Hi, I live under VR 176 in the Gila Wilderness in New Mexico that allows flights as low as 100 feet. We were told by a neighboring Air Force Base that there was an "avoidance zone" over our community and neighboring national park. However, we had another Air Force pilot tell us that on the charts, he saw no avoidance zones. I can't get back in touch with this pilot and I am trying to figure out WHERE can this information be found? If there is an Avoidance zone with a higher AGL flight restriction, where can I located this information? You help is appreciated. I'm new to this!
Question about military Visual Routes
- Thread starter pat mason
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Yep, the notation means you can be run down by some pimple-faced second looey who has been given an $70MM aircraft and isn't paying attention to where the hell he is going.
Clip4
Final Approach
I do not believe you will find this information in a civilian publication or outside the specific units using VR176. Besides, other than broken China you house is not a problem.
Yes
We were given a map of the avoidance areas by Holloman Air Force base, the base that manages and schedules the VR..but it appears that they are not sharing that information with other bases and pilots..because many different planes come through this way,, and even different branches of the military. Another air force pilot looked at some chart or another and said,,"nope, you aren't in an avoidance area"...but I neglected to find out where he was looking. Your point is that he was looking at a specific armed forces chart? But shouldn't anyone who flies in the VR be aware if there are specific regs for airspace altitudes?
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Page 229. I don’t see anything depicting your area as an avoidance area. It does say to contact OSS for avoidance areas though. Perhaps you should call them.
https://www.daip.jcs.mil/pdf/ap1b.pdf
https://www.daip.jcs.mil/pdf/ap1b.pdf
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I'll check this out..Looks like you need an account...and a military education, but I'll give it a shot..thank you
Thanks for this, I tried to click on this link, but there was some google scramble warning....I'll try again later. I appreciate the responses...much quicker help than calling the Air Force!
Witmo
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Tim
One of the notes says anyone using the route has to contact the scheduling entity, 49 OSS, and receive a briefing on specific areas to avoid.
hindsight2020
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Right. So here's the thing. Localisms abound wrt the addition of avoidance areas within MTRs. It's usually the purview of the scheduling authority for the low-level, which is almost always a nearby DOD branch installation, though it could be a far away agency as well.
At any rate, the description of the route structure is all open source DOD FLIP AP/1B. The centerline of the corridors are charted in civil sectional charts et al. The standing legacy noise abatement or avoidance points of interest are included in the verbal description. But sometimes new localisms (game ranches, agreements with some local yokel complaining, some telecomm work sprouting antennas et al) pop up that require the local unit to make annotations in their planning products, which wouldn't be immediately available in the AP/1B product until the next revision date. As such, guest users would have to be briefed when the called in for scheduling of the route.
Why do you want to know? Are you getting ready to lob a noise complaint against DOD operators?
At any rate, the description of the route structure is all open source DOD FLIP AP/1B. The centerline of the corridors are charted in civil sectional charts et al. The standing legacy noise abatement or avoidance points of interest are included in the verbal description. But sometimes new localisms (game ranches, agreements with some local yokel complaining, some telecomm work sprouting antennas et al) pop up that require the local unit to make annotations in their planning products, which wouldn't be immediately available in the AP/1B product until the next revision date. As such, guest users would have to be briefed when the called in for scheduling of the route.
Why do you want to know? Are you getting ready to lob a noise complaint against DOD operators?
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Velocity173
Yeah, that why I told him to give the OSS a call. Perhaps they’ll tell him if his area is an avoidance area.
That's good info..I'm sure that's not happening...I was told by the Air Force pilot that its automated now. A pilot or squad that wants to fly in the route-usually fighter jets, does this through an automated scheduling system and that the flight manager at the scheduling base doesn't even see the request necessarily. I'll try again to get into this document. Looks like I'm boxed out for now.
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Call them.
ha! I've already lodged complaints. We live in a very tight canyon-valley with horses, cattle, tourists, and the like, and because we are part of this VR route, (and a very attractive flying target), we get F-16's flying way to low over our tiny village. The scheduling base told us we are in this avoidance zone, but since we are not getting "avoided", I was trying to figure out what was going on. Once I was told that the charts didn't say anything about avoidance, I decided to follow up and clarify. We'd just like the scheduling authority to let pilots know not to buzz us...but it sounds like we're going to have to get this "published" somewhere to make it stick.
I'm going to try and call again. It won't be my first .Thanks
thanks!
hindsight2020
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"stand up and tells us about yourself.........." 
I appreciate everyone's help. Unfortunately, I can't get into the DoD Flip system. Its telling me its restricted to folks with DOD credentials.
Clip4
Final Approach
It might be easier to move. Avoidance does not mean prohibited. You are wanting military pilots on the hot seat. The fact the MTR is there means they are going to use it.
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ktup-flyer
En-Route
F-16's doing low passes over your neighborhood? I fail to see the issue...
Let'sgoflying!
Touchdown! Greaser!
Little problem with interpretation here.
‘Avoidance’ merely means they will ‘avoid’ dropping live ordnance on you!
‘Avoidance’ merely means they will ‘avoid’ dropping live ordnance on you!
Right, we get that. The avoidance notation on our maps says 1500 feet...All of us pilots follow regs...in my book, same goes for military pilots..
Despite the sarcasm..I appreciate the folks who gave accurate advice, and quoted the documents I would need to get my question's answered.
ktup-flyer
En-Route
Yea, right
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They tend to bump up the altitude to at least 1,500 ft AGL with enough noise complaints. Did the same on VR-1040 back in the 90s. We pulled the tapes for getting noise complaints for aircraft at 500 ft. They added a minimum 1,500 ft in the remarks after that.
Clip4
Final Approach
So as a civilian pilot you believe an avoid notation on a chart or in the Chart Supplement means not complying violates a regulation? You need to go back to ground school.
You might want to look at national refuges and National security areas on the sectional. Then look at notations for airports in the chart supplement. All include avoid instructions. You are only requested to avoid the area, it is not regulatory. I see no difference for the military pilot and seriously doubt there is a military regulation requiring the pilots to avoid your hamlet.
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I see your point. Here's what happened. I was at a gathering and spoke to a high ranking member of the Air Force Training and Education Command and that's what he told me. He said if there's an avoidance notation within an MOA, or an MTR, then the pilots have to comply. But, clearly they don't always comply-so you may be right.
Clip4
Final Approach
Unless that person was at least a Brigadier General, there weren’t high ranking. LT Colonels and Colonels are a dime a dozen.
Tarheelpilot
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Good luck.
I don’t understand why you are complaining. Especially being a pilot. To each their own I guess.
just an observation. Not an invitation for you to explain why you are complaining. Please don’t mistake this for me actually caring about your motivations.
I don’t understand why you are complaining. Especially being a pilot. To each their own I guess.
just an observation. Not an invitation for you to explain why you are complaining. Please don’t mistake this for me actually caring about your motivations.
RingLaserGyroSandwich
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Kind of rude to tell someone you don’t understand why they are complaining then pressure them not to respond with an explanation. To each their own, I guess.
Tarheelpilot
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yep. i was being rude.
Edit: It was very much an intentional act to be rude. I was filtering my response heavily to avoid a PM from the MC.
Cap'n Jack
Final Approach
Which town is this? I'd go there to watch the F-16s. I'd go hiking to the top of the valley to watch the F-16s fly through the valley.
I'm not sure why horses and cattle have to do with anything- people have been claiming that noisy machines would affect horses, cattle, and other animals since trains started running back in the early 1800's; there have been no measurable effects. Cape Canaveral has rocket launches much louder than any F-16, AND a protected area where failed launches can land. The protected area (Merritt Island) is one of the most pristine and diverse wildlife refuges in the country! So the cattle/horse thing is really a non sequitur.
I suggest one of the following:
- Work with the local tourism board to let people know about this great tourist attraction. Call the people with whom you've been talking with to get a schedule of flights and post it on-line. People will stay at hotels/motels/B&B to watch this, and buy local food. This could be the next "Star Wars Canyon", except your town has the infrastructure to actually support the people who go out there to see it. Other than some unique desert scenery, there is nothing in Star Wars canyon except the planes practicing. A couple of judicious hotel and restaurant purchases prior to launching the marketing campaign could make you wealthy. Watching fighters and horseback riding? What's not to like?
- This seems to bother you, so feel free to move elsewhere. This sounds harsh, but the training area has almost certainly existed before you moved there. Our military needs the practice, and a simulator doesn't cut it because deep down, you know a mistake in a simulator is just going to show a message saying "Game over. Play again?"
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DaleB
Final Approach
How often do they fly over? If it's one or two flights every few days, that's one thing. If it's several times a day, low altitude at full tilt, that's a different story -- I don't think even I would be in love with that.
I personally would love to have fast movers overhead once in a while. I grew up under the approach for Offutt AFB in the 70s, and seeing everything from F4s to Vulcans overhead was pretty damn cool. Now it's all just Boeings painted gray.
I personally would love to have fast movers overhead once in a while. I grew up under the approach for Offutt AFB in the 70s, and seeing everything from F4s to Vulcans overhead was pretty damn cool. Now it's all just Boeings painted gray.
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If it’s listed in the Special Operating Procedures, then they must comply. In this case it just says to contact the 49th OSS for avoidance areas. Now, whether or not it’s a violation because the avoidance area is not specifically listed on the SOP is debatable. Doesn’t matter what we think anyway. All depends on what the wording in the course rules brief that the 49th gives to pilots.
Thanks for this Velocity 173. Its helpful.
flyingfrog
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Call the OSS and speak with them kindly. The ones who call with a screw loose rarely make any progress. I hope they can help you. If they can’t, they might at least explain why that particular part of the route can’t be changed.
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We had a guy call our base (Ft Rucker) once and complain about helicopter noise just off our corridor. Said that he did have a shot gun and would use it on aircraft if necessary. Right after that, we put a no fly area over his house. I actually thought it would be good actions on contact (small arms) training for our students.
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