Night IFR, a whole new ballgame

NoHeat said:
IMC, Night, Mountains. Pick one.
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When I flew my long commercial qualifying cross country flight, I experienced all of those at once, plus ICING!

I broke out over Lake Tahoe and glided to Lovelock, NV with a very fuzzy airplane covered with rime ice...
 
flyingbrit said:
OP, have you flown much night VFR? If not, that might be a way to get used to what your panel looks like at night without the added stress/workload of IMC/IFR.
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Yes, I actually have quite a bit / more than most. I have about 1000 hours total, with 300 at night.
 
lancie00 said:
Thanks for the pirep. I recently did several night landings for commercial qualifications and I was surprised myself at how hard it is to see the instruments and buttons in the dark. I was glad my dad came along to help. I had never thought about the red "washing" out some colors but that makes sense. I guess I'll start looking for a green light now.
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Any monochrome lighting affects colors. Astronomers use red lights, and it helps, but I'm not so sure it's of much use in the cockpit.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Astronomers use red lights, and it helps
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The days are looong gone, when astronomers used their eyes to look through a telescope.

Telescopes are now robotic, and have been for a long time, with digital cameras instead of an eyepiece. Obviously astronomers don't need to visit space-based telescopes, and even for ground-based telescopes, there's no need for their physical presence. Astronomers can stay warm back in their office, looking at their computer monitor, and enjoying their standard office lighting.
 
jordane93 said:
IMO, It’s a lot easier shooting approaches in IMC at night than day. Night IFR does bring some unique challenges as well.
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Agreed. I think the trickiest time for night IFR is when you've just broken out into visual conditions and you see the runway lights in front of you. If you're still more than a mile back, you're at very serious risk of falling victim to the black-hole effect when you switch to visual references on a low, 3-degree approach path, so make a conscious effort to stay on the glideslope and/or pay close attention to the VASI/PAPI. If neither of those is available, don't descend below at 1,000 ft AGL (assuming no higher terrain) until you're within a mile of the runway, then drop flaps, cut power, and do a steep (5- or 6-degree) approach.
 
David Megginson said:
Agreed. I think the trickiest time for night IFR is when you've just broken out into visual conditions and you see the runway lights in front of you. If you're still more than a mile back, you're at very serious risk of falling victim to the black-hole effect when you switch to visual references on a low, 3-degree approach path, so make a conscious effort to stay on the glideslope and/or pay close attention to the VASI/PAPI. If neither of those is available, don't descend below at 1,000 ft AGL (assuming no higher terrain) until you're within a mile of the runway, then drop flaps, cut power, and do a steep (5- or 6-degree) approach.
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I will add that it is easier to see the glow of the approach and runway lights at night if you leave your landing lights off. Turn them on when you need them for landing.
 
NoHeat said:
The days are looong gone, when astronomers used their eyes to look through a telescope.

Telescopes are now robotic, and have been for a long time, with digital cameras instead of an eyepiece. Obviously astronomers don't need to visit space-based telescopes, and even for ground-based telescopes, there's no need for their physical presence. Astronomers can stay warm back in their office, looking at their computer monitor, and enjoying their standard office lighting.
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About 10 or 15 years ago they moved control of the Hawaii giant telescopes from an uncomfortable 14,300' msl to 4,000' msl in the little town of Wiamea on the Big Island.
 
Clip4 said:
In some countries you can’t fly day VFR without a flight plan.
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Mozambique is like that. You need a flight plan for every flight - VFR/IFR/day/night - everything.

IK04 said:
When I flew my long commercial qualifying cross country flight, I experienced all of those at once, plus ICING!

I broke out over Lake Tahoe and glided to Lovelock, NV with a very fuzzy airplane covered with rime ice...
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What were you in that can glide 100 miles?

I went to Lovelock on my first PPL night XC. It's dark out there!
 
I prefer a blue light for night flying.

I enjoy nighttime IFR flying. It is easier to see the runway lights at night when (hopefully) breaking out.
 
Weekend Warrior said:
With the red lighting, the only thing visible with my attitude indicator are the thin white horizontal degree lines and the "little airplane"; everything else on the AI vanishes!
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Probably a long shot...but is there any chance you have some color blindness? Probably not since I presume you have a valid medical cert and that's one of the things that's checked. Just thought I'd ask anyway...
 
Turbo-Arrow-Driver said:
Probably a long shot...but is there any chance you have some color blindness? Probably not since I presume you have a valid medical cert and that's one of the things that's checked. Just thought I'd ask anyway...
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Yes! I have tritanopia (blues vs greens are hardest for me). I have failed the color blindness test at every third-class medical I’ve ever had for 25 years. 3 or 4 different doctors all have just shrugged and moved on when I’ve failed (on the test I always miss the same two “diagrams” and the doctors never acted like it was a big deal). Hmmm I’m thinking now it is a big deal!
 
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Clip4 said:
Cayman Islands and Great Britain for any flight in Class B,C, or D.
VFR flight plan or itinerary in Canada
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Canada doesn't require a VFR flight plan under 12,500.

steingar said:
My aircraft is so dark I don't even like to fly VFR at night. I do need to get myself a headlamp.
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I thought Mooneys had good night panels?

flyingbrit said:
OP, have you flown much night VFR? If not, that might be a way to get used to what your panel looks like at night without the added stress/workload of IMC/IFR.
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Yeah, this is true. I flew a lot of night VFR when I was getting my PPL and also when I was VFR only. Also, my instructor insisted on lots of IFR training at night, which tends to be much harder when maneuvering.

denverpilot said:
JFK Jr. went flying on a dark overcast night over unlit terrain...
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chemgeek said:
...which is food for thought about filing IFR at night just because...
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David Megginson said:
Instrument-rated pilots also go flying during the day in cloud where they can't see the ground. Mr Kennedy wasn't instrument-rated.
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He was in legal VFR, but those conditions simulated IMC. If he'd left his autopilot on, he'd have been fine. Sadly, the disorientation caused him to not trust his AP and there he went. That poor guy in the Lance who killed his family over BFL also had an AP with a usable heading mode that he could have used to get through. But yeah, being able to fly IFR is really nice when you are flying at night - even in VMC.
 
N1120A said:
Canada doesn't require a VFR flight plan under 12,500.



I thought Mooneys had good night panels?



Yeah, this is true. I flew a lot of night VFR when I was getting my PPL and also when I was VFR only. Also, my instructor insisted on lots of IFR training at night, which tends to be much harder when maneuvering.







He was in legal VFR, but those conditions simulated IMC. If he'd left his autopilot on, he'd have been fine. Sadly, the disorientation caused him to not trust his AP and there he went. That poor guy in the Lance who killed his family over BFL also had an AP with a usable heading mode that he could have used to get through. But yeah, being able to fly IFR is really nice when you are flying at night - even in VMC.
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https://lois-laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-96-433/page-89.html
2) No pilot-in-command shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight unless a VFR flight plan or a VFR flight itinerary has been filed, except where the flight is conducted within 25 nautical miles of the departure aerodrome.
 
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N1120A said:
Canada doesn't require a VFR flight plan under 12,500.
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Let me correct that. In Canada, any VFR flight beyond 25 nm, regardless of altitude, requires a flight plane or a "flight itinerary". A flight itinerary just means that a responsible person (a dispatcher, a flying buddy, a spouse) knows your route and when you're supposed to land, and will call SAR if you don't report in, so it's not much of a burden.

I think @Clip4 was thinking of something different with the 12,500 ft. In Canada, all class C/D/E airspace becomes class B above 12,500 ft, so you need an ATC clearance to enter it even if you're VFR. Like in the US, Victor Airways are class E down low, but once you're above 12,500 ft, you need clearance to fly along one or even just to fly across one VFR.
 
David Megginson said:
Let me correct that. In Canada, any VFR flight beyond 25 nm, regardless of altitude, requires a flight plane or a "flight itinerary". A flight itinerary just means that a responsible person (a dispatcher, a flying buddy, a spouse) knows your route and when you're supposed to land, and will call SAR if you don't report in, so it's not much of a burden.

I think @Clip4 Like in the US, Victor Airways are class E down low, but once you're above 12,500 ft, you need clearance to fly along one or even just to fly across one VFR.
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Do you know where that is in the FAR/AIM? I've never heard that one before. I'm a low hour pilot with about a 100 hours and I don't typically fly above 10,500 ft, but I don't recall ever reading or being told that.
 
AlphaMike said:
Do you know where that is in the FAR/AIM? I've never heard that one before. I'm a low hour pilot with about a 100 hours and I don't typically fly above 10,500 ft, but I don't recall ever reading or being told that.
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Sorry, my phrasing was unclear. Let me try again:

Like in the US, Canadian Victor Airways are class E down low, but in Canada, once you're above 12,500 ft, they change to class B, and you need clearance to fly along one or even just to fly across one VFR.
 
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sarangan said:
I questioned how anyone could make an emergency off field landing at night.
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If you are making an emergency off-field landing at night, wait until you are about 50' AGL to turn on your landing light.

If you don't like what you see, turn off your landing light...

:goofy:
 
midlifeflyer said:
interesting direction for the thread. My first solo IFR flight started in daylight and ended at night. Breaking out on the ILS with all those lights is one of my most vivid flying memories.
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My first approach to minimums was at night with @jesse on board. It’s permanently imprinted in my brain.
 
NoHeat said:
The days are looong gone, when astronomers used their eyes to look through a telescope.

Telescopes are now robotic, and have been for a long time, with digital cameras instead of an eyepiece. Obviously astronomers don't need to visit space-based telescopes, and even for ground-based telescopes, there's no need for their physical presence. Astronomers can stay warm back in their office, looking at their computer monitor, and enjoying their standard office lighting.
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Naw. The vast majority of astronomers are amateur, and look through eyepieces most of the time. Heck, in my office are a 10" Newtonian and a 7" Maksutov, just to remind me of what I should be doing instead of working. Yeah, I take pictures, but the real joy is looking at the 'live' sky. Go to a star party; you'll see only red lights, and you'll be wrested to the ground if you present a white light.
 
denverpilot said:
My first approach to minimums was at night with @jesse on board. It’s permanently imprinted in my brain.
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In my case, I did my training before I moved to Colorado. I generally trained after work and a lot of it was in winter. So it was dark, often in the clouds, and I was usually a bit tired. So I was pretty much used to night IFR and a nice normal non-training flight was simple.

BTW, this was no an approach to minimums. I broke out 350 above mins. I had two real missed approaches during my training. Amazing to go to 200' above a runway and see nothing but light grey!
 
Tantalum said:
Next time just close your eyes and use the force

View attachment 80698
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Please don't rely on "The Force." If you do, this could happen:

<<At 1:20 am EST (06:20 UTC), the aircraft took off from JFK's runway 22R. At 1:44, the flight reached its cruising altitude of 33,000 feet. At 1:48, captain El-Habashi left the cockpit and went to the lavatory. During that time, relief first officer Al-Batouti was alone in the cockpit. At 1:48:39, he began to exclaim, "I rely on God," and, at 1:49:45, disengaged the autopilot. The autopilot-disengagement warning was not heard on the CVR, indicating that the autopilot was disengaged manually, and, for the next 10 seconds, the aircraft remained in straight and level flight.>>

en.wikipedia.org

EgyptAir Flight 990 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Rely on regular training and proficiency.
 
CaptainDoug said:
Please don't rely on "The Force." If you do, this could happen:

<<At 1:20 am EST (06:20 UTC), the aircraft took off from JFK's runway 22R. At 1:44, the flight reached its cruising altitude of 33,000 feet. At 1:48, captain El-Habashi left the cockpit and went to the lavatory. During that time, relief first officer Al-Batouti was alone in the cockpit. At 1:48:39, he began to exclaim, "I rely on God," and, at 1:49:45, disengaged the autopilot. The autopilot-disengagement warning was not heard on the CVR, indicating that the autopilot was disengaged manually, and, for the next 10 seconds, the aircraft remained in straight and level flight.>>

en.wikipedia.org

EgyptAir Flight 990 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Rely on regular training and proficiency.
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I mean it was said jest, IE, a joke. But thanks captain obvious. Night vfr may as well be IMC which is why many jurisdictions treat it as such.

Stay safe out there
 
Yes, it was obviously a joke. But I was just trying to show that there
really are some people out there who think that they can rely on
'Heavenly saviors' instead of consistent training.

PS:

I'm just wondering if you'd like to give this a shot. If so, why do you
think that he went around? Luckily the wife was able to get the plane
on the ground without any significant injury.

I have my viewpoint, I'd just to hear some others. And my view relates
to my comments above about consistent training.


aviation-safety.net

Accident Piper PA-46-500TP Malibu Meridian N444RR,

On July 15, 2023, at 1515 eastern daylight time, a Piper PA-46-500TP airplane, N444RR, was substantially damaged when it was involved in an accident near Vineyard Haven, Massachusetts. Th...
aviation-safety.net
 
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Personally have extremely dim red overall lighting with EFIS HSI and AI. Since all radios are backlit and all switches are memorized, there's no real need to see much more of the interior of the aircraft in night IMC. Let the airplane fly - it knows how - you make minor corrections to make it go where you want.
 
AlphaMike said:
Do you know where that is in the FAR/AIM? I've never heard that one before. I'm a low hour pilot with about a 100 hours and I don't typically fly above 10,500 ft, but I don't recall ever reading or being told that.
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It's not in the FAR/AIM. He's talking about Canada, different rules.
 
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