Bad: Downwind departure at non-towered airport?

I've done plenty of downwind departures at towered and untoward airports. Done a few downwind arrivals too. I just don't do either if I think anyone else is in the pattern.
 
steingar said:
I've done plenty of downwind departures at towered and untoward airports. Done a few downwind arrivals too. I just don't do either if I think anyone else is in the pattern.
Click to expand...
Seems to be a good approach (pun intended!) ;)
 
If my course is behind me I just do either the straight out or 45, and once reaching pattern altitude begin my turn on course. Maybe I should wait for pattern +500? Who knows...
 
Terrain, noise abatement and engine out factors are considerations that may take precedence at many airports, including my current and last home base.
 
dmspilot said:
Lots don't "correctly" perform it, and fewer make them exactly 45°.
Click to expand...
... and that's the real issue. Take the "preferred" teardrop to a 45 when arriving from the opposite side. Works great if the airplane doing it does it far enough away to get to pattern altitude before heading back in on the 45, and the 152 in the pattern isn't doing 737 patterns. Change one if those parameters and you have a midair in the making.
 
RussR said:
To break it down and remove extraneous words:

If departing the traffic pattern:
1. continue straight out, or
2. make a 45 degree turn once past the departure end of the runway and after reaching pattern altitude.

Note it doesn't say "after reaching pattern altitude, proceed on course", or "when you're 5 miles away from the airport, proceed on course", or anything about when to actually turn on course.
Click to expand...
Since I remember when there was no CTAF, and pilots often didn't have or use radios, when the AIM called for a 90° left followed by an immediate 45° right turn after reaching pattern altitude, the reason for these turns was to indicate by your actions, similar to rocking your wings at the tower, that you were departing the pattern.
Oldpattern snippet.jpg
Later, they dropped the first 90°turn simply to create more space from traffic approaching the downwind leg. That's why there isn't a specific point where it's deemed safe to proceed on course — once you've "telegraphed" your intentions to the plane/s following you in the pattern your job is done. You're well clear of the airport unless it's a jetport with no tower.

Any CFI working with a student on power-off landings knows why following some dildo making a downwind departure is a pain in the neck, even with radios and CTAF. Can you be sure you have the dildo in sight and not somebody else? And what about climbing up off the downwind? If it's a bad idea to descend into one, isn't climbing through one even worse? Downwind traffic should be level and should get that way before entering, according to the AIM.

I've noted here a time or two about the diagram error DMS pointed out earlier. It's been that way for years. You'd think others would have pointed it out too and a correction would have been made, especially since midair collisions have occurred, exactly at the point #1 referenced above, between arriving aircraft and planes remaining in the pattern.
 
Last edited:
my thought, a reason it might be considered poor form by some is that in doing so you're clogging up the downwind...where other folks are trying to fit themselves into the stream.
Kinda seems plausible to me in a very crowded pattern....

also, as all those folks are converging on that downwind, they are trying to see and avoid other folks departing off the departure end...but aren't necessarily expecting folks to be leaving from where they are going on that downwind area....
 
Having been in a similar situation with a couple of other planes in the pattern, at an uncontrolled airport, I just announced that I would be making a right turn and flying downwind right, because that was the direction up the valley I wanted to go. Both others heard me, acknowledged, and thanked me for staying clear of the pattern since they were in a left pattern. An airport with a standard right hand pattern I go to occasionally, I would just again announce my intention for all those who have a radio, and turn left. For the planes without a radio, it would be simple and cheap for them to buy a handheld as well. A friend of mine does just that, he turns on his handheld about 15 miles away from the airport so he can listen to traffic, and he announces his intentions. When I fly with him, I am his radio guy.
 
Shuswap BC said:
Having been in a similar situation with a couple of other planes in the pattern, at an uncontrolled airport, I just announced that I would be making a right turn and flying downwind right, because that was the direction up the valley I wanted to go. Both others heard me, acknowledged, and thanked me for staying clear of the pattern since they were in a left pattern. An airport with a standard right hand pattern I go to occasionally, I would just again announce my intention for all those who have a radio, and turn left. For the planes without a radio, it would be simple and cheap for them to buy a handheld as well. A friend of mine does just that, he turns on his handheld about 15 miles away from the airport so he can listen to traffic, and he announces his intentions. When I fly with him, I am his radio guy.
Click to expand...

But this can also be done very easily without a radio. Watching someone making a right turn on departure from a left hand pattern field is a pretty good indication that he's going somewhere else . . . ;)

But if you're flying in Canada don't you have mandatory frequencies even at some airports without control towers?
 
dbahn said:
But this can also be done very easily without a radio. Watching someone making a right turn on departure from a left hand pattern field is a pretty good indication that he's going somewhere else . . . ;)

But if you're flying in Canada don't you have mandatory frequencies even at some airports without control towers?
Click to expand...

Or going up instead of down.
 
Communicate your intentions, keep your eyes peeled & head on a swivel, and fly on!
 
dmspilot said:
Or going up instead of down.
Click to expand...
The ones climbing up through the downwind could make some interesting dog fights with the ones descending into the downwind via the teardrop/ampersand entry embraced by AOPA. Or with the student pilot circling overhead on his first cross-country. Or the Biz jet at at 1500' AGL.
 
The FAA diagram may be incorrect but it's something many many pilots do follow without even thinking about the diagram. The reason they end up flying the incorrect ground track on enty is that they fly their 45 entry leg by pointing the aircraft at the center of the runway/airfield. They should be aiming at the far end of the runway because the entry point to the downwind is offset from the runway the distance of their base leg. I spend a lot of time near the airport towing gliders and observe a lot of airplanes entering the downwind nearer abeam the departure end rather than abeam the center of the runway.

I personally don't see how departing off the downwind is such a big deal to some.
 
dbahn said:
But this can also be done very easily without a radio. Watching someone making a right turn on departure from a left hand pattern field is a pretty good indication that he's going somewhere else . . . ;)

But if you're flying in Canada don't you have mandatory frequencies even at some airports without control towers?
Click to expand...
About 98% have what we call an advisory channel. Basically a channel us pilots can chat on about the winds, weather, runway obstructions, and our intentions with each other. I recently announced that I was going to "buzz" the runway to try and make the people who were using it as a drag racing strip that i was there and wanted to land. I heard a voice saying thanks, and he appreciated me clearing the runway since he would arrive in about 15 minutes to land as well. I can't count the number of times I have flown somewhere to find a bunch of people on the runway, or various wildlife. Buzzing the runway to hopefully scare the animals off, or make people aware is just a way of life for me as a pilot. The people who use it as a place to walk is of no concern because they hear the plane coming, but the people driving on it be it cars, motorcycles or whatever do not. Deer are not skittish like many other animals, so I have had to make a few passes, and usually the last one extremely low to get the deer to leave. Most other animals are gone on pass one at 200 feet.
 
dtuuri said:
The ones climbing up through the downwind could make some interesting dog fights with the ones descending into the downwind via the teardrop/ampersand entry embraced by AOPA. Or with the student pilot circling overhead on his first cross-country. Or the Biz jet at at 1500' AGL.
Click to expand...

Descending onto any leg of the landing pattern is stupid dangerous. If jets at your airfield have a published tpa 500 feet above the published tpa for light airplanes, then climbing above the light plane tpa while in the pattern is also dangerous. We have only one tpa at our airfield and I can't remember the last time a corporate jet flew a 45 entry to the box pattern; they invariably fly a straight in or enter via a base leg to final. I really suspect that the last thing a jet pilot cares to do is mix it up with a piper cub in the pattern--they want on the ground ASAP and out of the way of everyone and if I have to modify my approach to let them get on the ground the quickest, I'm happy to do it.
 
Yep. Going back to helicopters. We've had 100 years to figure this $417 out and we still can't figure out how to depart an airport.

Present position departure to wherever I want to go... :p:p
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top