File departure procedure?

[midlifeflyer]

Someone recently got all out of sorts trying to read back a clearance that involved a VOR radial.. it must have been a verbal SID. I wasn't paying very close attention as I was still on the ground getting the ATIS, but this poor guy was obviously struggling with part of the readback

There's a good one in YouTube video I use in training. It was an IFR flight from Winston Salem to Charlotte and involved intercepting an airway then intercepting another airway. I ask trainees to explain how they would do it.

 

[dtuuri]

You guys don't seem to understand that SIDs were an optional subscription. Not everybody had them in hand in the cockpit and therefore placed "No SID" in remarks so the controller could read it to them.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You guys don't seem to understand that SIDs were an optional subscription. Not everybody had them in hand in the cockpit and therefore placed "No SID" in remarks so the controller could read it to them.

Some, maybe even most of us understand but like most everything else, the usage of the phrase changed with time.

 

[aterpster]

Some, maybe even most of us understand but like most everything else, the usage of the phrase changed with time.

That was a "deal" AOPA made with the FAA when SIDs were implemented sometime in the 1960s. It was like a transaction for bridge property in NYC.

 

[jonvcaples]

SIDS make life easier for pilots and ATC. They can be a pain because ATC can assign one even though you have said No SIDS/STARS in comment section of flight plan. The pain is they read you the SID (but do not give its name) as part of your clearance so now you have to write it all down.

 

[Kritchlow]

I’m not sure how common or important SIDS are to light, slow GA aircraft. Perhaps they are, I just don’t know.
That said, in all my years of flying a jet out of airports that do have SIDS, I have never not gotten one.
Truly... what’s the big deal??

 

[midlifeflyer]

I’m not sure how common or important SIDS are to light, slow GA aircraft. Perhaps they are, I just don’t know.
That said, in all my years of flying a jet out of airports that do have SIDS, I have never not gotten one.
Truly... what’s the big deal??

Varies. SID assignment is standard at some airports, not so much at others. Denver area for example, you will typically get the DENVER or PLAINS SID. Fort Lauderdale Exec, their SID, at least when heading westbound. Raleigh-Durham, sometimes yes, sometimes no.

 

[frfly172]

File what you want, fly what ATC gives you, always ready for changes.

 

[jordane93]

I’m not sure how common or important SIDS are to light, slow GA aircraft. Perhaps they are, I just don’t know.
That said, in all my years of flying a jet out of airports that do have SIDS, I have never not gotten one.
Truly... what’s the big deal??

At my airport (FRG) you always get a SID. It’s just a heading off the runway. I agree. Not sure what the big deal is.

 

[Palmpilot]

I have heard the Loupe departure used quite a lot at SJC, but I haven't listened lately, so I don't know whether it is still current practice.

 

[flyingron]

I’m not sure how common or important SIDS are to light, slow GA aircraft. Perhaps they are, I just don’t know.
That said, in all my years of flying a jet out of airports that do have SIDS, I have never not gotten one.
Truly... what’s the big deal??

I've been given SIDS out of class B primaries (notably the CAPITAL WHATEVER departure out of IAD). Cuts down on the amount of stuff CD has to read and you have to write down on issuance.

 

[Mt10Flyer]

Problem out west is that the SID's often require performance that many piston planes don't have. For example Jimpa Two at Carson City (KCXP) requires a minimum climb rate of 550' per NM to 11400'. So assume you climb at 120 knots, that's 1100ft/min all the way up to 11400.' Most normally aspirated aircraft aren't capable of that. My P210N would be theoretically capable if I didn't monitor my CHT's, but since I do I know I can't maintain 1100ft/min. Therefore, can't legally accept Jimpa Two.

 

[denverpilot]

I have reviewed applicable DPs and STARs as part of my planning on the expectation that they will be assigned by name or by individual routing instructions, but haven't found a good reason to include one in my filing. If it's not busy at the time and ATC is okay with a more direct routing and climb to cruise altitude, I don't see a reason to interfere by asking for something more complex.

Hahaha the other way to work that is to hunt for the radar vector SID and file that!

Denver One, baybee! Hahahaha.

 

[jonvcaples]

Nate chu got it brah! Gotta love a heading and altitude or two then radar vectors don't get no simpler! By filing a SID or STAR you will not have to write it all out because, if you specify no SID/STAR, ATC may give you the route and altitudes that make one up but now you get to write it all down when you pick up your clearance.

BLSS (Be legal, smart, and safe)

 

[Jabe Luttrell]

You are required to fly the departure procedure prior to entering controlled airspace, basically to avoid attempted flight into cumulogranitus. SIDs on the other hand are ATC procedures meant to organize aircraft flow into airports that are in very busy airspace. I live in the Florida Keys. If I want to fly to Ft. Lauderdale, I WILL get a SID and a STAR. If I say no SID/STAR, I will get one either by name or content. Then only way around it is to go VFR then I'll get a lots of vectors and delaying circling when I enter the Charlie or Bravo Airspaces. You got your IFR ticket so use the system.

 

[Palmpilot]

You are required to fly the departure procedure prior to entering controlled airspace, basically to avoid attempted flight into cumulogranitus....

That depends on what flight rules you're operating under. 14 CFR 91.175(f) contains requirements for departure procedures, but its scope is limited by its opening sentence:

"(f) Civil airport takeoff minimums. This paragraph applies to persons operating an aircraft under part 121, 125, 129, or 135 of this chapter."
​

Note the absence of Part 91 in that list.

 

[Jabe Luttrell]

That depends on what flight rules you're operating under. 14 CFR 91.175(f) contains requirements for departure procedures, but its scope is limited by its opening sentence:

"(f) Civil airport takeoff minimums. This paragraph applies to persons operating an aircraft under part 121, 125, 129, or 135 of this chapter."
​

Note the absence of Part 91 in that list.

Yes the FAR omits Part 91. My reference to required is that the FAA went to the lengths to define the departure procedure that will keep us pilots alive. Physics requires us to use it. There are many part 91 pilots that bite the terra firma within a minute of departure. One, in fact, within the last week at my airport. Ten seconds from liftoff to crash. Departure procedures define climb gradient, direction, etc. Following one would have saved a plane load of people at my airport.

 

[mwagg737]

Yes the FAR omits Part 91. My reference to required is that the FAA went to the lengths to define the departure procedure that will keep us pilots alive. Physics requires us to use it. There are many part 91 pilots that bite the terra firma within a minute of departure. One, in fact, within the last week at my airport. Ten seconds from liftoff to crash. Departure procedures define climb gradient, direction, etc. Following one would have saved a plane load of people at my airport.

This^^^

We left Berlin, NH IFR a few weeks ago. Max gross, mountainous, 300/1 with moderate rain.
Know your DPs, they will save you life at some point!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Palmpilot]

Yes the FAR omits Part 91. My reference to required is that the FAA went to the lengths to define the departure procedure that will keep us pilots alive. Physics requires us to use it. There are many part 91 pilots that bite the terra firma within a minute of departure. One, in fact, within the last week at my airport. Ten seconds from liftoff to crash. Departure procedures define climb gradient, direction, etc. Following one would have saved a plane load of people at my airport.

When a published departure procedure exists, flying it is obviously best if the aircraft has the capability. If not, the fact that people botch roll-your-own departures does not mean that it's not possible to do it safely with careful planning.

 

[Jabe Luttrell]

If one is botching a roll-your-own DP it's very likely there was no careful planning.

 

[Palmpilot]

If one is botching a roll-your-own DP it's very likely there was no careful planning.

Exactly.

 

[luvflyin]

You are required to fly the departure procedure prior to entering controlled airspace, basically to avoid attempted flight into cumulogranitus. SIDs on the other hand are ATC procedures meant to organize aircraft flow into airports that are in very busy airspace. I live in the Florida Keys. If I want to fly to Ft. Lauderdale, I WILL get a SID and a STAR. If I say no SID/STAR, I will get one either by name or content. Then only way around it is to go VFR then I'll get a lots of vectors and delaying circling when I enter the Charlie or Bravo Airspaces. You got your IFR ticket so use the system.

The only time you are required to fly a Published Departure Procedure in FAR 91 is if ATC assigns it. The floor of Controlled Airspace has nothing to do with it. There is no such thing as a Published Departure Procedure that does not continue into Controlled Airspace. There are not any where the floor of Controlled Airspace is higher than 700 AGL. I think. Anybody ever seen otherwise?

 

[denverpilot]

If one is botching a roll-your-own DP it's very likely there was no careful planning.

People botch the real ones, too.

 

[coma24]

That's great. "Cessna 123 cleared as filed" but now you have to remember that the SID you filed was excluded from that

No, if you file a SID and the cleared route does not include the SID, then it will be shown as a route ammendment and they'll read you either the whole route, or at least up until the point where is DOES match your filed route.

So, if you filed ABCDE1.XYZ ABC DEF GHI, and the cleared route is just XYZ ABC DEF GHI, then the shortest version of the route portion of the initial IFR clnc will be "via XYZ, then as filed."

 

[N1120A]

I file departures if they make sense. They simplify filing and clearances.

 

[coma24]

Yes the FAR omits Part 91. My reference to required is that the FAA went to the lengths to define the departure procedure that will keep us pilots alive. Physics requires us to use it. There are many part 91 pilots that bite the terra firma within a minute of departure. One, in fact, within the last week at my airport. Ten seconds from liftoff to crash. Departure procedures define climb gradient, direction, etc. Following one would have saved a plane load of people at my airport.

True, if you ignore the ODP, there are conditions where it can kill you. That's not to say that if you do NOT follow the ODP out of an airport, you are going to hit something each and every time. If it's VMC, I will happily see and avoid obstacles enroute to my first fix rather than flying the published ODP.

The only time you are REQUIRED to fly the ODP as a Part 91 operation is if the procedure is ASSIGNED by ATC. This is rare for non-towered airports, but does happen as a matter of SOP at some (not many) towered airports.

If it's IMC at a non-towered field, then flying the ODP is a brilliant idea in lieu of any other course guidance..no argument there.

 

[genna]

That was my thinking. I have found that ATC doesn't really give a rats A$$ what I file, and ends up giving me something else anyway, so why bother with the effort.

Depending on my direction of flight, seems that FF suggestion is almost pointless around here. File FF suggestion, get something pretty different in clearance and then get a nice and comprehensive re-route in flight. I used to just file direct. I should start doing that again.

 

[Tantalum]

get a nice and comprehensive re-route in flight

YES!

The other thing I don't get. I've gotten reroutes around here that are literally the same route I'm already on.. just instead of saying V186 (for example) they'll list out the waypoints

this is one of those areas where ATC could be ripe for optimization.. but that's for another thread

I'm with you. File direct. Why complicate your own life by trying to do ATC's job for them

 

[Palmpilot]

Filing direct is no doubt OK in many situations, but maybe there are some situations where it would throw off your fuel planning.

 

[Tantalum]

Filing direct is no doubt OK in many situations, but maybe there are some situations where it would throw off your fuel planning.

That's actually a great point

 

[coma24]

Tantalum, clearly you're in Socal. If a TEC route exists between the city pairs in question, are you saying that you get something totally different than the TEC route?

 

[N1120A]

Tantalum, clearly you're in Socal. If a TEC route exists between the city pairs in question, are you saying that you get something totally different than the TEC route?

He's definitely not saying that, because no one who flies in SoCal ever expects anything but a TEC route or radar vectors to a TEC route.

 

[Beatle1967]

That was my thinking. I have found that ATC doesn't really give a rats A$$ what I file, and ends up giving me something else anyway, so why bother with the effort.

Not all ODP's are equal. Your airplane may not have the performance to fly all of them. If it can, don't bother filing a specific DP.

 

[Tantalum]

Tantalum, clearly you're in Socal. If a TEC route exists between the city pairs in question, are you saying that you get something totally different than the TEC route?

Not totally different, but I have been vectored off or around, and it really doesn't matter what I file, as I'll get the TEC route anyway

 

[Palmpilot]

Not all ODP's are equal. Your airplane may not have the performance to fly all of them. If it can, don't bother filing a specific DP.

A good example is the ODP for Runway 18 at South Lake Tahoe (TVL). The takeoff minimums for that runway specify either 765 ft/nm or 810 ft/nm, depending on weather, and if you don't meet those minimums, the ODP does not guarantee terrain and obstruction clearance.

 

[Tantalum]

Siderant about the garbage tech in our planes.. but these takeoff and landing calculations are honestly pretty simple math, why you cannot just input your starting takeoff weight and CG in the flight computer and have it calculate all the stuff for you is beyond me

 

[Tantalum]

I would take that any day over a touchscreen which is just going to get smudged and be hard to use in turbulence

 

[N1120A]

I would take that any day over a touchscreen which is just going to get smudged and be hard to use in turbulence

My touchscreens work great in turbulence.

 

[Tantalum]

My touchscreens work great in turbulence.

You have to stabilize your finger on that little lip to touch the screen right.. who knows, maybe just personal preference, I like knobs and tactile things and things in cars too

 

[TheGolfPilot]

I can never guess departure procedures. John Wayne I am like 0-20 in the last year. I am pretty sure they look at what I guess and choose the other one. There are only two options in the direction I go.