CFII before you CFI

labbadabba

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labbadabba
Has anyone done their CFII prior to doing their CFI? This essentially makes the initial CFI an Add-on. I guess a lot of the big 141s do this but I was kinda shocked that it was a thing but I guess it makes sense. I can get my Commercial Multi with a single add-on if I really wanted...
 
Doing to instrument first is total non sense. You can do nothing with that certificate. With the initial CFI you can earn money while completing the inst.
 
It’s a thing now. When I was in training we were not smart enough to figure it out so I did my initial CFI with the FSDO. I don’t think it matters if you are prepared for the oral. If you are not and you want to go examiner shopping then it probably does matter.

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If you only want to teach instruments then no need for the CFI.
 
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Doing to instrument first is total non sense. You can do nothing with that certificate. With the initial CFI you can earn money while completing the inst.

Not true anymore. Guidance has changed and CFII (only) can give instruction.
 
still non sense. Any reputable flight school is not using these guys for instrument training.

Maybe to you, and I don’t believe you speak for all “reputable” flight schools.

Some instructors would rather specialize in a certain area. If that’s what the individual chooses, I don’t see a problem.
 
Maybe to you, and I don’t believe you speak for all “reputable” flight schools.

Some instructors would rather specialize in a certain area. If that’s what the individual chooses, I don’t see a problem.

The puppy mills would, but once again, you can’t buy experiance.
 
The puppy mills would, but once again, you can’t buy experiance.

How do you know that some of these people going this route have no experience?

You’re assuming a lot of things not in evidence.
 
The puppy mills would, but once again, you can’t buy experiance.
...or spell experience, apparently. ;)

But what experience does a CFI-Airplane give you that’s necessary to be a good CFI-Instrument Airplane?
 
In 1969.........I did it. Was CFII only.
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Maybe to you, and I don’t believe you speak for all “reputable” flight schools.

Some instructors would rather specialize in a certain area. If that’s what the individual chooses, I don’t see a problem.


The bread and butter of a flight school is CFI students, the stuff a CFII caltures is so smalls it’s hard to justify the expense for many low time guys.
 
This approach has been around for a while now. The selling point in everything I've read and heard was that people were doing it because they thought the checkride was going to be easier. Assuming you would be getting both the instrument instructor and airplane single engine ratings on your flight instructor certificate anyway, there is little to be gained by doing one or the other first. It will end up being the same amount of work in the long run. I've done a few flight instructor students this way but it was only on request or due to an airplane problem necessitating using a different plane first.

With the new rules however, if the intent was to do instrument instructing only I wouldn't bother with the airplane single engine rating.
 
For a CFI-I, 50 hours actual instrument time should be a minimum FAA req.

As should spin training be pre solo, and real slow flight, but the FAA isn’t about all that they got windmills to chase.
 
As should spin training be pre solo, and real slow flight, but the FAA isn’t about all that they got windmills to chase.

Real slow flight is required training,

(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;
Real spin training with puppy mill CFIs = real spin fatalities.
 
There were some advantages in getting the instrument first because the FAA required the initial CFI (no matter what flavor) to be done with an FSDO inspector rather than a designee. Since the Instrument ride is simpler than the full up Airplane ride, it made some small sense.

Since the many FSDOs are trending to letting designees handle even the initials, it's less of an issue.
 
When I did my CFII first back in 2003, it was an aircraft availability issue. I did my CFII in a 172, my MEI in a Piper Twin, and then finished the single engine CFI in my fixed gear 182, avoiding the need for a complex single. Since the rule change last year, you no longer need to use a complex aircraft.
 
Has anyone done their CFII prior to doing their CFI? This essentially makes the initial CFI an Add-on. I guess a lot of the big 141s do this but I was kinda shocked that it was a thing but I guess it makes sense. I can get my Commercial Multi with a single add-on if I really wanted...

How is it possible to add a rating to a certificate that does not exist?

Can a pilot add an instrument rating without any prior pilot certificate?
 
How is it possible to add a rating to a certificate that does not exist?

Can a pilot add an instrument rating without any prior pilot certificate?

§61.183 Eligibility requirements.
To be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating a person must:

(a) Be at least 18 years of age;

(b) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicant's flight instructor certificate as are necessary;

(c) Hold either a commercial pilot certificate or airline transport pilot certificate with:

(1) An aircraft category and class rating that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought; and

(2) An instrument rating, or privileges on that person's pilot certificate that are appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought, if applying for—

(i) A flight instructor certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating;

(ii) A flight instructor certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating;

(iii) A flight instructor certificate with a powered-lift rating; or

(iv) A flight instructor certificate with an instrument rating.

§61.191 Additional flight instructor ratings.
(a) A person who applies for an additional flight instructor rating on a flight instructor certificate must meet the eligibility requirements listed in §61.183 of this part that apply to the flight instructor rating sought.

(b) A person who applies for an additional rating on a flight instructor certificate is not required to pass the knowledge test on the areas listed in §61.185(a)(1) of this part.


§61.65 Instrument rating requirements.
(a) General. A person who applies for an instrument rating must:

(1) Hold at least a current private pilot certificate, or be concurrently applying for a private pilot certificate, with an airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift rating appropriate to the instrument rating sought


Note the difference in eligibility.
 
How is it possible to add a rating to a certificate that does not exist?

Can a pilot add an instrument rating without any prior pilot certificate?

Because the CFII is still a Flight Instructor Certificate by itself. The privileges are limited to Instrument instruction only leading to an instrument rating. This has been around a long time to get a CFII first as the initial because it’s an easier checkride related to instrument only procedures and a lot less to cover than the traditional CFI.

The CFII becomes the “initial” and therefore requires the DPE to ask FOI questions in the oral. Because the CFII would be the initial, I believe it still has to be done at the FSDO.

Then the CFI becomes the “add on” and you can do it with a DPE vs a FSDO. After completion, the CFI can sign off students for Private and Comm certificates.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
For a CFI-I, 50 hours actual instrument time should be a minimum FAA req.
And the CFI-A gets that instrument time?

Or are you no longer arguing that a CFI is useless without the -A and no reputable flight school would train/use one?
 
Because the CFII is still a Flight Instructor Certificate by itself. The privileges are limited to Instrument instruction only leading to an instrument rating. This has been around a long time to get a CFII first as the initial because it’s an easier checkride related to instrument only procedures and a lot less to cover than the traditional CFI.

The CFII becomes the “initial” and therefore requires the DPE to ask FOI questions in the oral. Because the CFII would be the initial, I believe it still has to be done at the FSDO.

Then the CFI becomes the “add on” and you can do it with a DPE vs a FSDO. After completion, the CFI can sign off students for Private and Comm certificates.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Few FSDO's are doing CFI initials anymore due to workload and lack of Ops ASI's. Most, if not all CFI's are being delegated to DPE's.
 
For a CFI-I, 50 hours actual instrument time should be a minimum FAA req.

But it's not. So your point?

Furthermore, what about the guy that has 1,000 hours of Instrument experience and decides he would like to instruct it? Are you going to deride him as well?
 
How is it possible to add a rating to a certificate that does not exist?

Can a pilot add an instrument rating without any prior pilot certificate?
Because most people seem to think “CFI” means “CFI -AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE”. It’s long been a proud point of ignorance for many. ;)
 
I went this route when I did my CFI initial. I simply did it because I felt more comfortable with the instrument material than I did with private and commercial material at the time.
 
When I did my CFII first back in 2003, it was an aircraft availability issue. I did my CFII in a 172, my MEI in a Piper Twin, and then finished the single engine CFI in my fixed gear 182, avoiding the need for a complex single. Since the rule change last year, you no longer need to use a complex aircraft.
That was the reason at the last FBO I worked, although it seemed like people were also more comfortable with the instrument instructor material when dealing with scary Feds. ;)
 
In 1969, you didn't even have to be a commercial/ATP.

You had to have the "knowledge" of a commercial pilot.
 
I would rather have an instructor with a less fancy designation, and lots of hours in real life experience flying. Not some low hour, no real solid experience instructor who only flew to gain more ratings. I fly two or three times a year with an older lady, she lacks the top designations, but is experienced. When learning to fly 31 years ago, the school had 3 instructors, the best of the 3 had the least designation then as well, but was full of common sense, and had flown bush planes for about a decade. It is bewildering that all too often, the low hour, inexperienced pilots are the instructors. Personally give me someone aged 30 to 70, who has 5,000 to 20,000 hours in their book.
 
I would rather have an instructor with a less fancy designation, and lots of hours in real life experience flying. Not some low hour, no real solid experience instructor who only flew to gain more ratings. I fly two or three times a year with an older lady, she lacks the top designations, but is experienced. When learning to fly 31 years ago, the school had 3 instructors, the best of the 3 had the least designation then as well, but was full of common sense, and had flown bush planes for about a decade. It is bewildering that all too often, the low hour, inexperienced pilots are the instructors. Personally give me someone aged 30 to 70, who has 5,000 to 20,000 hours in their book.

In this day and time, anyone with the experience you would like to see can make better money in industry, and not worry about the liability.

You may find the occasional retired individual, but again, living in retirement can become hell with one lawsuit.
 
It was a way to get out of FOI stuff, but I suppose the DPE could/should still hit the FOI on the CFII given that it is also the initial.
 
It was a way to get out of FOI stuff, but I suppose the DPE could/should still hit the FOI on the CFII given that it is also the initial.
Doing the instrument instructor first doesn’t get you out of the FOI stuff. The certificate says “Flight Instructor “, and in order to get that certificate, the FOI and appropriate oral exam is still required.
 
It was a way to get out of FOI stuff, but I suppose the DPE could/should still hit the FOI on the CFII given that it is also the initial.

It’s not a “could/should” situation. It is a WILL situation since you do not currently hold a flight instructor certificate.

Holding a ground instructor certificate gets you no advantage either, other than locking in your FOI written test score if expiration was a concern.
 
Not doubting you, but any recent cases to back up your statement?

I haven’t tracked it recently, but I did have a friend who trained a fellow, who after he got rated flew his aircraft into the ground. The lawyers sued everything they could attach, including my friend. He ultimately prevailed, but he spent a fortune on an attorney to do so.
 
In this day and time, anyone with the experience you would like to see can make better money in industry, and not worry about the liability.

You may find the occasional retired individual, but again, living in retirement can become hell with one lawsuit.

Some just enjoy it, they love to fly, share their vast experience, make their own hours, be home every night, and not a glorified bus driver like an airline pilot is. They can buy their own plane, or work with people who already own like myself. I pay her $50/hour, which is significantly more than the average working stiff makes. She owns a 172, but is more than happy to fly with me and others in whatever we own. Occasionally over the years, I have flown to her home airport, parked whatever I owned at the time, opting to get in some 172 time in her plane. She has social skill, experience, and common sense that nobody despite their designation has at age 19 to 24 which is the common instructor. Don't tell me about what the book says to do when icing up, tell me what you did the dozens of times you experienced it yourself. Dead stick to 1500 feet of grass should not even make the instructor sweat, but just fly with a smile, come in slightly high, add a side slip to scrub the last bit of altitude and straighten out at 30' agl and plop it down like it was a walk in the park. Mountain flying is nothing at all, just another normal day, as is the landing on a beach beside some lake. Perfectly flat lake landing is so smooth, or windy day with chop and a tricky taxi to the dock with waves slapping the floats and winds pushing the plane are all handled in stride. IFR in actual IFR is just the regular flight for them, not just 50 hours of hood time in severe clear. By the time I got my commercial I was a way better pilot than one of the instructors was at the school. We all have to make our own choices in life, look for a true teacher, and focus less on some letters in a log book. And you young people who are out there learning to fly, remember that instructor is not your boss, you're paying his salary, so speak up and make suggestions. If your airport has a short, infrequently used runway, with a nice crosswind happening while your going to fly, request it....not that fancy 80' wide by 5,000' long paved monstrosity that has a head wind, which teaches you nothing. A dozen touch and goes on the crosswind 2,100' runway is actually teaching you something. When time to do your solo xc, ask to pick your own destinations, make it an all day adventure, it requires a fuel stop, and a place to eat lunch, beautiful scenery, and when you land back at home days end you just added 6 or 7 hours to your log book. I requested my own xc, it was granted....i logged 7.2 hours, had a fabulous lunch, and fondly remember it still 31 years later. It was a 4 stop day, I got fuel twice because I would rather have more than enough. Sat out on a patio eating a burger, drinking a milkshake watching others come and go. Flew over a beautiful lake, remember watching the boaters and people water skiing, I dropped into slow flight so I would have more time to take it all in because I was only doing 60 knots and dragging flaps. One of my stops was 1800 feet of runway and it was crosswind that day, both ends mean if you screwed up there was no area to roll out into, just water to swim in after you crashed through the 4' tall fence. Be your own advocate and choose to make yourself a better pilot. If an airport is not too busy, when the tower gives you some instructions, say no, and ask for your choice. They are an advisory, not God, and 99.9% of the time they are happy to grant you your wish on a slow day. If they say use 15, ask for 23 instead, ultimately you are responsible for your own education, it doesn't matter if you are becoming a truck driver, surgeon, or pilot.
 
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I haven’t tracked it recently, but I did have a friend who trained a fellow, who after he got rated flew his aircraft into the ground. The lawyers sued everything they could attach, including my friend. He ultimately prevailed, but he spent a fortune on an attorney to do so.

Did he not sue for legal fees after the fact?
 
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