Looking for Advice for Flying into Taos

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cmh027

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cmh027
I'm hoping to fly into Taos over New Years in our 182Q. I've never been out west with the 182, so looking for some tribal knowledge and pointers on the trek. I've done quite a bit of research on the route and mountain flying and plan to take the 182 up to 7000, etc. and get a good understanding of the performance at a higher DA. I also have done some research on proper leaning, but looking for more insight here as well (specifically on approach to landing and on engine start).

With regards to the route, planning a fuel stop in CVN and then to come up over SAF and tracking V83 up to KSKX. I plan on filing IFR at 11-13k (we will have O2), but will not make the trek from SAF to KSKX unless it is VFR.

On the way back, I plan to circle the field in the pattern to gain altitude before departing the area

What other advice do you have for a first timer to Taos? Particularly interested in WX information and other things I should take into consideration for my flight planning.
 
I fly down to Taos frequently from Denver. Never needed to get higher than 10.5 and based on the route - a bit further east and go around RTN-TAD area, 9.5.

TAFOY intersection, turn right (well, northeast) and you’re in line for SAF. V83 to Velarde (NAXUE) and into Taos at 9500, no problem. No official need for O2 but if you’re not used to living up here, it’s a good idea. I live up here and keep it handy.

Your biggest problem will be dealing with Canon AFB traffic.

CVN TAFOY SAF NAXUE SKX is not mountain flying to those of us living here, because you can do the entire route at 9500, not go thru any mountain passes and the land is fairly flat. As a rule, in the winter, we don’t head direct over mountains due to winds.

Fantastic place to ski, one of my favorites....bring cash and a really good credit card.

Personally, I like Taos better than anything in Colorado for skiing.
 
It might help if you let us know where you are coming from, do you think? The airport at Taos sits out in the flat area in the valley, not in the mountains. . Should not be a problem. As for going up to 7000 in the 182, that's good but its about 1800 ft below pattern alt at Taos.

By the way, if you are going skiing, not having any idea how your party skis or even where you are from, Taos is a lot of very advanced skiing, a lot of steep slopes with narrow runs and trees on the sides. It aint Breckenridge or Snowmass, not a lot of flat beginner type runs. It can be very cold also.
 
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Bill Greenwood said:
It might help if you let us know where you are coming from, do you think? The airport at Taos sits out in the flat area in the valley, not in the mountains. Its one runway, but if it was too much crosswind you can go into Santa Fe to the south. Should not be a problem.

By the way, if you are going skiing, not having any idea how your party skis or even where you are from, Taos is a lot of very advanced skiing, a lot of steep slopes with narrow runs and trees on the sides. It aint Breckenridge or Snowmass, not a lot of flat beginner type runs. It can be very cold also.
Click to expand...

Headed from TX with a fuel stop in Clovis then the route is SAF V63 SKX. Not planning on skiing in Taos, just visiting town before headed to a family cabin up in Tres Ritos
 
murphey said:
I fly down to Taos frequently from Denver. Never needed to get higher than 10.5 and based on the route - a bit further east and go around RTN-TAD area, 9.5.

TAFOY intersection, turn right (well, northeast) and you’re in line for SAF. V83 to Velarde (NAXUE) and into Taos at 9500, no problem. No official need for O2 but if you’re not used to living up here, it’s a good idea. I live up here and keep it handy.

Your biggest problem will be dealing with Canon AFB traffic.

CVN TAFOY SAF NAXUE SKX is not mountain flying to those of us living here, because you can do the entire route at 9500, not go thru any mountain passes and the land is fairly flat. As a rule, in the winter, we don’t head direct over mountains due to winds.

Fantastic place to ski, one of my favorites....bring cash and a really good credit card.

Personally, I like Taos better than anything in Colorado for skiing.
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Great! Thanks. The CVN TAFOY SAF NAXUE is the exact route I'm planning. Can you provide more information about the rule of thumb with the direct over the mountains? I don't plan on doing this, but curious and also interested in learning more where I can get information about the winds.

Anything in particular about the Canon AFB traffic?
 
FSS , 1800 992 7433 has wind reports estimates at 9000, 12000 and 18000. Kind of a good rule is upper limit of smooth flying might be 20 or 25 knots at 12,000. Also get pireps to see what pilots or actually finding in the area. Santa Fe is a nice place to visit, good airport, also. If weather is bad there is airline service from Austin and Dallas into Taos. I would stay a little south coming into Santa Fe area from Texas and not go right over the highest mountains just east of there and Taos. And you only need O 2 if you want to breathe.
 
As for poodle man "liking Taos better than anywhere in Colorado for skiing", that is of course his right and opinion. I have not skied in Taos in a long time,but a survey of the public in Ski magazine just ranked Aspen as number 1 ski area in U S., with other Colorado areas close behind it.
Keep the 182 loaded well below gross and it should be ok, should be able to go to 14,000 if needed.
 
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cmh027 said:
Great! Thanks. The CVN TAFOY SAF NAXUE is the exact route I'm planning. Can you provide more information about the rule of thumb with the direct over the mountains? I don't plan on doing this, but curious and also interested in learning more where I can get information about the winds.

Anything in particular about the Canon AFB traffic?
Click to expand...
Direct over the mountains? In the winter, we don't. As least not the spam cans. High winds. Ice. For the 15-20 min savings, not worth it.
 
Bill Greenwood said:
As for poodle man "liking Taos better than anywhere in Colorado for skiing", that is of course his right and opinion. I have not skied in Taos in a long time,but a survey of the public in Ski magazine just ranked Aspen as number 1 ski area in U S., with other Colorado areas close behind it.
Keep the 182 loaded well below gross and it should be ok, should be able to go to 14,000 if needed.
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Most Colorado locals avoid Aspen (sorry, Bill, I know you live there). Too expensive, too difficult to get there, etc. When it's 75 min from my house to Loveland for an afternoon fix, or 2 hours to Vail or Mary Jane, Aspen's just not worth it for a couple days.

As for "poodle man"....I would like to offer my lineage....mostly poodle with a healthy dose of Muppet and Godzilla. Ever see the inside of a sleeper sofa? Nothing but 2x4s with a spring mechanism....(*evil laugh*). I've also been known to pull drapery rods out of the sheet rock.
 
Bill Greenwood said:
As for poodle man "liking Taos better than anywhere in Colorado for skiing", that is of course his right and opinion. I have not skied in Taos in a long time,but a survey of the public in Ski magazine just ranked Aspen as number 1 ski area in U S., with other Colorado areas close behind it.
Keep the 182 loaded well below gross and it should be ok, should be able to go to 14,000 if needed.
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Rule of thumb is 10% below gross.

I put Ski in the same category as Flying....mostly ads and far too many recycled articles.
 
Take a bribe for the corrupt immigration officials.

Oh hang on, you didn't say Laos...
 
Bill Greenwood said:
FSS , 1800 992 7433 has wind reports estimates at 9000, 12000 and 18000. Kind of a good rule is upper limit of smooth flying might be 20 or 25 knots at 12,000. Also get pireps to see what pilots or actually finding in the area. Santa Fe is a nice place to visit, good airport, also. If weather is bad there is airline service from Austin and Dallas into Taos. I would stay a little south coming into Santa Fe area from Texas and not go right over the highest mountains just east of there and Taos. And you only need O 2 if you want to breathe.
Click to expand...

So looking at winds aloft right now they are in the 20-30kt range at 12k. You noted that is the upper limit of smooth flying, so is that normal for this time of year or do they in fact die down?
 
cmh027 said:
So looking at winds aloft right now they are in the 20-30kt range at 12k. You noted that is the upper limit of smooth flying, so is that normal for this time of year or do they in fact die down?
Click to expand...

Don't "depend" on a wind forecast, but "plan" on one. I flew to Telluride (KTEX) last week and winds were supposed to be calm at the runway and 10 knots at the ridges ... arrived to 35G45 at the ridges and winds 15G19 40 degrees off runway heading on landing. Pretty bumpy for about 10-15 minutes near the 14's, but smoothed as I approached Telluride. In other words, wind forecasts out west here aren't always real accurate ... have a true low wind alternate planned and the fuel to get there.
 
danhagan said:
Don't "depend" on a wind forecast, but "plan" on one. I flew to Telluride (KTEX) last week and winds were supposed to be calm at the runway and 10 knots at the ridges ... arrived to 35G45 at the ridges and winds 15G19 40 degrees off runway heading on landing. Pretty bumpy for about 10-15 minutes near the 14's, but smoothed as I approached Telluride. In other words, wind forecasts out west here aren't always real accurate ... have a true low wind alternate planned and the fuel to get there.
Click to expand...

Makes sense. But with regards to information for making the go/no go (based on winds at least), FSS is the best source?
 
cmh027 said:
Makes sense. But with regards to information for making the go/no go (based on winds at least), FSS is the best source?
Click to expand...

If you ASK for NM and GET a NM adviser, then maybe ...

Am not sure in that area, but hunt to look for your OWN wind advisory info. also. Example: if I'm flying EAST I always enter "KGDP" as if it is an airport ... it is not ... it provides identical info LIKE an airport as to the conditions at Guadalupe Peak here in west Texas. Webcams for ski areas might be helpful. There *HAS* to be identical weather info up in that area ... the KGDP I found by accident years ago, wasn't listed anywhere you'd expect it.
 
cmh027 said:
I'm hoping to fly into Taos over New Years in our 182Q. I've never been out west with the 182, so looking for some tribal knowledge and pointers on the trek. I've done quite a bit of research on the route and mountain flying and plan to take the 182 up to 7000, etc. and get a good understanding of the performance at a higher DA. I also have done some research on proper leaning, but looking for more insight here as well (specifically on approach to landing and on engine start).

With regards to the route, planning a fuel stop in CVN and then to come up over SAF and tracking V83 up to KSKX. I plan on filing IFR at 11-13k (we will have O2), but will not make the trek from SAF to KSKX unless it is VFR.

On the way back, I plan to circle the field in the pattern to gain altitude before departing the area

What other advice do you have for a first timer to Taos? Particularly interested in WX information and other things I should take into consideration for my flight planning.
Click to expand...

Leaning: at run-up (1700-1800rpm), lean until the RPM drops, then enrich 4 half turns.
Your route to fly to KSAF, then up to Taos is fine. You dont have to go above 9500 at all.
The airport is far away from the mountains, so there is no danger of downdrafts.
No other advice (I live in the area and have owned a 182 for 10 years). Just enjoy the views.
 
No experience with Mtn flying. But some experience on 182 at altitude, leaning, O2 and cold wx:

Do you have a single cylinder EGT or engine monitor? Density Altitude leaning is easier with those when the prop is governed. I just had our A&P install a new vernier mixture knob (nice!) and he put in a simple EGT until we get a engine monitor. Could probably do both for under $600 or even a bit less.

Your 182 will easily climb to 14,000 in those colder temps. My highest so far was over 15,000 in late summer with ground temps in the 70's (forget the air temp). Takes forever from 990msl. Expect climb rates of about 400fpm at 10,000 in winter and 100fpm by 15000. Once you get to about 11,500 or so you're gonna swear you CFI is sitting next to you and making you do slow flight...but with no flaps and no carb heat LOL! So if you are taking off heavy and having to do climbing turns at high DA to clear terrain you might want to practice up at higher altitudes back home. Those turns can be right on the edge of stalling. Maybe just practice everything about 1000...2000ft higher than you expect.

If you are going to use O2 you should try out your system at least once before the actual trip.

One more thing. You're going from flying in Texas to flying where its actually cold. I would think you'd want a cold wx kit. Or something to keep the oil from staying too cold, especially up high. I just duct tape different amounts of surface area of the oil cooler. So its easy to land and take it off again when you get to warmer air. I guess there is a cold wx kit that covers the air filter as well but have never seen it.

As long as you have a heated hangar right before you leave you won't need a tannis/reiff(sp). 182's don't start very "nice" once below +20F and and you'll want it plugged in or in a heated hangar once you get below that. If you do have a engine/cylinder heater bring about 75ft of extension cable and nose plugs. I also have a cheapo ceramic heater (like $15 and about 1lb). I place it up front and run it with the doors closed for about 30 minutes and the inside will get to about +50F inside and warm up the avionics and seats. When its time to startup I unplug it and set it outside for about 1 minute to cool it off and then throw it in back.
 
Remember...it’s winter. Density Altitude is not a crisis. Leaning, yes. Density altitude, not.
 
In 40 years of flying in the mountains I have never put duct tape over my oil coolers and certainly not over an air filter. I think you really should have an O 2 bottle, Sportys sells them. As for as altitude to fly, if you are at 9500 that is the wrong one for going west or northwest. You can probably arrange a morning preheat when you are leaving or maybe even an overnight hangar.
Im sure you can find a weather source with more panache than FSS, but FSS is what I use. Why don't you phone them and see for yourself.

P S the Mexican food is of course great in the area and a little different than Texmex, it has that Indian influence, not so much Mexican. The bar b q is not as good.
 
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Bill Greenwood said:
In 40 years of flying in the mountains I have never put duct tape over my oil coolers and certainly not over an air filter. I think you really should have an O 2 bottle, Sportys sells them. As for as altitude to fly, if you are at 9500 that is the wrong one for going west or northwest. You can probably arrange a morning preheat when you are leaving or maybe even an overnight hangar.
Im sure you can find a weather source with more panache than FSS, but FSS is what I use. Why don't you phone them and see for yourself.
Click to expand...
I bow to your Mtn flying experience :)

Just curious, are your comments regarding the cold wx stuff also specific to the 182?

I find on ours (182P) once the surface air temps are below +10F it is really hard to keep the oil warm enough..even with the cowl flaps all buttoned up and as leaned out as you can get it in that cold. I've never seen the actual cold wx kit but my understanding is that it somehow covers up the air filter to some degree.

Or maybe the actual winter air temps in Taos are much more friendly than here in the upper midwest.

Heated hangars are great but at busy places there are 2 things to watch out for. Since most places are first come first served a later arrival may mean no space planey. And holy crap can they be expensive! I figured maybe $60night but they can easily go well over $100/night in some of the busier places. Nothing like pre-flighting in jeans and t-shirt when its -5F outside though.
 
I cant imagine why any cold kit would cover up the air filter, but I don't have specific knowledge of any kit.
Once I and my date drove my Porsche up from Austin to go skiing at Taos,very long time ago. It was ok, but then a cold front came through, it was bitter. One morning the wind chill was minus 52 degrees F at mountain top level. Nobody was going outside much less up the mountain. Then one guy showed up bought a ticket and insisted on going up. The ski patrol hated him. It was romantic in a way, being in a resort hotel until all the plumbing froze even indoors and thus the toilets would not flush. Cars would not start until they were towed into town,think it was $200 to thaw in a heated garage. By spraying raw ether into the intake and towing my car I got is started, but for 20 min it would not run on all cylinders. We were able to finally drive out.
 
This is taken from backcountry.org:

What are you describing as the "Winter kit"? The Cessna winter kit for these airplanes includes a block off plate for the induction with a circular hole in the center, about three to four inches in diameter, and block off plates that cover both upper cowl air inlets, each of which has a rectangular hole in it. The one on the right (oil cooler) side has a sort of ramp to direct some air to the oil cooler from that rectangular hole.

I found that with those front covers in place, anything above about +10 or so the engine CHTs ran waaaay too high, and as a result I had to stay low in the inversion.....duh. And, once airborne with those on, you had to watch CHT very carefully at all times, even in cold temps. Finally, these block off plates effectively reduce cabin heated air flow to near nothing. I never ran those upper block off plates again, and I would NEVER run those unless I had a reliable six probe CHT gauge. If you go to northern Alaska, you will almost never see Cessnas with the winter fronts installed. The induction block off plates, yes, the upper block off plates no. And, most operators just cover half or all the oil cooler with duct tape. Common practice.

On the other hand, any time temps get below about freezing temps, I WOULD install the induction block off plate. This plate is designed to prevent "overboosting" the engine at max power, since the engine is capable of more than rated power at very low density altitudes (dense air). That plate restricts the flow of air through the air filter, and at max power, the engine is demanding more air than can be pulled through that small circular opening. This draws a vacuum in the induction, which opens the alternate air door, which is spring loaded. That door then permits warmer air from within the lower cowling to feed into the engine, effectively warming the induction air. Since in winter there's LESS chance of particulate in the air, the risk of unfiltered induction air is minimal.

MTV
 
So it looks like the 182 winterization kit actually plugs both upper cowls and the air inlet and then has smaller holes in each. The comment about making more than 100% power down low and cold seems the reason for limiting the air inlet.

I'm sticking with duct tape for now. But it would be nice to partially block off the other cowl opening since it's so large and probably super cools that front cylinder.
 
Sinistar said:
I bow to your Mtn flying experience :)

Just curious, are your comments regarding the cold wx stuff also specific to the 182?

I find on ours (182P) once the surface air temps are below +10F it is really hard to keep the oil warm enough..even with the cowl flaps all buttoned up and as leaned out as you can get it in that cold. I've never seen the actual cold wx kit but my understanding is that it somehow covers up the air filter to some degree.

Or maybe the actual winter air temps in Taos are much more friendly than here in the upper midwest.

Heated hangars are great but at busy places there are 2 things to watch out for. Since most places are first come first served a later arrival may mean no space planey. And holy crap can they be expensive! I figured maybe $60night but they can easily go well over $100/night in some of the busier places. Nothing like pre-flighting in jeans and t-shirt when its -5F outside though.
Click to expand...
I don't think the "winterization kit" is for the air filter, but for the oil filter. On the Pipers, there's a specific winterization kit which is an oil cooler cover for use when the ambient temps are 50F or below. Some people cover part of the oil cooler hole with aluminum tape (such as used in HVAC) , others (like me) fabricated a cover of scrap aluminum, using the one of many templates from various Piper owners. Each of the Piper models has a specific design. I'd check into the POH for the 182 and the Cessna Owner's group(s) for opinions/templates.

I just did a quick google and found this on the Cessna Flyer Assoc:

"Every Cessna 182 parts manual shows illustrations of what is known as "winterization equipment." Referring to your airframe manual will give you some ideas."

https://cessnaflyer.org/forum/cessna-182/311-why-is-oil-temperature-low.html
 
cmh027 said:
I'm hoping to fly into Taos over New Years in our 182Q. I've never been out west with the 182, so looking for some tribal knowledge and pointers on the trek. I've done quite a bit of research on the route and mountain flying and plan to take the 182 up to 7000, etc. and get a good understanding of the performance at a higher DA. I also have done some research on proper leaning, but looking for more insight here as well (specifically on approach to landing and on engine start).

With regards to the route, planning a fuel stop in CVN and then to come up over SAF and tracking V83 up to KSKX. I plan on filing IFR at 11-13k (we will have O2), but will not make the trek from SAF to KSKX unless it is VFR.

On the way back, I plan to circle the field in the pattern to gain altitude before departing the area

What other advice do you have for a first timer to Taos? Particularly interested in WX information and other things I should take into consideration for my flight planning.
Click to expand...

I would dress warm because it’s cold at 12k in winter and the heat in your 182 is not going to put out the heat you are used to. And off course survival gear.
 
I landed at Taos in an airplane that develops 56 h.p. at sea level. It's the easiest "mountain" airport ever. {The picture was taken before they built the cross-wind runway.}

20140629-taos-15.jpg

20140629-taos-16.jpg

Coming up from Clovis, there will be no need to cross any ridges. Just watch out for icing. Also, there's a super annoying radio tower a couple of miles north of the Okey Wingeh that is very difficult to see. Look at the sectional chart.
 
murphey said:
I don't think the "winterization kit" is for the air filter, but for the oil filter. On the Pipers, there's a specific winterization kit which is an oil cooler cover for use when the ambient temps are 50F or below. Some people cover part of the oil cooler hole with aluminum tape (such as used in HVAC) , others (like me) fabricated a cover of scrap aluminum, using the one of many templates from various Piper owners. Each of the Piper models has a specific design. I'd check into the POH for the 182 and the Cessna Owner's group(s) for opinions/templates.

I just did a quick google and found this on the Cessna Flyer Assoc:

"Every Cessna 182 parts manual shows illustrations of what is known as "winterization equipment." Referring to your airframe manual will give you some ideas."

https://cessnaflyer.org/forum/cessna-182/311-why-is-oil-temperature-low.html
Click to expand...
Just confirmed that the older Cessna 182P, Q winterization kit does include covers for the engine oil cooler (left), right side opening and over the air filter. Here is a shot from the 1974..1976 parts manual. This holes seem awfully small. But it does match what the backcountry poster said that quoted in my earlier post.

Screenshot_20191126-224016_Drive.jpg
 
Clip4 said:
I would dress warm because it’s cold at 12k in winter and the heat in your 182 is not going to put out the heat you are used to. And off course survival gear.
Click to expand...
our heater works pretty good. At -10f ground temp and flying at 6500msl I just wear a light sweater. On aDecember flight to Rapid City we were cruising at 8500msl just wearing long sleeve shirts and the heater and defroster were partially closed because it's too hot. When we landed it was just going below zero. I think passengers in the back seat of the older 182's will be colder as the floor vents up front dont push much back there.

But I'd have cold wx survival stuff with no matter what.
 
Well, you can learn something new every week, even now I'd sure be reluctant to block off my air intake with a plate. How is that different from getting into icing and having the air filter ice over, not a good thing.
 
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