MOA airspace
- Thread starter Peter Ha
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simtech
En-Route
Yep, my wife and I were flying from STF direct to GZH while utilizing FF with ATL center. Before we entered the MOA center advised it was active with 2 vipers in it and asked if we could go around the MOA as he could not provide FF services inside the MOA. Where I was it was a good bit to get around it and with the headwind was going to tack on ALOT of time. So I told center I will stay my course and my current ALT and he let the vipers know and on happily I went and he terminated FF.
Not 10 minutes later fore flight alerted me to traffic coming up on my 6. My wife looked back as it was getting real close and saw one of the F-16's on our tail and then it peeled off and was gone! And I mean gone! The traffic target had his speed over 300kts and going.
it’s not likely the military pilots will know you are there. In most training they switch to a tactical freq inside the MOA. Radar on fast movers is not optimized for slow aircraft and you may be below the speed threshold they are looking for. Once they are maneuvering to a merge the focus is pretty tight with both the radar and visual. The pilots trying to maintain formation, track multiple targets coming at them, run radar and ecam gear and drive the geometry of the merge. At the merge there will be rapid heading and altitude changes no ATC could provide advisories for.
Add in the fact that if they do see you in the MOA they might thump you on principle.
Briar Rabbit
Line Up and Wait
Just curious if you might know where ForeFlight acquired the info of military traffic on your tail? I did not think any military F-16 had ADS-B Out?
My home airport is in an MOA and it is mostly below radar coverage if below about 2 to 3,000 AGL. I never get any warnings on ForeFlight.
I have been on a tractor in the hayfield when they make practice bombing runs, I presume, and they have been close enough that I can wave and sometimes see them wave back. No close calls with my airplane though - at least that I know about.
imwithtuxedo
Pre-takeoff checklist
If the MOA has a tower controlling the area, as most do, the tower has always advised military training aircraft of my position, altitude, and heading. Of course, I can't hear the pilots chatter, but I can hear the tower talking to them.
I had a T-38 swoop under me in the Vance AFB MOA on a recent trip home from Denver.
Huh?
Trundling through a MOA, one might get become a VID target of opportunity, but no sober military aviator is going to intentionally create a safety of flight issue, especially for non-participating aircraft.
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“Tower” as in ATC radar facility (ARTCC/TRACON)? Yes. Tower as in Local Controller? No, most wouldn’t have a clue on what’s going on in a MOA. Only 3 military towers (Fairbanks, Bragg, Pensacola) are controlling agencies for MOAs.
Even with the radar facilities, some have no idea on what’s going on in their MOA. In some cases the participants are up internal and aren’t in two way comms with ATC. In some cases the participants are up a tactical controller (GCI) UHF freq and not talking to ATC. Not all MOAs use the same SOPs.
Pugs
Cleared for Takeoff
Every time I saw a civilian a/c in the MOA or while we were on a VR or IR route my sole idea was to stay away from them. You never had any idea how a civilian aviator was going to react to a jet. Now that I'm a civilian aviator I'm even more scared.
There is no control in a MOA. No Towers are assigned. You are scheduled into the MOA for whatever training you have planned and own the airspace from other military traffic. Entering the MOA you switch to a tactical frequency and the controlling agency for that MOA could not contact you if they wanted to try.
Pugs
Cleared for Takeoff
We usually left radio 2 on the controlling freq. However, they also had sketchy connectivity when we were low in the Okanagon / Washington and Olympic areas we mostly worked. Once I was east coast I don't think we ever worked a MOA with all the coastal Warning areas,
Flying on V 3, southbound, 8,500 feet, and with Flight Following, I was surprised to see a Marine jet approaching from below and to my left, climbing. No call out from my ATC guy. Estimating just where he and I would be as he passed was difficult, as he was in a 30 degree bank toward me, and his climb angle was changing. All 4 of us were tracking, and I did a hard push down as he neared. He passed about 100 yards in front, and 10 feet above me. We could clearly see the pilot was looking straight ahead, or at his instrument panel, and not at us. Without the push down, he would have hit us. Lucky I was scanning well, and saw him coming.
I called my ATC guy with a PIREP, and he responded that the jet had just appeared on his screen, but no problem, it was departing at 300 knots. He also assured me that he had no knowledge of the intentions of the jet, it was on a different system. Then he asked if we could still see it, as it seemed the jet was returning for a second pass, the track was a circle. My two sons had kept him in sight, so we continued to monitor his path. After his peak altitude, he swung back down and entered a low altitude run, and disappeared against the wooded terrain.
Later, on the ground at my destination, I learned that this had taken place at the entry of a low altitude training route. Most likely, he blew the entry, pulled up, circled around, and made a successful entry the second time. And never saw us!
As others have said, the military pilots using the special airspace do not talk to the regular controllers, and ATC has no way to know what they will do.
I filed a records retention request with the FAA, and they claimed they did not have the records, the had been recorded over. My Senator had no luck finding out who's plane that was, either, beyond an opinion that it was Marine, from Cherry Point. Their records were "gone" too.
In terms of a 'bump', a family of 4 flying south across the Chesapeake bay in a Cessna 172 at night, were mistaken for the assigned target to intercept, and due to an understandable error in judging where to turn to get in firing position, they ran into the Cessna. The jet fighter landed at Patuxent with minor damage, the Cessna fell in multiple pieces, both the plane and the people.
A "bump" of the worst kind. The Cessna was in radio contact with ATC, and on course with their flight plan. Since the jet came from directly behind, they had no possibility of seeing him. Just being outside the MOA's is not enough.
I have had several other close calls with military aircraft.
I called my ATC guy with a PIREP, and he responded that the jet had just appeared on his screen, but no problem, it was departing at 300 knots. He also assured me that he had no knowledge of the intentions of the jet, it was on a different system. Then he asked if we could still see it, as it seemed the jet was returning for a second pass, the track was a circle. My two sons had kept him in sight, so we continued to monitor his path. After his peak altitude, he swung back down and entered a low altitude run, and disappeared against the wooded terrain.
Later, on the ground at my destination, I learned that this had taken place at the entry of a low altitude training route. Most likely, he blew the entry, pulled up, circled around, and made a successful entry the second time. And never saw us!
As others have said, the military pilots using the special airspace do not talk to the regular controllers, and ATC has no way to know what they will do.
I filed a records retention request with the FAA, and they claimed they did not have the records, the had been recorded over. My Senator had no luck finding out who's plane that was, either, beyond an opinion that it was Marine, from Cherry Point. Their records were "gone" too.
In terms of a 'bump', a family of 4 flying south across the Chesapeake bay in a Cessna 172 at night, were mistaken for the assigned target to intercept, and due to an understandable error in judging where to turn to get in firing position, they ran into the Cessna. The jet fighter landed at Patuxent with minor damage, the Cessna fell in multiple pieces, both the plane and the people.
A "bump" of the worst kind. The Cessna was in radio contact with ATC, and on course with their flight plan. Since the jet came from directly behind, they had no possibility of seeing him. Just being outside the MOA's is not enough.
I have had several other close calls with military aircraft.
in every multi plane tactical training event I participated in if the type aircraft had a second radio it was used for interflight communications. That was SOP. I suppose if it was some type of solo training you could monitor another freq.
What, and when, exactly was your military experience?
Pugs
Cleared for Takeoff
Nomenclature - we kept radio 1 up the controlling freq and used radio 2 for tactical comms. Point being, we monitored the controlling freq as well. Even in the Warning area we listened to Beaver SOCAL or the ship and East coast it was Huntress or Giant Killer for most areas we used and PacNW was Downrigger.
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bflynn
Final Approach
If there were missiles or artillery (deadly threats), it would be a Restricted area, not a MOA. In a MOA, you might see some military aircraft practicing something. Keep clear of them and just go about your business. They may wait for you to cross, so if you can avoid the area, it's courteous to do so. I believe ATC can tell you if the MOA is hot.
A small course change might let you avoid the area and add just a few minutes to your flight. I'm amazed at how little additional time course deviations add.
Honestly, I'm baffled by there being any confusion in this. During my private, the differences between MOA, Alert, Warning, Restricted and Prohibited areas was very clearly taught.
A small course change might let you avoid the area and add just a few minutes to your flight. I'm amazed at how little additional time course deviations add.
Honestly, I'm baffled by there being any confusion in this. During my private, the differences between MOA, Alert, Warning, Restricted and Prohibited areas was very clearly taught.
Pugs
Cleared for Takeoff
Sealord!
And Seawitch flying out of Puerto Rico in the Op Areas. Those were the days.
sourdough44
En-Route
Say the MOA floor is 7000’ & because of weather you’re at 7,500’, transversing. That’s a little better than going through higher in the MOA airspace. Back in the day we’d get a call, ‘stay above 10k’, until that interloper passed.
Yeah, it all depends what’s going on & airspace setup. Some airports sit under a MOA with a 1500’ carve-out, impossible to get in with working the edges.
Yeah, it all depends what’s going on & airspace setup. Some airports sit under a MOA with a 1500’ carve-out, impossible to get in with working the edges.
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To be honest, I don’t remember my instructor covering any SUA. In fact, we were out training one day and an F-16 banked in front of us maybe 1/4 mile away. He commented on how unusual that was. I told him that the MOAs were active. He was like “What!? I have the controls...we’re not allowed to be out here when they’re active.” We flew directly back to the airport. Now, I didn’t correct him but it was clear that he didn’t realize that we were allowed to be in the MOAs while VFR.
It’s not the first time that I’ve heard someone misunderstand the operating procedures of SUA. Heck, I know of a professional pilot who thought the Alert Area we discussed earlier was off limits to nonparticipating aircraft.
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Witmo
Pattern Altitude
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Tim
Every military aircraft I ever flew had the ability to monitor guard and ATC could always get in touch.
35 AoA
Pattern Altitude
While certainly true in my experience as well, I think what Jeff is getting at is that frequently the COMM1/"front radio" is up a discrete tactical frequency so as to not blow up center with tactical comms. COMM2 usually being reserved to the inter flight tactical "aux" frequency. But yes, ATC should still be able to reach out on guard, provided that the folks participating have not deselected guard monitoring on both radios.
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There’s no standard comm procedures in all MOAs. That goes for all SUAs for that matter. Being able to communicate on guard is a given. That’s completely different than REQUIRING maintaining two way comms between the controlling agency and using agency.
As I stated earlier, some are in comms with the controlling agency, some are in comms with a military ATC / GCI / AWACS agency, and some are just up internal freqs. Whether or not a nonparticipating aircraft gets FF thru that airspace has to do with 1) what type of agency (above) that you’re dealing with, 2) what’s stated in the LOA / LOP between the using agency and controlling agency and 3) whether or not that particular controller wants to use “workload” or “equipment limitations” excuse to provide that service.
As I always say, all SUAs aren’t created equal. While the basic AIM definition applies, one MOA and the procedures and activities contained therein, could be completely different than another. And that goes for all SUA. I’ve flown probably 500 hrs just in Restricted Areas alone and no two are the same.
As I stated earlier, some are in comms with the controlling agency, some are in comms with a military ATC / GCI / AWACS agency, and some are just up internal freqs. Whether or not a nonparticipating aircraft gets FF thru that airspace has to do with 1) what type of agency (above) that you’re dealing with, 2) what’s stated in the LOA / LOP between the using agency and controlling agency and 3) whether or not that particular controller wants to use “workload” or “equipment limitations” excuse to provide that service.
As I always say, all SUAs aren’t created equal. While the basic AIM definition applies, one MOA and the procedures and activities contained therein, could be completely different than another. And that goes for all SUA. I’ve flown probably 500 hrs just in Restricted Areas alone and no two are the same.
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simtech
En-Route
My aircraft is ADS-B out and In equiped so Im getting Tis-B traffic within my hockey puck around me as long as those aircraft are in radar contact. So I assume since Center knew where there were, they must have been in radar contact and as they approached me I got traffic alert and saw it in FF.
1981 to 2000. FA18, A4 SuperFox, F5
35 AoA
Pattern Altitude
Figured you were a USN or USMC guy.....things have probably changed since then, but nothing you mentioned has
KROW is a good stop or was several years ago. Restaurant had good food and there was always interesting traffic. Tons of F-117s, C-5s and 777s doing touch and goes never knew what you were going to see! If you RON try to allow some time to people watch at the UFO museum. Taxi service was a problem so better to rent a car.
Always check status of MOAs during flight and get FF if possible. Sometimes they get activated with little advanced warning. Also keep a good look out because sometimes the limits (vertical and horizontal) get transgressed. Think about it, the nature of military activity being conducted in these areas do not leave a lot of margin for flying's inevitable oopsies.
Always check status of MOAs during flight and get FF if possible. Sometimes they get activated with little advanced warning. Also keep a good look out because sometimes the limits (vertical and horizontal) get transgressed. Think about it, the nature of military activity being conducted in these areas do not leave a lot of margin for flying's inevitable oopsies.