 1990s? There are a plethora of good planning tools today, including Leidos. My EFB aggregates much of what I need with one click these days.
 
I've called for a briefing exactly once, when I was learning flight planning for my ppl cross countries. Didn't take long to figure out he was just reading the info generated by the website verbatim. I'd much rather read it myself at my own pace.
 
I do all three of the things people have already mentioned - I use a few different sources to get weather and NOTAMs at home or in the office. Maybe it is a bit old-school, but I call up a briefer about 20 minutes from the airport for a briefing. I live about 35 minutes away, so it's no big deal to just listen to the person give me the info over the car speakers. And I like the cross-check that I didn't miss anything. Then the third thing is Garmin Pilot aggregates everything on my iPad just before and during the flight.
 
Clip4 said:
The last I heard the cost of a telephone briefing to the tax payer was $25 and a online briefing was 50 cents.

If the FAA charged for a telephone briefing, I suspect people would get on board for the online product.
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....they do charge you for the briefing, even if you don’t call in, it’s those taxes you pay otherwise the men with guns come for you.
 
James331 said:
....they do charge you for the briefing, even if you don’t call in, it’s those taxes you pay otherwise the men with guns come for you.
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Oh yea, people are paying taxes for that service. Most of them thru tickets taxes and many who never fly in an airplane all year. Someone else is paying most of the taxes for your share of FAA services. That is not counting the part of the federal budget that is deficit spending.

Requiring private pilots, who have to be able to read and comprehend English and use weather products to get their certificates, to use online WX is not unreasonable vs increasing taxes.
 
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I called in today and got great service. Was flying a 1946 Cessna 140 and I want to still be able to get a weather briefing without technology besides a phone.
 
I've called a few times for a specific issue I couldn't get from the internet briefing. Most of the time, it was not all that helpful. Looking for things like where are the tops expected to be or how fast is a front moving. In general, I find the 1800WX website to be far better than what I get over the phone. Add Windy for longer range stuff and hard to justify calling for anything. I walked through the online briefing for my XC in my IFR oral and had no weather questions once done. You do need to know what weather is all about, so can see the need for a human to help, but I'm fine with on-line.
 
Pilawt said:
Once upon a time you could talk to a briefer face-to-face. Sometimes the best go/no-go information was the look in the briefer's eye.

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I have no doubt! When talking to the guy he said their briefers are instructed to just read off the information and not to inject their own opinions. I’ve had several briefers over the years that said the same thing. Thankfully, I’ve had few briefers disregard that “rule” and give me the skinny. One kept us from launching into a forming squall line one cloudless night in Tulsa.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I called in today and got great service. Was flying a 1946 Cessna 140 and I want to still be able to get a weather briefing without technology besides a phone.
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If you consider a phone talking to a guy using a computer 1000 miles away no technology.
 
When the briefers were all around the country, maybe at one of your local airports, you got excellent local knowledge and experience married to the national weather products. The briefer you talk to today is probably far, far, away and likely lacks that specific local knowledge. I think the last time I called Flight Service with my departure airport ID they had no idea where I was on a map of the US.
 
chemgeek said:
When the briefers were all around the country, maybe at one of your local airports, you got excellent local knowledge and experience married to the national weather products. The briefer you talk to today is probably far, far, away and likely lacks that specific local knowledge. I think the last time I called Flight Service with my departure airport ID they had no idea where I was on a map of the US.
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That wasn't my experience today. I dunno...
 
I much prefer to self brief and see the information first hand versus trying to picture what someone else is telling me over the phone. Once the internet came about, the days of FSS were numbered. I'm just surprised it has taken this long.

Granted we still use teletype abbreviations for NOTAMs and METARs. Who here ever saw a real teletype?
 
midwestpa24 said:
I much prefer to self brief and see the information first hand versus trying to picture what someone else is telling me over the phone. Once the internet came about, the days of FSS were numbered. I'm just surprised it has taken this long.

Granted we still use teletype abbreviations for NOTAMs and METARs. Who here ever saw a real teletype?
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Me; in the 90s. 1990s just to be clear. Had to use one to program a PBX - until I showed them how to hook it up to a computer terminal instead.
 
I stopped getting briefings a long time ago. Foreflight briefings are recorded and always handy. I have a few other favorite sources such as USAirnet and wunderground. Online weather in some ways is more complete than a briefing although it is not pointing out events such as icing or turbulence, you have to specifically look for it.
 
The US military, believe it or not, (it is a federal bureaocracy), has been way out ahead for a number of years. The last time I did my required 4 year survival training in the US Navy, the parachute portion was virtual reality. They strapped you to a harness hanging from the ceiling and put on the virtual goggles. You jumped, pulled the handle, activated the 4 line release and steered with programable winds into lakes, forests, at sea, dessert, etc. very realistic. That was about 10 yrs ago. Last time I heard, pilots go from the F-18 simulator directly to the RAG without training on 2-seaters. It’s that high fidelity and its getting better. A brave, new world. There ain’t no stopping this trend.
 
Hmm, call a 1-800 number, talk to someone who will give a deluge of information that I need to write down quickly and in a way I can make sense of later.... or...

Tap a few commands into the iPad and have it all laid out for me in a graphical format that’s easy to understand...

That said I’ve once been in a place with no internet and resorted to the 800 number but I never feel like I have as good of an understanding of what’s going on. The briefer are very competent but to me it’s the difference between looking at a map myself and having someone describe it to me over the phone... literally.
 
I have a friend who is a bit older, 72-ish, he always calls a briefer. He’s not into smart phones & may have poor internet at his house.

I haven’t called anyone in a good number of years. One may have reason to call besides a standard brief, possibly border crossing questions, ginning up a flight plan with no net available, whatever. They may or may not be able to answer the questions.

For things like standard WX, Notams, & TFRs, I can sort that out before they answer the phone.
 
Look, I use my iPad, too, but I think the inability to properly exploit and appreciate the phone call is more of a tell on the complainant than the system. There's no reason why a properly trained pilot shouldn't be able to take the logical flow of the standard briefing format and develop a weather picture in their head based on what they are told. Even if a line or two got skipped, you should have a big picture of what's being said and what you need to know. We're obviously getting to where people are too dependent on graphical information and have too short attention spans and ability to absorb spoken data and that's a bad thing.
 
cowman said:
... the difference between looking at a map myself and having someone describe it to me over the phone... literally.
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Famous George Carlin routine:
...a line of thundershowers which extends from a point 9 miles NNE of Seacaucus, New Jersey, along a line and 6 miles either side of the line to a point 5 miles SSW of Font du Lac...
 
Graphics are worth a 1000 words, I did weather briefing once, during PP training.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Look, I use my iPad, too, but I think the inability to properly exploit and appreciate the phone call is more of a tell on the complainant than the system. There's no reason why a properly trained pilot shouldn't be able to take the logical flow of the standard briefing format and develop a weather picture in their head based on what they are told. Even if a line or two got skipped, you should have a big picture of what's being said and what you need to know. We're obviously getting to where people are too dependent on graphical information and have too short attention spans and ability to absorb spoken data and that's a bad thing.
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To take this to the absurd to make the point.... You can either walk outside and look at the clouds in the sky, or call me and I'll walk outside and describe them to you. Which is better?
 
Salty said:
To take this to the absurd to make the point.... You can either walk outside and look at the clouds in the sky, or call me and I'll walk outside and describe them to you. Which is better?
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If I need to fly to the other side of the state, looking outside probably won't cut it.
 
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