Long XC time vs fuel

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
On a long XC you continue to observe your fuel status and based on your IFR planned speeds it looks like you’re not going to make your planned fuel stop- the winds have significantly changed.
You can break off now, land and get fuel or you can slow to max range speed and your quick mental math says you can make the planned fuel stop, which will be after dark, but well before the FBO closes. At max range you can make the airport with just about 45-60min fuel remaining, somewhere between legal and your personal minimum.

To complicate the problem, you’re about 30 minutes before your next ATC mandatory reporting point and the radio is silent due to 250nm of testing in that area of the country during your flight. You have to make a decision.

What do you do?
 
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Is it IMC all the way to the destination? Is there a VMC escape route somewhere? Where are the possible alternates? If you press on, what's your plan B/C/D if the winds get worse?
 
On a long XC you continue to observe your fuel status and based on your IFR planned speeds it looks like you’re not going to make your planned fuel stop- the winds have significantly changed.
You can break off now, land and get fuel or you can slow to max range speed and your quick mental math says you can make the planned fuel stop, which will be after dark, but well before the FBO closes. At max range you can make the airport with just about 45-6min fuel remaining, somewhere between legal and your personal minimum.

To complicate the problem, you’re about 30 minutes before your next ATC mandatory reporting point and the radio is silent due to 250nm of testing in that area of the country during your flight. You have to make a decision.

What do you do?

I’d land and get some fuel, grab a cup of coffee, stretch my legs for a second and get back on my way.

If I’m having to do mental gymnastics for FOB at destination and I am flying over places that have fuel...w...t...f....lol
 
Gee that's hard. I need multiple choice for that one.
You’re on a long XC, having a really good argument with the center controller over a nitty point of an FAR interpretation, when you see you’re gonna need fuel. But to get to the pump, you need to execute a DME arc......
 
I’m landing for fuel where practical. 45 minutes to land is below my minimum, especially planned. Too many Some extra routing, a missed approach, change in winds.
 
Don't let it get to that point, the scenario you describe screams stop for fuel. The planned outage means you should divert sooner. But you really need more info, such as weather at the destination would be a big one. Also, you are supposed to be able to get to your destination then to your alternate with 45 minutes of fuel left at your alternate so 45 minutes, ifr at the destination doesn't work for me.
 
Land and re-assess.

With full fuel you could now overfly that current destination and get fuel at an airport with 24 hour service and better dark-associated options, like runway lighting, etc.. You can check your "quick mental math" and also mitigate the concern about mandatory reporting to ATC and radio silence. You might decide to spend the night or even rent a car for the rest of the trip.

In a way, you're kind of asking if you should eliminate some very useful "outs" in your planning.
 
There are not that many airports here in the west so I will not stretch fuel!! Changing destinations for an unplanned fuel stop is no biggie. Turbulence sloshes the fuel in the tanks so you cannot count on what is in there when the levels get very low. I won't go below 10 gal total (1 hour), 5 gal in each tank is not very much when it is sloshing around!! When I owned a SkyHawk I would run a tank dry, no big deal. But in the fuel injected, low wing I have now I never do. Don't know how long it would take to get the engine going after running one tank dry.
 
Don't let it get to that point, the scenario you describe screams stop for fuel. The planned outage means you should divert sooner. But you really need more info, such as weather at the destination would be a big one. Also, you are supposed to be able to get to your destination then to your alternate with 45 minutes of fuel left at your alternate so 45 minutes, ifr at the destination doesn't work for me.
Right! And thanks for pointing that out- it’s been a long time since IR Groundschool and the scenario is a drawn out version with some made up stuff thrown in to ask a few questions and cover some personal unknowns.

If ATC believes you’re in the air on an IFR plan and you have no way of communicating that you’re landing, obviously safety of flight comes first but how do you deal with the inability to communicate considering the system depends upon you reporting at the next point or someone’s coming to look for you?
 
Right! And thanks for pointing that out- it’s been a long time since IR Groundschool and the scenario is a drawn out version with some made up stuff thrown in to ask a few questions and cover some personal unknowns.

If ATC believes you’re in the air on an IFR plan and you have no way of communicating that you’re landing, obviously safety of flight comes first but how do you deal with the inability to communicate considering the system depends upon you reporting at the next point or someone’s coming to look for you?


Try a towered field youre over? Try to get off a phone call, or a text to someone to get off a phone call, or try flight services freqs, try to get a relay with someone in the FLs. Or just give em a call on the ground.

Ether way that’s not a priority in comparison.

I would have my ears perked up on the local freqs, if uncontrolled, to make sure I wasn’t shooting a approach with someone else on it, presuming IMC.
 
My understanding is once you are underway, there is no “legal” fuel reserve. So push it however far you want to. For myself and most replies, thinking you’ll have 45min when you land isn’t enough.
 
This is something I’ve run into. An IFR planned flight with ample reserves but at max range. In case 1 it was simply a difference between forecast and actual winds. In case 2 it was due to light but undetected icing which slowed me down for a couple of hours of flight.

In case 1 the wind difference became apparent early on. Updated range and endurance estimates were reviewed every 30 mins in synch with tank changes. Though filed IFR, conditions were hard VMC all the way to the destination. So I closely monitored everything and was convinced that I would arrive at the destination with between 5-10 gallons of the 60 I carry. That estimate assumed arrival at cruise altitude (9K) over a 1K airport so there was fudge in there. I would arrive just after dark due to the wind but the FBO would be open (for transportation and hotel help). I had 5 gals when I landed.

Anything under 10 gallons is below my personal mins (IO-540 LOP). That is, I would never plan a flight where I arrive with less than 10 gallons just as I wouldn’t plan a flight with less than IFR reserves. But the reserve is included exactly for such situations and I’ll use part of it in the air if it makes sense to me and doesn’t make my taint quiver (that’s my tell). In recent years wx forecasts and reports have become increasingly accurate and reliable so this kind of thing rarely happens to me any longer. My plane’s instrumentation is accurate and well tested. I have both floats and a flow gauge that I cross check. While the floats are inaccurate with > half full tanks, the last 10 gallons are very accurate. And the flow gauge, after some re-engineering, is accurate to plus/minus 1/2 gallon over the full 60 gallon burn. I have a reliable GPH readout.

Case 2 was the day Hurricane Sandy hit NY.
I was flying from Key West to 8NC8 (KRDU). I can’t recall whether I planned a non-stop or not but I knew it was feasible. The winds from Sandy would slightly benefit the entire flight and I timed it so I would land after it has passed by destination. Arrival would be just after sunset. Took off KEYW in hard VMC but wholly within the influence of Sandy’s low, and off we went. Somewhere over Georgia my speed began to very slightly decay and all the range endurance calculations began to show it. Didn’t know what was happening but monitored it very closely. Conditions were hazy with varying visibility. Over SC it was clear that my personal minimums were going to be cut into if I continued home. But moreover, KRDU was going to be just barely VFR with plenty of clouds and showers to circumvent in the fading light.

About the same time I decided to land at KSOP for fuel I discovered trace amounts of ice on the plane. I concluded that it was the reason for the decayed airspeed ever since we hit the hazy, not quite in cloud, conditions. In any case, the combination of darkness, decaying conditions as we headed north and less than an hour’s fuel left at my final destination told me to land and reassess. No questions.

We did take off after some weather checks, full tanks and some restful thought. The controllers at RDU were ‘were full on’ and when I told them I’d like to land on the grass at 8NC8, they told me, “we’ll get you in there, fly....”. They took me around the cloudy parts and I did the downhill, gusty wind, night time landing to my home ‘port. Very satisfying end to the day and very comfortable with 5+ hours of fuel on board.


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You’re on a long XC, having a really good argument with the center controller over a nitty point of an FAR interpretation, when you see you’re gonna need fuel. But to get to the pump, you need to execute a DME arc......
Too easy!
 
My understanding is once you are underway, there is no “legal” fuel reserve.
That's sort of true. FAR 91.167 is definitely a planning regulation, but if you wind up causing an problem because of it, the FAA will look closely at your flight planning, including route selection, to see if it was adequate and covered both destination and alternate. They might even toss in a careless/reckless for your in-flight decision to press on in the face of reality.
 
somewhere between legal and your personal minimum.
Not sure if you edited this or I missed it the first time, but violating personal minimums is a slippery slope. Just say no. :nono:
 
This is a no-brainer, and it hasn't changed for me in 30 years of IFR flying. Anytime I will violate 1 full hour reserve fuel at my destination arrival (or more if an alternate is required, justified, and/or filed), or even have reason to think that may happen, I will divert and take on fuel. Period. I'll even stop on a VFR trip in these conditions. Bingo time is Bingo time. When you start "stretching" your personal restrictions, you will eventually wind up in a whale of a pickle.

The only time I have played the "throttle back" game was a trip to Waterville, ME, where a normal power setting would have just under my required reserve at arrival in expected VFR conditions. Throttling back 150 rpm, painful as it was for groundspeed, extended my range enough in planning to make the trip without the fuel stop, and the pre-flight enroute time estimates held up during the flight. Had winds been more adverse than forecast, I would have just throttled up to make up some time and make my intermediate fuel stop.

You can certainly encounter adversity in flying, but running yourself out of fuel should never be one of them. That's a 100% avoidable error that should be easy to see coming.
 
Not sure if you edited this or I missed it the first time, but violating personal minimums is a slippery slope. Just say no. :nono:
Didn’t edit that part of the OP just a spelling error I found in 45-60mins when I previously had 45-6mins.
 
The salient point of the original conditions that I think is getting missed in the responses (or perhaps you guys see it as negligible) are:
IFR flight without comms capability over a significant portion of the flight

How do you execute a deviation in-flight when you’re IFR (and for good measure I’ll add that it’s IMC when you have to make the decision). There is no radio, no cell phone service, no SMS, NOTHING except ability to talk to another warm body WHEN you have the ability to get within arm’s distance ON THE GROUND.
 
The salient point of the original conditions that I think is getting missed in the responses (or perhaps you guys see it as negligible) are:
IFR flight without comms capability over a significant portion of the flight

How do you execute a deviation in-flight when you’re IFR (and for good measure I’ll add that it’s IMC when you have to make the decision). There is no radio, no cell phone service, no SMS, NOTHING except ability to talk to another warm body WHEN you have the ability to get within arm’s distance ON THE GROUND.

So one hypothetically planned a flight with marginal reserves at the destination due to winds aloft, and did so knowing it would be IMC with a long segment of flight that would leave you without communication? Despite all this, if you are able to communicate in 30 minutes without being fuel critical, it would be prudent to inform ATC that you will divert to a fuel stop if there is ANY doubt about having adequate personal fuel reserves at the destination. Better to be 30 minutes late and fuel-stress-free than chewing your fingernails about your fuel situation, or worse, running out of fuel at your destination while in IMC. Don't mess with fuel. The accident reports are replete with fuel exhaustion incidents involving pilots that just couldn't believe it would happen to them.
 
The salient point of the original conditions that I think is getting missed in the responses (or perhaps you guys see it as negligible) are:
IFR flight without comms capability over a significant portion of the flight

How do you execute a deviation in-flight when you’re IFR (and for good measure I’ll add that it’s IMC when you have to make the decision). There is no radio, no cell phone service, no SMS, NOTHING except ability to talk to another warm body WHEN you have the ability to get within arm’s distance ON THE GROUND.

Depends, if it is an emergency you have authority to do what you need to do. Running low on fuel can be considered an emergency. That said, you can just turn around and go back to where you came from, again, that emergency thing. Save yourself, sort it out on the ground.
 
It's unclear to me if you're IFR in IMC or IFR in VMC, but I'm going to assume you're IFR in IMC.

This would be a lost comms type scenario, where the assigned, vectored, expected, filed rules would apply. Assuming my radios actually work, if I calculated that, if I throttle back, I'd have 45-60 min of fuel remaining on touchdown at my planned stop, I'd likely continue on my designated route while trying to pick up someone on 121.5, a local tower/airfield, over a VOR/RCO (FSS), or finally with ATC somewhere along my route and then work something out.

If I was too worried about the fuel now (maybe I didn't tighten my fuel cap and fuel was sucked out of the tank) or got to a point where I was too worried and I wanted to divert/deviate and I couldn't pick any one up on 121.5 a local tower or I didn't think I could make to a point along my route where I could communicate with someone over a local tower/airfield, cell phone, VOR (i.e. FSS) or ATC to request to divert, then I could squawk 7600 and exercise my right under FAR 91.3(b) in an effort to prevent the situation from becoming an emergency (in-flight fuel exhaustion) and worry about explaining the deviation later. In that case, if I have ADS-B, I'd look for the nearest VFR airport or conditions & cross reference w my maps so that when I pop out of the clouds, I'd do it in some measure of time/altitude to avoid whatever. If it's low IFR everywhere, that's going to be tough cause I'd be operating in the blind. ADS-B does offer some measure of TIS so that'll help. I would just have to plan an approach into a nearby airfield based on the available info.

If you're IFR in VMC, that's easy, you can divert and call ATC once on the ground.
 
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The salient point of the original conditions that I think is getting missed in the responses (or perhaps you guys see it as negligible) are:
IFR flight without comms capability over a significant portion of the flight

How do you execute a deviation in-flight when you’re IFR (and for good measure I’ll add that it’s IMC when you have to make the decision). There is no radio, no cell phone service, no SMS, NOTHING except ability to talk to another warm body WHEN you have the ability to get within arm’s distance ON THE GROUND.
ATC will usually call before sending out a search party (or equiv) when you don’t close the flight plan or other issues. Get on the ground, worry about everything else on the ground. I’ve had commercial airlines relay for me when I had no comm direct to ATC or FSS. I would much rather be embarrassed because ATC didn’t know where I was and initiated a search than crashed due to fuel exhaustion and that search party found the remains.
 
Land.
Phone call.
Credit Card meets fuel pump.
Arrive 40 minutes late.

- VFR Pilot so maybe missing something? Seems like you are saying "Should I follow all the rules and kill myself or break a rule, live and make a phone call". Its hard to imagine this would result in any FAA action because winds changed on you after you received a authorized brief.
 
Not sure if you edited this or I missed it the first time, but violating personal minimums is a slippery slope. Just say no. :nono:
:yeahthat:

What's the point of personal minimums if you don't plan to adhere to them?

Seems a strong consensus on this thread. :eek: I had to go back and check I was on PoA, LOL. :D
 
:yeahthat:



Seems a strong consensus on this thread. :eek: I

Seems like a strong consensus of what should be done. I always wonder what people actually would do in the same situation.

They're often not the same.
 
If the tricky part is that you are essentially lost comms, plenty of ways to deal with that. Get on Guard and try to relay to a plane in the flight levels, phone at the airport with fuel, a tower, FSS frequency on a VOR. In your scenario, you can get on the ground before you are to the reporting point.
 
On a long XC you continue to observe your fuel status and based on your IFR planned speeds it looks like you’re not going to make your planned fuel stop- the winds have significantly changed.
You can break off now, land and get fuel or you can slow to max range speed and your quick mental math says you can make the planned fuel stop, which will be after dark, but well before the FBO closes. At max range you can make the airport with just about 45-60min fuel remaining, somewhere between legal and your personal minimum.

To complicate the problem, you’re about 30 minutes before your next ATC mandatory reporting point and the radio is silent due to 250nm of testing in that area of the country during your flight. You have to make a decision.

What do you do?
To further complicate things...

you have to make stool

What do you do..

What do you do???
 
On a long XC you continue to observe your fuel status and based on your IFR planned speeds it looks like you’re not going to make your planned fuel stop- the winds have significantly changed.
You can break off now, land and get fuel or you can slow to max range speed and your quick mental math says you can make the planned fuel stop, which will be after dark, but well before the FBO closes. At max range you can make the airport with just about 45-60min fuel remaining, somewhere between legal and your personal minimum.

To complicate the problem, you’re about 30 minutes before your next ATC mandatory reporting point and the radio is silent due to 250nm of testing in that area of the country during your flight. You have to make a decision.

What do you do?

I am landing and getting fuel.

1. If the winds are significantly different than forecast, none of the rest of your forecast is credible.
2. You are headed into night, the night VFR fuel minimums are 45 minutes. 60 minutes violate my night VFR minimums.
3. You didn’t state what the WX is, but you could be violating minimum IFR fuel regulations.
4. Even if you can not communicate with ATC, you should be able to communicate with FSS via a remote outlet or VOR or contact higher traffic on 121.5 and have them relay your diversion to FSS.
 
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:yeahthat:

What's the point of personal minimums if you don't plan to adhere to them?

Seems a strong consensus on this thread. :eek: I had to go back and check I was on PoA, LOL. :D
Just like IFR mins, I use personal mins for flight planning. Once in the air, on a rare occasion, those mins may get eaten into a bit due to actual wx. That doesn’t mean I land somewhere else if I can land at my planned destination with 30 mins of fuel in daylight VMC.

With that said, I never/rarely decide to extend my range by slowing down. I run full throttle, LOP, above 6k practically all the time. Any situation that would cause me to back it off for max range is prelude to an emergency. Just not the way I flight plan or fly.


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Just like IFR mins, I use personal mins for flight planning. Once in the air, on a rare occasion, those mins may get eaten into a bit due to actual wx. That doesn’t mean I land somewhere else if I can land at my planned destination with 30 mins of fuel in daylight VMC.
Then you have "guidelines," not "minimums." There's a difference. My next comment is only intended to illustrate the difference.

"Just like IFR mins." Do you mean "once in the air on rare occasions," you go below published approach minimums a bit "due to actual wx"?

If your fuel management is only a guideline, that's ok. I have both personal guidelines and personal minimums. But only one is capable of being busted in a non-emergency.

To answer @dbahn's question, yes I have landed short of my destination when I became concerned about exceeding my personal fuel minimums.
 
Having been on scene for two crashes as the result of trying to stretch rather than make an unplanned fuel stop, I will always take the conservative choice.

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When I took my instrument checkride, the DPE asked me what the difference was between VFR and IFR fuel reserves outside the numbers. I told him the numbers anyway and didn't know what he was getting at so I looked up the pertinent regulations. What he wanted to point out was the fact that VFR fuel rules pretty much were for planning purposes in that you had to have your planned reserve "at takeoff" and nothing precluded you using those reserves in flight provided it didn't result in an off field landing or an issue that called into question your decision to continue flying. Truly, in a sense, the VFR fuel reserve was a planning consideration. So you could arrive at your destination under VFR with exactly the required reserve, and continue to shoot a few patterns before landing with less than thirty minutes of fuel. IFR fuel reserve requirements are worded slightly differently. In order to "operate under IFR" you must have the required reserve fuel, not just at takeoff, but at all times under IFR. The implication is that the IFR fuel reserve is there for an emergency. Like any emergency, you might have some "splainin" to do as to why you landed with less than the reserve should the FAA have a concern.
 
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