Marvel Mystery Oil

[cessna182b]

My list of valid uses for WD-40 include rust inhibitor, adhesive remover, cleaning solvent, and aluminum machining lube. I cringe every time I see someone using it where a general light oil would be much more appropriate. With all the residue it leaves behind when it dries on metal, I can't imagine why anyone would try it as a fuel additive.

The WD in the name stands for Water Displacement - which is what it was intended to do (and definitely not a lubricant). The 40 refers to the 39 previous attempts of the folks who formulated it. They got what
they wanted on the 40th try.

Dave

 

[tspear]

The WD in the name stands for Water Displacement - which is what it was intended to do (and definitely not a lubricant). The 40 refers to the 39 previous attempts of the folks who formulated it. They got what
they wanted on the 40th try.

Dave

That is a cool story. Any references to back it up? (We like to debate this kind of useless stuff in my family).

Tim

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

That is a cool story. Any references to back it up? (We like to debate this kind of useless stuff in my family).

Tim

https://www.wd40.com/history/

What that doesn't mention is the reason that it was necessary to displace the water. The Atlas used "balloon" tanks made of very thin stainless steel that required the pressure from the fuel to make them rigid enough to not collapse when the rocket was raised up for a launch. So for every practice launch, it was loaded up with LOX and, essentially, Kerosene, then after the test the tanks would be drained. But, there was a lot of condensation from the LOX and concerns over corrosion. Hence the desire to displace the water from the condensation.

 

[tspear]

https://www.wd40.com/history/

What that doesn't mention is the reason that it was necessary to displace the water. The Atlas used "balloon" tanks made of very thin stainless steel that required the pressure from the fuel to make them rigid enough to not collapse when the rocket was raised up for a launch. So for every practice launch, it was loaded up with LOX and, essentially, Kerosene, then after the test the tanks would be drained. But, there was a lot of condensation from the LOX and concerns over corrosion. Hence the desire to displace the water from the condensation.

Very cool. I think I will start our random trivia stuff with this one over Christmas. Much better story than I have found so far.

Tim

 

[StevieTimes]

BOOM!

 

[Bill Greenwood]

Well, at least he made a test, such as it was, and not just offered an opinion from out of the blue. Nor I don't know many airplanes running with a one cylinder side valve lawn mower engine, but so be it. As for as I can see, the Marvel oil left the engine slightly cleaner in the combustion chamber, really coulnt see that much difference.
But as I note, MM is to provide extra upper end lubrication, not primarily to remove carbon?

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Not arguing for or against MMO, but this quote is related to car engines. ZDDP was added to automotive motor oils as a way to replace some of the qualities that lead provided. During the period when lead came out of auto fuel, but much of the installed base of engines were designed for higher lead, ZDDP was critical. With 100ll, at least in theory, TCP helps eliminate lead fouling. I don't believe aviation oils have ZDDP in them?

There's a Porsche board, similar to this one. The longest thread on that board is the one arguing about which oil to use in your 911, which is a flat tappet, air cooled engine. Current automotive engines are not as dependent ZDDP and most mainline automotive oils have a lot less of it.

I realize the post above is over a year old.
However, the link below purports that ZDDP isn't in automotive oils for most cars due to it damaging catalytic converters. It was an anti-wear additive for oil.
https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/...c-dialkyl-dithiophosphates.html?cid=home_motw

 

[FORANE]

ZDDP is in Valvoline VR1.

 

[weirdjim]

That is a cool story. Any references to back it up? (We like to debate this kind of useless stuff in my family).

Tim

Their plant is across the street from my college. They sent a techie to speak to us a LOOOOOOng time ago (1966) and the story is true.

 

[weirdjim]

https://www.wd40.com/history/

What that doesn't mention is the reason that it was necessary to displace the water. The Atlas used "balloon" tanks made of very thin stainless steel that required the pressure from the fuel to make them rigid enough to not collapse when the rocket was raised up for a launch. So for every practice launch, it was loaded up with LOX and, essentially, Kerosene, then after the test the tanks would be drained. But, there was a lot of condensation from the LOX and concerns over corrosion. Hence the desire to displace the water from the condensation.

And the Assless was built about five miles west of my college. They have a park and playing fields for the employees. A junk Assless was put in the park on display and one day there was a sign on it --

"My wife just eloped with MY divorce attorney. Anybody got their zip code?"

Jim

 

[Cap'n Jack]

ZDDP is in Valvoline VR1.

Would the cars using it have catalytic converters? It's marketed as a racing oil. (https://www.valvoline.com/our-products/motor-oil/vr1-racing-oil )
ZDDP is still used in other engine oils.
Edited my post for clarification.

 

[FORANE]

Would the cars using it have catalytic converters?

Can't say, of course, but can say my Lycoming doesn't have a catalytic converter.

 

[Hang 4]

I ran VR1 in my 911. Can't say if it affected the Cat or not, can't remember for sure if I even had one after I rebuilt the engine. The Porsche folks really wanted ZDDP and a lot of it.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

ZDDP is a high pressure lube additive. It’s main purpose in oils was to prevent cam-to-flat lifter wear. Less critical in roller valvetrain of today, and EPA wanted it gone due to fouling of automotive cat conv. Has nothing to do with what tetraethyl lead in fuels was/is for (antiknock and valve seat wear).

Race engines typically have higher pressure valve springs and high-lift/high-duration cams, a recipe for lifter and cam lobe failure.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

ZDDP is a high pressure lube additive. It’s main purpose in oils was to prevent cam-to-flat lifter wear. Less critical in roller valvetrain of today, and EPA wanted it gone due to fouling of automotive cat conv. Has nothing to do with what tetraethyl lead in fuels was/is for (antiknock and valve seat wear).

Race engines typically have higher pressure valve springs and high-lift/high-duration cams, a recipe for lifter and cam lobe failure.

The link I supplied says ZDDP is mostly used in off-road vehicles and in heavy equipment. Do those still have flat tappets, or does ZDDP also reduce wear elsehwere in engines?

Also, what do you mean by "high pressure"?

Not disputing anything you wrote, just curious.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

The link I supplied says ZDDP is mostly used in off-road vehicles and in heavy equipment. Do those still have flat tappets, or does ZDDP also reduce wear elsehwere in engines?

Also, what do you mean by "high pressure"?

Not disputing anything you wrote, just curious.

I’m not familiar with heavy equipment engines, but know that there are diesel oils that contain a lot of ZDDP. Not sure if true now, but about 10 years ago, Shell Rotella contained a lot. I tried it in a junkyard big block spare engine in my drag car and promptly made gobs of metal in 3 runs. I blame it on my dumb-ax using diesel oil. Just cuz it was good for the valve train didn’t mean it would be fine for 6k rpm gasoline engine bottom end, lol.

ZDDP is used for areas in the engine where there is “high pressure” between parts - like a lifter being pushed against a cam lobe by a heavy duty valve spring with the cam going from base circle (closed) to its ramp up and opening the valve.

 

[Stewartb]

BOOM!

Look up MSDS info. Seafoam and MMO are essentially the same but Seafoam adds isopropyl alcohol to the mix. I've used both, both provide some benefit, but neither is magic. TBO remains the same with or without it.

 

[mondtster]

The link I supplied says ZDDP is mostly used in off-road vehicles and in heavy equipment. Do those still have flat tappets, or does ZDDP also reduce wear elsehwere in engines?

Also, what do you mean by "high pressure"?

Not disputing anything you wrote, just curious.

Many Diesel engines still have flat tappets, hence the tradition for those oils to continue to have higher levels of ZDDP in recent years. These engines and oils are changing as well however, since even the off road engines require after treatment that would be affected by the burning of oil/zinc.

As I posted earlier in this thread, there are still some late model on road engines that are not rollerized that run fine on current oils. Plus, we’ve never had zinc in the aircraft oil and most of those engines are flat tappet (although there are some problems) so I’m not convinced that the problem is the lack of zinc, at least in the context that many car guys assert. I suspect there are other problems contributing to the trouble that often gets overlooked.

 

[DaleB]

BOOM!

As in, “BOOM, a real life test demonstrating that neither one really does much of anything other than producing a lot of smoke”, or some other BOOM?

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I’m not familiar with heavy equipment engines, but know that there are diesel oils that contain a lot of ZDDP. Not sure if true now, but about 10 years ago, Shell Rotella contained a lot. I tried it in a junkyard big block spare engine in my drag car and promptly made gobs of metal in 3 runs. I blame it on my dumb-ax using diesel oil. Just cuz it was good for the valve train didn’t mean it would be fine for 6k rpm gasoline engine bottom end, lol.

ZDDP is used for areas in the engine where there is “high pressure” between parts - like a lifter being pushed against a cam lobe by a heavy duty valve spring with the cam going from base circle (closed) to its ramp up and opening the valve.

Thanks much!

Many Diesel engines still have flat tappets, hence the tradition for those oils to continue to have higher levels of ZDDP in recent years. These engines and oils are changing as well however, since even the off road engines require after treatment that would be affected by the burning of oil/zinc.

As I posted earlier in this thread, there are still some late model on road engines that are not rollerized that run fine on current oils. Plus, we’ve never had zinc in the aircraft oil and most of those engines are flat tappet (although there are some problems) so I’m not convinced that the problem is the lack of zinc, at least in the context that many car guys assert. I suspect there are other problems contributing to the trouble that often gets overlooked.

If the "after treatment" is a catalytic converter, the phosphorous poses a problem too.

 

[Art Rose]

This may sound like an odd question.. does anyone actually use this in their aircraft? I was talking with an owner of a '74 Beech C23 (180hp Lycoming) in Texas.. says he adds it to his fuel regularly and to oil at oil change every 50hrs.
I'm very hesitant if not skeptical.. Any thoughts on this?

MMO is nothing more than myth, snake oil, wives tales, and urban legend. It's a bunch of word of mouth marketing crap. Read and try to understand what the MSDS sheets tell you. If you had a clue, you'd know that you can clean carbon deposits off the top end of an engine with nothing more than a few shots of plain old water. And what idiot would knowingly dump this garbage in his gas tank?
"
One thing I haven't heard anyone say yet........ "It's not legal to use this crap in a certified aircraft engine." A lot of morons do, and they think this crap works as a lead mitigator. It does not. TCP (tom cat ****) yes, MMO, no.

You will never hear the MMO folks advertise what people seem to think this crap does for their engines. If they did, they'd be sued to infinity. Stop wasting your money and believing this crap.

 

[Huckster79]

ALL aircraft are "certified." Anything MMO does in the fuel, 2 cycle oil at 1:1000 does better.

I have heard of the 2 cycle oil as well, what’s the more detailed scoop on that? How many use it? Is 1:1000 the accepted ratio?

 

[DaleB]

@Art Rose ... Don't bottle it all up inside, dude. Let it out, tell us how you really feel.

 

[mondtster]

If the "after treatment" is a catalytic converter, the phosphorous poses a problem too.

I think the diesel OEMs are more worried about the DPF, but newer engines have a catalyst on them too (after the DPF).

Whatever the case, oil consumption and the effects of it are a big concern these days. The OEM I work for spends millions on testing to minimize consumption and also to determine the effects it has on the pollution controls.

To keep this topic related as well, we have MMO in the stockroom at work. Not sure why though, I’ve never seen it used in the engine test lab. Perhaps some of the other non-engine guys use it for something.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Perhaps some of the other non-engine guys use it for something.

Lubricating air tools.

 

[mondtster]

Lubricating air tools.

We have air tool lube for that.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

We have air tool lube for that.

Then it's a mystery!!!!!!!

 

[1RTK1]

Lubricating air tools.

That's what we used it for.

 

[Bell206]

One thing I haven't heard anyone say yet........ "It's not legal to use this crap in a certified aircraft engine."

Post 65. But there's nothing illegal about using it in an aircraft. Whether it works is entirely subjective to the user.

 

[Bell206]

Lubricating air tools.

FWIW: Marvel actually makes an air tool oil but they leave out the dye and the familiar sweet fragrance.

 

[Art Rose]

Post 109. MMO is not approved for use by Lycoming, Continental, or the FAA.

Please provide your source for your comment contrary to this statement.

 

[Bell206]

MMO is not approved for use by Lycoming, Continental, or the FAA.

Lycoming and Continental can't provide regulatory approvals. So those are merely recommendations which may void the OEM warranty. Nothing more. On the FAA side, it actually works in the opposite direction as the FAA holds the burden to show why MMO can't be used. So short of any FAA document prohibiting the use of MMO there is nothing to legally prevent its use in aircraft. Or do you have such a document?

Stand-alone fuel/oil additives like MMO, Camguard, AvBlend, etc. fall into a gray area regulatory-wise vs fuels or oils. There is no required FAA certification requirement for stand-alone additives. Now if an additive is incorporated in a "certified" oil or fuel product then yes the complete mix must meet some form of industry standard like the SAE or ASTM. So for example, the ever popular oil additive Camguard is not FAA approved either, yet it is used widely in the GA fleet with no regulatory issues. MMO enjoys that same basic acceptance, no documentation required. But if you'd like to read more on what it would take to get Camguard or MMO approved:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-24D_Chg_1.pdf

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Post 65. But there's nothing illegal about using it in an aircraft. Whether it works is entirely subjective to the user.

Lycoming SI 1014M recommends against it and notes it violates their warranty. So maybe nit illegal, but certainly not recommended. There was a crash when MMO was added to the fuel.


Tom

 

[DaleB]

There was a crash when MMO was added to the fuel.

I remember reading a preliminary report a while back that mentioned MMO. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I seem to recall there was a WHOLE LOT of MMO added to the fuel.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I seem to recall there was a WHOLE LOT of MMO added to the fuel.

If it's the accident report that I read, yes. There was a lot. I think gallon containers were involved. Enough to lower the octane rating and cause detonation.

If you are careful to not use too much, there is a good chance that MMO will not harm your engine. Many people run their engines for thousands of hours using MMO. But, we don't have a way to determine how much longer they would have run without the MMO.

 

[Domenick]

That is a cool story. Any references to back it up? (We like to debate this kind of useless stuff in my family).

Why is Pound Cake called "Pound Cake"?

 

[tspear]

Why is Pound Cake called "Pound Cake"?

No idea of the veracity. But Pound cake got its name from the four main ingredients requiring one pound each.

Tim

 

[flyingron]

Not just the "main ingredients," the only ingredients in a traditional one. Yep, of course what's a pound of eggs? While butter, flour, and sugar are sold by the pound, US cooks tend to not measure them out that way (a pound of flour is about 3 1/2 cups, a pound of butter is four sticks, a pound of eggs is around 9 or 10 large eggs, a pound sugar is about 2 1/4 cups). People tend to add other flavors (vanilla extract, lemon or orange zest, salt, etc... obviously not in the pound proportion).

The WD-40 story is what the manufacturer claims. Nobody really knows if it is true or not.

 

[Snowmass]

Years ago my 65 HP A-65 had a stuck valve on take off (density altitude 7000') and I squeaked by over some power lines. The A&P on the field said put Bardahl in the OIL and the valve freed and never stuck again in 300 hours. So "snakeoil" additives my actually have value. As to manufacturers saying "don't" I suspect this lawyer engineering not engineer engineering. After all what's in it for Lycoming to approve it?

 

[Cherokee Lover]

FWIW...started using MMO about a year ago I noticed some missing during cruise. Never had another miss (At all) as long as I had at least 4oz per 10 gal fuel.

2 weeks ago had to drain both tanks to overhaul my fuel selector valve...and filled both tanks back up without MMO.

Fast forward 1 week...had an instrument training flight and the thing started missing again. Tried leaning then enriching...no results.

Dumped 1/2 bottle into one full tank...and the other 1/2 into the other full tank (about 12oz total each tank). After about 20 minutes of flying the missing stopped...and hasn't been back since.

IDK...but I don't think I am imagining anything here. It seems to work.

I am an A & P and couldn't narrow down the cause of the missing. The intake valves were relatively clean upon inspection (Decided to re-pack the manifolds), the plugs had no lead deposits and were otherwise clean. The only other cause might have been an exhaust valve starting to stick?

Determination...runs fine with MMO but starts missing W/O the MMO? Let's start the discussion thread. Any other experience with MMO...pro or con?