BOEING 767F crash near Houston in the bay Atlas cargo

[flyingcheesehead]

But there is a sidestick priority button (red) on the Airbus sidestick controller which over rides the input of the opposite stick.

What happens when both priority buttons are pushed? And why don't they have more noticeable alarms when there are two inputs coming in? AF447 had that and I think both pilots were oblivious to what the other was doing. This is one of Airbus' dumbest design decisions, IMO. There should NEVER be more than one person flying the airplane. Period, end of story, EVER. There aren't a lot of absolutes in life, but this is one of them. Why on earth do they allow it at all?

 

[denverpilot]

What happens when both priority buttons are pushed? And why don't they have more noticeable alarms when there are two inputs coming in? AF447 had that and I think both pilots were oblivious to what the other was doing. This is one of Airbus' dumbest design decisions, IMO. There should NEVER be more than one person flying the airplane. Period, end of story, EVER. There aren't a lot of absolutes in life, but this is one of them. Why on earth do they allow it at all?

If I had to guess I would say that there have been a couple of incidents and accidents where both needed to pull.

Teamwork good. Confused cowboys bad.

 

[Doc Holliday]

What happens when both priority buttons are pushed? And why don't they have more noticeable alarms when there are two inputs coming in? AF447 had that and I think both pilots were oblivious to what the other was doing. This is one of Airbus' dumbest design decisions, IMO. There should NEVER be more than one person flying the airplane. Period, end of story, EVER. There aren't a lot of absolutes in life, but this is one of them. Why on earth do they allow it at all?

The first button pushed gains the priority. The chances of both buttons being pushed at the exact same second are astronomical. Plus, when the button is pushed there is a visual and verbal annunciator.

https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/app/themes/mh_newsdesk/documents/archives/dual-side-stick-inputs.pdf

 

[Larry in TN]

The chances of both buttons being pushed at the exact same second are astronomical.

It's probably not possible.

The computer can't look at two things at once. It has to look at one button before the other. Even if both buttons were pushed esactly at the same time, the computer will "see" one of them first.

Then, a fraction of a second later, it will "see" the other one.

 

[3393RP]

It's probably not possible.

The computer can't look at two things at once. It has to look at one button before the other. Even if both buttons were pushed esactly at the same time, the computer will "see" one of them first.

Then, a fraction of a second later, it will "see" the other one.

Einstein's Special Relativity Theory says it isn't possible for two events to occur simultaneously. So there's that.

 

[Bell206]

Probable cause to be determined July 14th by the Board.
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20200611.aspx

 

[BrianNC]

NTSB Cites Disturbing Cause Of Fatal Atlas Air Crash
The Safety Board’s report describes a number of causal and contributing factors, leading it to recommend new rules that could have wide-reaching effects on pilots.

https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/ne...es-disturbing-cause-of-fatal-atlas-air-crash/

 

[IK04]

I was thinking this was what really happened and I was correct. Based on the POC (Right seat), he said "We're stalling." as the airplane accelerated through 240+ KIAS.

It made me wonder if any private or professional pilots get any aeromedical training, which is a routine part of all military flight schools.

Oculogravic and oculoagravic illusions are well know to pilots of high speed military airplanes and helicopters. Anyone who has driven a drag race in a potent car recognizes the feeling and knows to compensate for it. The marginally trained and poorly disciplined (according to the report) pilot made a ridiculously big control input based on a false sense of pitch movement and put the airplane in an unrecoverable attitude.

My question is: Why in the world was the Go Around button armed and available in the airplane's cruise configuration?

 

[Larry in TN]

Based on the POC (Right seat), he said "We're stalling." as the airplane decelerated through 140+ KIAS.

140 KIAS at Flaps 1 in a 767-300 would most certainly be well into a full stall. According to the NTSB recreation, they were never less than 228 KIAS during the event and were at 279 KIAS, and accellerating, when a stall was first mentioned on the CVR.

My question is: Why in the world was the Go Around button armed and available in the airplane's cruise configuration?

Because Flaps 1 was selected.

When GA mode is activated, the speed window opens at the current airspeed, the F/D (and autopilot if one of the three autopilots are in CMD) will pitch for the speed in the speed window. The autothrottle will increase power to obtain a climb of approximately 2000fpm. For a full-power climb, the GA paddles must be hit a second time. The lower-thrust GA (2000fpm) is more than sufficient for almost all go-arounds.

On the accident flight, the F/D bars were commanding a nose-up attitude but the pilot-flying pushed the nose down to nearly 40 degrees below the horizon.

 

[Bill]

On the accident flight, the F/D bars were commanding a nose-up attitude but the pilot-flying pushed the nose down to nearly 40 degrees below the horizon.

I wonder if he confused the FD bars for the AI itself?

 

[Larry in TN]

I wonder if he confused the FD bars for the AI itself?

I'll stick with the NTSB's analysis.

 

[IK04]

140 KIAS at Flaps 1 in a 767-300 would most certainly be well into a full stall. According to the NTSB recreation, they were never less than 228 KIAS during the event and were at 279 KIAS, and accellerating, when a stall was first mentioned on the CVR.

Man, did I mess that up... I meant to say "he said "We're stalling." as the airplane accelerated through 240+ KIAS. I fixed it in the post...

 

[kyleb]

140 KIAS at Flaps 1 in a 767-300 would most certainly be well into a full stall.

That's a lot higher than I'd have expected. What is the normal stall speed in that configuration? What is the stall speed with the airplane with full flaps, slats extended, etc?

 

[Larry in TN]

That's a lot higher than I'd have expected. What is the normal stall speed in that configuration? What is the stall speed with the airplane with full flaps, slats extended, etc?

It varies significantly with weight and flap setting.

It isn't something we know. The applicable minimum maneuvering speeds are bugged on the airspeed indicators for each departure and arrival. On those with the updated software, or a flat-panel conversion, you get a series bugs that change with each change in flap setting. You'll see your current min-maneuvering speed as well as the max extension speed for the next flap setting in the normal flap schedule. On takeoff, you see bugs for the next scheduled flap retraction speed as well as your clean maneuvering speed.

With a heavy 767-300, I'm guessing (haven't flown one since 2013) that your clean maneuvering speed at max landing weight would be in the mid-230's with a Vref in the mid-140s with landing flaps. Fly the same airplane nearly empty and you'll see speeds that make you feel like you're going to fall out of the sky and like you're hovering on Final. The difference is that big.

I remember an approach in a nearly-empty 757-200 I flew to BDL. Approach kept telling the regional flight behind us to slow down, at one point telling him that he had "50 kts on the 757" he was following. I figured it was probably a CRJ-200, which has a relatively high approach speed due to it's lack of slats. After landing, I saw that it was actually a Dash-8 which is capable of very low landing speeds! Our Vref was 112 KIAS.

The 737s I fly now allow Flaps 1 and Flaps 5 at 250kts, Flaps 15 at 195 or 200, Flaps 30 at 165, 170, or 180, and Flaps 40 at 156/162/170/171 --Depending on which model. Rule of thumb is that you won't need flaps (due to maneuvering speed) until under 210 kts clean, 190 kts Flaps 5, and 170 kts flaps 15. You may need a little higher at very heavy weights. Generally higher numbers on the 767 at the lower flap settings. The highest Target speed (Vref + wind additive) I've had in the 737 was 165 KIAS.

All of that doesn't exactly answer your question but maybe it'll give you a ballpark idea.