Starliner launch in ten min
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denverpilot
Tied Down
That was fun. Looks like we have finally built our own Soyuz. Heh.
Somehow it’s just not as impressive to watch as STS-1 was, but nothing will ever compare again to that.
Wonder if they’ll lower that 3.5 G a bit more for the manned flights. That’s a little rough but not totally out of the ordinary.
Also interesting that Atlas 5 has to drag the burnt out SRBs along for 48 seconds so they won’t land where they’re not wanted.
Best part was they did the launch in darkness but the vehicle climbed high enough to be sun illuminated, and that’s always gorgeous for photo work. Perfect way to see the plume grow wider and longer in the lower density air at the edge of space.
See how the docking goes tomorrow. Most of the active stuff tonight is tried and true and fairly ancient. That we’re still using Centaur upper stages amazes me.
The number of controllers is a tad wild. A call out to a dedicated umbilical controller? Heh. A lot of people in that room. Seems to roughly double every program. Or more.
Somehow it’s just not as impressive to watch as STS-1 was, but nothing will ever compare again to that.
Wonder if they’ll lower that 3.5 G a bit more for the manned flights. That’s a little rough but not totally out of the ordinary.
Also interesting that Atlas 5 has to drag the burnt out SRBs along for 48 seconds so they won’t land where they’re not wanted.
Best part was they did the launch in darkness but the vehicle climbed high enough to be sun illuminated, and that’s always gorgeous for photo work. Perfect way to see the plume grow wider and longer in the lower density air at the edge of space.
See how the docking goes tomorrow. Most of the active stuff tonight is tried and true and fairly ancient. That we’re still using Centaur upper stages amazes me.
The number of controllers is a tad wild. A call out to a dedicated umbilical controller? Heh. A lot of people in that room. Seems to roughly double every program. Or more.
EppyGA
Touchdown! Greaser!
Seemed they were having a slight issue as they signed off the broadcast.
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Velocity173
I remember watching that live as a kid. Was a big deal back then. Hail Columbia is a pretty good documentary. John Young was the man!
Let'sgoflying!
Touchdown! Greaser!
Why does the rocket flare seem to 'pulse' ie many times per second, instead of being an even, smooth exit?
catmandu
Pattern Altitude
"anomoly"
"Lots of things went right. Its why we test."
Didn't blow up, and we still get a return with an airbag landing. Not bad.
fasteddie
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Welcome to the world of government-funded programs.
There is a reason Boeing got twice the $$ as SpaceX. Twice the jobs.
Datadriver
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It appears this test failed as the spacecraft went into the wrong orbit and will be unable to dock with the ISS
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Mantis Toboggan, MD
Based on your experience with orbital launches how many should there be and in what positions?
The rendezvous and docking will not be completed but there are plenty of tests that will be conducted, not the least of which is reentry and (hopefully) recovery.
Nauga,
prescient post facto
wanttaja
En-Route
Brand-new program. You want all the experts present in the event of a problem; sometimes, there IS something you can do, or they'll recognize problems in the telemetry faster.
And... well, it's kind of a reward for people who worked hard to make the program schedule. It's human nature to want to see their work succeed.
I was the mission director on the deployment and activation of a new small satellite. We had ten people in the operations room, with an annex set up across the hall that had another 25 monitoring the same data. Once the system was checked out an operational, normal staffing was two.
When you've got a major program on the line, the extra money it costs to put the brains in seats for the launch is trivial.
Ron Wanttaja
Tantalum
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San_Diego_Pilot
space flight is awe inspiring.. these rocket launches will ALWAYS be bad ass to me..
Also, since Soyuz was mentioned up thread, I know "Russia=bad".. but I think there's something to be said for the success of the Soyuz program.. that same overall platform has been in use since the 1960s/70s.. I mean, that's Apollo vintage. We think of Apollo as ancient history, but Soyuz dates back roughly to that time frame.. and I believe, in its history, has only killed four people (officially), last fatality occurring almost 5 decades ago
Also, as an aside.. talk about a crazy story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_23
Also, since Soyuz was mentioned up thread, I know "Russia=bad".. but I think there's something to be said for the success of the Soyuz program.. that same overall platform has been in use since the 1960s/70s.. I mean, that's Apollo vintage. We think of Apollo as ancient history, but Soyuz dates back roughly to that time frame.. and I believe, in its history, has only killed four people (officially), last fatality occurring almost 5 decades ago
Also, as an aside.. talk about a crazy story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_23
Tantalum
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San_Diego_Pilot
When Vandeburg does launches out here in California they can be seen for a loong distance, down here in San Diego, if the lighting is right.. looks pretty incredible and other worldly. I have a few great photos actually from the desert capturing a launch
Have to have them all to help sell the myth that man has been in so-called “outer-space.”
Maybe someday we'll get to the point where it's just:
"Keys are in the ignition. Be sure to log your hours when you get a chance."
Ghery
Touchdown! Greaser!
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I remember seeing a launch out of Vandenburg from the Bay Area years ago. Once they get up a ways they are visible from a long way.
Dave Theisen
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I missed it, but you could see it here in Atlanta today.
Pilawt
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Here's a VBG launch two years ago next Sunday, as seen from our downtown Phoenix AZ balcony. It's 434 nm from here to VBG.
After this photo was taken, the rocket appeared to slowly descend toward the south until it disappeared behind a nearby mountain range. Actually it was just following the curvature of the earth. (Sorry, Kyrie!)
wanttaja
En-Route
There are two kinds of events associated with a countdown: Rocket launches, and the detonation of explosives. It is not a coincidence.Maybe someday we'll get to the point where it's just:
"Keys are in the ignition. Be sure to log your hours when you get a chance."
"There's a fine line between a bomb and a rocket...and the finer the line, the better the rocket."
Ron Wanttaja
denverpilot
Tied Down
Maybe someday we'll get to the point where it's just:
"Keys are in the ignition. Be sure to log your hours when you get a chance."
Not with Atlas/Centaur we won’t. LOL.
As much as I know Musk and SpaceX are just a play for sweet sweet NRO launch billions, they actually have a built in monetary incentive to shoot for that.
As far as me knowing how many people need to be in the room goes, I know the telecom behind that room and that it’ll work just fine if they were sitting in cubicles down the hall. The room is too large to walk across it to confer with anybody else privately and it all has to be recorded anyway. And it’s all triple redundant.
So the big room is mostly for show — nostalgia. Might be slightly easier to cable up with fiber, is about it.
Got a kick out of the occasional mismatched Dell monitor in the otherwise perfect line of those, though. Someone didn’t order spares and forgot Dell reuses part numbers. Or... too many blew up.
denverpilot
Tied Down
To strap onto those laughable ejection seats in Columbia took balls bigger than I could walk with. LOL.
Ghery
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Decades ago when I worked on MX we referred to first launch as first crater. Blew our minds when it flew on the first try.
I never worried about lighting the first stage. They were shooting that thing out of a plastic tube, and it was made of plastic. We EMC types figured that the spark as it cleared the muzzle of the tube would guarantee ignition.
wanttaja
En-Route
Not so much nostalgia as tradition...and it's a tradition that works.
Certainly, you could put each person in a private cubicle and communicate electronically. But the big mission bay is what the industry is used to; what each person in it has been trained up to do. As humans, we do our best communication face-to-face... it's not so much to "confer with anybody else privately," it's to be able get issues across clearly. The specialist can call up the appropriate data, can point at it on his or her screen, and talk directly to the launch/mission director.
Most of us have probably been on "remote presentation" situations where one presenter insists on using his finger to point out stuff on the screen....which, of course, the other people don't see.
I don't doubt people can be trained to do this remotely. But it *would* take training, and cost money, and I don't think one can point to any definitive advantage. It's done this way because it works.
About 15 years ago, I visited what was then America's newest launch facility... the Kodiak Launch Center, on Kodiak Island. And yes, they had the traditional big room....
http://www.wanttaja.com/kodiak.jpg
I believe Spacex uses the big mission control layout, as well.
Ron Wanttaja
wanttaja
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Proof I was at the Kodiak Launch Center. This picture was taken in the parking lot of the mission control building.....
Ron Wanttaja
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Mantis Toboggan, MD
We've tried 'dispersed monitoring' on the occasional program as well...and even with the training it never seems to work as well as being collocated. Not to mention security and 'crowd control'. Our teams tend to be much smaller, but there is definitely a time and place (often singular ) for large teams, not the least of which is first flight of a new configuration.
Nauga,
intro-atmospheric
) for large teams, not the least of which is first flight of a new configuration.Nauga,
intro-atmospheric
denverpilot
Tied Down
Totally get that’s the idea. But that room is way too big for that to work. You simply can’t see a face that far away. They overdid it. As have the Koreans.... I noticed that during their moon crash recently.
SpaceX does do the big room but there’s a lot less people in it and sightlines look to my eye to be significantly shorter.
Just something I noticed having built call centers where people used to say the same thing, that operators of large complex investor relations calls done by hand (team of operators and a lead operator) needed to be able to see each other. We had to go to round “pods” of furniture for that to work properly.
Plus old guy. And I saw a bunch of white hairs in that room with glasses. Do I wear the glasses that let me read my data the best, or see the flight director’s face 50 yards away? LOL.
It literally can’t work at that size. Not correctly anyway. It’ll “kinda” work and trick people into thinking that’s the reasoning but any ergonomics pro would laugh heartily. Traditions and mental state it works for. Actually seeing someone? Nah.
As someone else said, the goal eventually is to automate away the operators. We did in the telecom world. Saved a lot of money on those high touch staged conference calls. Like you said, all it took was training to communicate differently.
Also not quite sure it takes that much training. Everyone in that room knows how to handle their audio controls to talk to their back room which we’ve already stipulated is still there. Even listen to multiple audio sources.
It’s tradition but definitely also for show to a large extent. Hard to get excited about cameras overlooking a cube farm. Doesn’t evoke the emotions they want from the audience. Lighting also usually sucks. Ha. Most people who are data nerds usually want to look at screens in the dark.
(Which is another huge fail in many “open layout” workplaces. 50% want the lights on, 50% the lights off... hahaha. Have watched that decade long train wreck of people fighting passive aggressively over the lights before or just removing bulbs. Ha. More than once. All “open workspace” really means is “we were too cheap to buy drywall and we don’t trust you with a closable door... I have such bad metrics to measure you, I would rather watch you pretending to work...” LOL!)
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Space Shuttle went to 3 Gs. I don't think you'll ever see much less than that on a traditional vertical launch.
For every person you see in the "front room" there is also a "back room" with at least two more people in it supporting the one in the front room. It's a much bigger team than you see, and none of it is "single pilot". Well, maybe CAPCOM/FD but they've got everyone in all the rooms supporting them.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Have known that for pushing 30 years or so, which I why I said it wasn’t out of the norm. Was more interested if they were limit testing this time at the top limit or if that is the target with humans aboard. (Or if the target is say, 3...)
Have known that even longer. LOL.
Further down the thread you probably see why I think the rooms are too big now. Pretty sure the “tradition” and idea that it’s to see faces is correct, but it’s been stretched to the point where that’s becoming an actual ergonomic problem.
In this case even with all of them doing the big room thing, Boeing’s is sigificantly larger and more crowded looking. As is the Korean room but Boeing’s still looked like they crammed in more people.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
denverpilot
Tied Down
Savage. But I like it. Lol.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
hey, I just callz 'em like I seez 'em!
we went to the moon 50 f***ing years ago and we can't even put a rocket into the proper orbit today!
W...T...f***ing...F?
Boeing engineers must proofread pie charts for AOPA Pilot on the side!
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Lachlan
En-Route
That's a load of bull...
Ghery
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That's a bit more recent than my one visit to Kodiak. I think it was in 1977 (78?) when I went there to do some jobs for the Coast Guard while working for the Navy. Brand new receiver site for the comm sta and a couple cutters. The coasties were very hospitable and loved the place.
wanttaja
En-Route
Heh, heh...going way back into my past, now.
In the mid-80s, I was on Boeing's proposal team for the NASA contract for the Space Station. One of the things they decided to do was to develop a simulator to show how the Station components would be assembled on-orbit using the Remote Manipulator System (RMS) on the Space Shuttle ("Arm"). Due to my experience in simulation, they tapped me as the study lead.
We used the Flight Simulation Center in Renton. The simulator folks built a Shuttle, a "strongback" section of the space station, and a tubular module to be assembled to it. They used one of the standard flight simulation computers. They built a custom control box to simulate the Arm controls. I could sit in a chair with a simulated view out the aft windows of the shuttle and a small screen simulating the camera views available, and pluck the new module out of the shuttle bay, turn it around, and plug it into the existing strongback.
We also used the simulation for demonstration to visiting VIPs. We'd take over one of the 737 cabs in the simulation center, put the VIPs in the pilot and co-pilot seats....and fly them up to the space station. Pretty impressive graphics, for that period.
Ron Wanttaja
RudyP
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If you didn’t have everyone in the big room, the mission controller couldn’t really say “lock the doors” if things go wrong...
birdus
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There. Fixed it for ya.
I used to build comm satellites for GEO. The control rooms were far less impressive even though the deployments were just as if not more involved. At launch base for the Proton the rooms were like shoe boxes buried under the pad. Back at HQ the room was bigger but not like a massive mission control center. They deploy the solar arrays, antennas, raise orbit from transfer to GEO and all the associated telemetry and health testing. For the rocket, what is necessary except some large detonate buttons(Russians never let us in there)?!
I had the privilege of seeing many Khazakstan night launches so close the shockwave rocked us to the core. They do safety differently there, infact I've ran for life and limb on one of those pads during a "fuel venting event". They gave us an O2 tank and mask and said "good luck". but those launches are a top 5 experience for me. The energy, the beauty of watching the rocket all the way to orbit on a clear night. I'll never see that again.
I had the privilege of seeing many Khazakstan night launches so close the shockwave rocked us to the core. They do safety differently there, infact I've ran for life and limb on one of those pads during a "fuel venting event". They gave us an O2 tank and mask and said "good luck". but those launches are a top 5 experience for me. The energy, the beauty of watching the rocket all the way to orbit on a clear night. I'll never see that again.
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