Can I enter Class C...?

[VWGhiaBob]

Taking off from KCNO 26L VFR straight out puts you right below the Class C shelf for KONT for a few minutes. Take-off VFR instructions are to "maintain runway heading at or below 2,500". The Class C shelf is 2,700. So far, so good.

Switching to Flight Following, I hear, "N324CD cancel altitude restriction". If I'm still under the shelf, am I cleared into it (I'm only 200 feet below it), or do I wait until clear? If I must wait, why would they bother cancelling the restriction if it only gives me 200 feet?

Someone will probably say, "he shouldn't be flying if he doesn't know this." Actually, I'm an 800 hour IFR pilot. I'm just so used to being on IFR...where you follow all instructions. Going back to VFR, I'm not so sure.

On a recent flight, I stayed below the shelf, but wondered if my clearance would have allowed me to pierce the Class C.

 

[Clip4]

If flight following is the Tracon for the C, you may enter. Two way radio communications have been established and the previous altitude restriction was canceled.

 

[benyflyguy]

If flight following is the Tracon for the C, you may enter. Two way radio communications have been established and the previous altitude restriction was canceled.

Winner winner chicken dinner!!

 

[EppyGA]

What's the over/under on how many pages this will go now?

 

[Zeldman]

Depends on if it is a high wing or low wing aircraft...

 

[cgrab]

If flight following is the Tracon for the C, you may enter. Two way radio communications have been established and the previous altitude restriction was canceled.

But if it's not...then no you can't climb into Class C until you contact the Class C approach controller. The cancel altitude restriction was given because it was no longer required by the controller who gave it regardless of where you were relative to the Class C.

 

[Radar Contact]

If flight following is the Tracon for the C, you may enter. Two way radio communications have been established and the previous altitude restriction was canceled.

+another for this

 

[PaulMKE]

Someone will probably say, "he shouldn't be flying if he doesn't know this."

Not at all. It’s a great question especially VFR on flight following. On FF I’ve been vectored into C airspace, and when I enquired as to the clearance, was met with a minute of silence followed by a “cleared into XXX” so I think they’re doing their best but sometimes don’t have your level of sit awareness.

At risk of being pedantic, I might just point you to 91.123: if uncertain of a clearance, ask for a clarification.

 

[Tantalum]

I'm an 800 hour IFR pilot. I'm just so used to being on IFR...where you follow all instructions. Going back to VFR, I'm not so sure.

Funny... I almost drilled straight into a Bravo recently after having flown the last 80 or hours IFR and flew VFR recently..

I had to brush up on the rules:


...so basically, assuming you are established on flight following then you are okay to fly into C and D.. for the *super* pedants out there, if they say "remain clear of XYZ Charlie" then you aren't allowed in, even though you've established two way..

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Funny... I almost drilled straight into a Bravo recently after having flown the last 80 or hours IFR and flew VFR recently..

I had to brush up on the rules:
View attachment 79385

...so basically, assuming you are established on flight following then you are okay to fly into C and D.. for the *super* pedants out there, if they say "remain clear of XYZ Charlie" then you aren't allowed in, even though you've established two way..

Interesting...though...the 2 way has to be with the Tower, at least I thought. Folks above say if it’s TRACON, I’m good. Next question...how do I know if it’s TRACON? I’m mean, to me, it’s called So Cal Approach. Is that TRACON for the Class C?

 

[MrAnderson]

Funny... I almost drilled straight into a Bravo recently after having flown the last 80 or hours IFR and flew VFR recently..

I had to brush up on the rules:
View attachment 79385

...so basically, assuming you are established on flight following then you are okay to fly into C and D.. for the *super* pedants out there, if they say "remain clear of XYZ Charlie" then you aren't allowed in, even though you've established two way..

I depart under a class C (from a G)if I contact clearance delivery for FF they will tell me to remain clear of class c... I don’t have to comply I just have to establish 2 way com with approach/departure after leaving the CTAF prior to entering the C. This would be almost no different if it were a D. It’s still the pilots responsibility to establish 2 way radio com with the TRACON. Com with the Tower in this case doesn’t satisfy the radio communications until tower hands you to the appropriate frequency and they make contact. They are expecting you, but flight following is not a clearance. If there is any question about it ask the guys on the other end of the radio

 

[Radar Contact]

Interesting...though...the 2 way has to be with the Tower, at least I thought. Folks above say if it’s TRACON, I’m good. Next question...how do I know if it’s TRACON? I’m mean, to me, it’s called So Cal Approach. Is that TRACON for the Class C?

Doesn't need to be just the tower. They ONLY own the surface area (usually within 5 miles of the airport and sfc-3000 agl or so...it varies). The approach control owns the rest.

 

[TommyG]

You can always ask tower if they can get you entry into the class c.

 

[asicer]

Interesting...though...the 2 way has to be with the Tower, at least I thought. Folks above say if it’s TRACON, I’m good. Next question...how do I know if it’s TRACON? I’m mean, to me, it’s called So Cal Approach. Is that TRACON for the Class C?

Even for a D, sometimes Approach (TRACON) coordinates for you so that you don't have to talk to tower if you are just transiting and you stay on frequency.

 

[Radar Contact]

Even for a D, sometimes Approach (TRACON) coordinates for you so that you don't have to talk to tower if you are just transiting and you stay on frequency.

True. And sometimes we don't have to coordinate because we own a portion of their charted Delta and pilots don't even know. For example, KDPA Delta is charted SFC-3300. The TRACON owns 3 and above. If you're VFR FF at 3 heading that way I will just tell you to stay at or above 3. If you are below then I will coordinate with the tower and if they don't have conflicting traffic I will keep you on the freq, if they do then I may have to switch you to them.

 

[asicer]

And sometimes we don't have to coordinate because we own a portion of their charted Delta and pilots don't even know.

I hate it when you guys keep secrets from us.

 

[EdFred]

Interesting...though...the 2 way has to be with the Tower, at least I thought. Folks above say if it’s TRACON, I’m good. Next question...how do I know if it’s TRACON? I’m mean, to me, it’s called So Cal Approach. Is that TRACON for the Class C?

If its tower the only time you'd ever be allowed in C airspace is when they clear you for take off since you always* talk to TRACON first. Talking to socal allows you into the class C.

* yeah im sure there is some weird C airspace out there someone will point out that you don't talk to approach on the way in, but for every other C out there it's always approach then tower inbound.

 

[Tantalum]

TRACON

 

[schmookeeg]

Taking off from KCNO 26L VFR straight out puts you right below the Class C shelf for KONT for a few minutes. Take-off VFR instructions are to "maintain runway heading at or below 2,500". The Class C shelf is 2,700. So far, so good.

Switching to Flight Following, I hear, "N324CD cancel altitude restriction". If I'm still under the shelf, am I cleared into it (I'm only 200 feet below it), or do I wait until clear? If I must wait, why would they bother cancelling the restriction if it only gives me 200 feet?

Someone will probably say, "he shouldn't be flying if he doesn't know this." Actually, I'm an 800 hour IFR pilot. I'm just so used to being on IFR...where you follow all instructions. Going back to VFR, I'm not so sure.

On a recent flight, I stayed below the shelf, but wondered if my clearance would have allowed me to pierce the Class C.

Legally, the second they responded to you with "N324CD", you are able to fly in and out of the ONT class C. (or any others you want to go play in) -- stay clear of B still if that's not obvs. (IFR makes life so easy )

They cancelled your altitude restriction because you might have wanted to fly something different from 2,500. I've had SoCal forget to "cancel altitude restriction" before, so he was on point. I've had to ask, and you're stuck there forever until you do.

SoCal seems most disturbed by surprise changes in altitude, so I try to advise them even though it's not required. I get more friendly "thank you" responses to it than gruff "roger"s, so I continue doing so. If you wanted to play in the Charlie, you could keep comms tight and still respond with something like "324CD, leaving 2,500 climbing 4,500", thus acknowledging the cancel, AND not surprising him when you shoot up to your intended altitude. Then if he has some heartburn with your chosen altitude, he can re-restrict you now instead of in a panicked "say altitude?!" later on when he notices.

 

[frfly172]

when in doubt ask .

 

[Sundancer]

Taking off from KCNO 26L VFR straight out puts you right below the Class C shelf for KONT for a few minutes. Take-off VFR instructions are to "maintain runway heading at or below 2,500". The Class C shelf is 2,700. So far, so good.

Switching to Flight Following, I hear, "N324CD cancel altitude restriction". If I'm still under the shelf, am I cleared into it (I'm only 200 feet below it), or do I wait until clear? If I must wait, why would they bother cancelling the restriction if it only gives me 200 feet?

Someone will probably say, "he shouldn't be flying if he doesn't know this." Actually, I'm an 800 hour IFR pilot. I'm just so used to being on IFR...where you follow all instructions. Going back to VFR, I'm not so sure.

On a recent flight, I stayed below the shelf, but wondered if my clearance would have allowed me to pierce the Class C.

"...where you follow all instructions..."; Geez, I hope not. That's putting a lot of faith in, and pressure on, another human. Sometimes "unable" is better, like that heading change into a cell, or the wrong call sign/confused call sign.

ATC clears, not instructs. You've already been instructed; it says so on your ticket. Seriously, I know what you meant, just yanking your chain a bit. But still. . .

 

[Shawn]

But if it's not...then no you can't climb into Class C until you contact the Class C approach controller. The cancel altitude restriction was given because it was no longer required by the controller who gave it regardless of where you were relative to the Class C.

Negative...if you are not talking to the controller that is providing services to that airspace, then it is explicitly on that controller to coordinate transitions through that airspace and the pilot is not expected to obtain their own authorization while receiving Radar Services.

Either way, the pilot as described by the OP is authorized to enter Charlie absent any instructions otherwise.

...so basically, assuming you are established on flight following then you are okay to fly into C and D..

For transitions through but not exactly for arrivals into Delta as I have learned. Authorization to enter Delta is not just to establish and maintain communication but to establish and maintain communication with the ATC facility providing services to that that airspace. For a Charlie, TRACON typically controls the air and Tower the runway. In Delta, TRACON however does not provide services in the air (except for LOA's or other arrangements that are unknown to pilots). Tower controls BOTH air and runway....so by letter of the law you must be taking to Tower to be authorized to enter and pilots have indeed been given PD for late handoffs by approach even while on FF (happened at LVK with a controller known to be a Delta Bravo). For transitions THROUGH C and D TRACON will coordinate without handoffs to Tower but for arrival INTO Delta you need to be sure you are talking to Tower before entry. For Charlie you are good, hence my comments above.

 

[zaitcev]

I hate it when you guys keep secrets from us.

No kidding. Out west, the most important, and best-kept secret is the Center frequency. For some of the bigger airports it's documented in the former AF/D, now known as "supplement". But not for many. So, you take off from a strip in the middle of Arizona or New Mexico, and who do your talk to about FF? There's no way to know!

I've gotten to collecting this vital information from a variety of sources. Every time I fly along and Center hands me a new frequency, I write it down with location. After landing, I put it on a paper map. Sometimes, I can find the sectors on state aeronautical chart - it's something that DoT publish in CO, NM, and AZ. Pilot associations sometimes publish these. At times, you can scroundge departure frequences off airport websites.

In the rest of the country, the density of airports and controlled airspace is such that I often can bum FF off approach airspace for Charlies, TRSA, or even ask random tower controllers (although I try not to impose on them unless it's really critical). Sometimes large Delta fields have approach control that can provide it. Rosewell NM and San Angelo TX are like that.

So yeah, it's survivable. Still, it's a bummer. Sometimes I think about getting IR just so I know how to pilfer the information from the instrument charts.

 

[EdFred]

No kidding. Out west, the most important, and best-kept secret is the Center frequency. For some of the bigger airports it's documented in the former AF/D, now known as "supplement". But not for many. So, you take off from a strip in the middle of Arizona or New Mexico, and who do your talk to about FF? There's no way to know!

I've gotten to collecting this vital information from a variety of sources. Every time I fly along and Center hands me a new frequency, I write it down with location. After landing, I put it on a paper map. Sometimes, I can find the sectors on state aeronautical chart - it's something that DoT publish in CO, NM, and AZ. Pilot associations sometimes publish these. At times, you can scroundge departure frequences off airport websites.

In the rest of the country, the density of airports and controlled airspace is such that I often can bum FF off approach airspace for Charlies, TRSA, or even ask random tower controllers (although I try not to impose on them unless it's really critical). Sometimes large Delta fields have approach control that can provide it. Rosewell NM and San Angelo TX are like that.

So yeah, it's survivable. Still, it's a bummer. Sometimes I think about getting IR just so I know how to pilfer the information from the instrument charts.

On the GNS series you can always go to the NRST page, and then pull up center frequencies. Not sure if later models or Avidyne does that, but I would assume they do.

 

[Palmpilot]

If flight following is the Tracon for the C, you may enter. Two way radio communications have been established and the previous altitude restriction was canceled.

And since the term used in §91.130(c)(1) is "facility," if flight following is being provided by Center instead of Tracon, that would appear not to meet the requirement for class C, since it's a different facility.

"(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace."​

 

[Radar Contact]

On the GNS series you can always go to the NRST page, and then pull up center frequencies. Not sure if later models or Avidyne does that, but I would assume they do.

On the Avidyne IFD's you push the freq page and it has them all listed there as well. You just touch it and it auto-loads into the standby.

 

[mryan75]

Taking off from KCNO 26L VFR straight out puts you right below the Class C shelf for KONT for a few minutes. Take-off VFR instructions are to "maintain runway heading at or below 2,500". The Class C shelf is 2,700. So far, so good.

Switching to Flight Following, I hear, "N324CD cancel altitude restriction". If I'm still under the shelf, am I cleared into it (I'm only 200 feet below it), or do I wait until clear? If I must wait, why would they bother cancelling the restriction if it only gives me 200 feet?

Someone will probably say, "he shouldn't be flying if he doesn't know this." Actually, I'm an 800 hour IFR pilot. I'm just so used to being on IFR...where you follow all instructions. Going back to VFR, I'm not so sure.

On a recent flight, I stayed below the shelf, but wondered if my clearance would have allowed me to pierce the Class C.

Without having read the other answers, I'd say it depends on who you were talking to. I believe the only controlling agency with authority to clear you into the KONT class C is KONT tower, approach or departure. I would say that if you've established communications with one of the three you're good to go. When in doubt, ask. And it's not a dumb question, by the way.

 

[EdFred]

On the Avidyne IFD's you push the freq page and it has them all listed there as well. You just touch it and it auto-loads into the standby.

You and your fancy autoload. Back in my day, we had to push knobs, twist knobs, and then select frequencies to the stand by and we liked it!

 

[mryan75]

On the GNS series you can always go to the NRST page, and then pull up center frequencies. Not sure if later models or Avidyne does that, but I would assume they do.

Same with GTN.

 

[Velocity173]

Always contact TRACON before the shelf but the core of the C is usually controlled by tower and not approach. Some delegate jurisdiction to 2,500 AGL while others have the whole thing. Example, at KBNA they want you to contact tower under the shelf and penetrating the core.

Transitioning a C under FF you might not stay up TRACON either. They could very well hand you off to tower to provide FF while in the core, then send you back to TRACON when clear.

 

[lancie00]

Here's what King Commercial course says about Class D:

 

[EdFred]

Always contact TRACON before the shelf but the core of the C is usually controlled by tower and not approach. Some delegate jurisdiction to 2,500 AGL while others have the whole thing. Example, at KBNA they want you to contact tower under the shelf and penetrating the core.

Transitioning a C under FF you might not stay up TRACON either. They could very well hand you off to tower to provide FF while in the core, then send you back to TRACON when clear.

In 17 years I have never talked to tower when transitioning through the core at GRR. Always stayed with Grand Rapids (now Great Lakes) Approach - and usually at 3,000 (2200ish AGL) so there's definitely no hard and fast rule.

 

[danhagan]

You guys are TOTAL sissies! Never ASK ATC for permission. ALWAYS make up your own squawk and tell them what your going to use (I prefer starting with a seven number). Good thing here is that if they send up something very fast to intercept you, you already have the first 7 entered for your Intercepted 7777 code

 

[Velocity173]

In 17 years I have never talked to tower when transitioning through the core at GRR. Always stayed with Grand Rapids (now Great Lakes) Approach - and usually at 3,000 (2200ish AGL) so there's definitely no hard and fast rule.

And there’s no requirement for TRACON to switch you to tower either. I assure you though, TRACON coordinated with tower for your transition thru the core.

 

[EdFred]

And there’s no requirement for TRACON to switch you to tower either. I assure you though, TRACON coordinated with tower for your transition thru the core.

Maybe. Generally it's not too busy when I go through, and I'm right over the top, so I'm not on any approach or departure paths.

 

[Velocity173]

Maybe. Generally it's not too busy when I go through, and I'm right over the top, so I'm not on any approach or departure paths.

Yeah traffic load has a lot to do with it. I just landed at a satellite within a C a few minutes ago. Approach sent me to tower today. Tomorrow, approach might keep me up their freq. All depends on what tower has going on.

 

[MrAnderson]

What we have learned from this post.

You "Tower - Cirrus XYZ Squawking company code 7501, lining up on Runway 26L, Get me on flight following to ABC at, oh, about 9.8k ft"

Tower "Standby"

You "Roger, Departing Runway 26"

Tower "Do not depart, you do not have clearance"

You "Squawking 7600 I appear to have radio failure climbing for reception, proceeding on course, please cancel flight following"

… once clear of class charlie - contact departure "XYZ departure - Cirrus XYZ - I have regained com's after climbing thorough your airspace. I'd like to re-establish Flight Following"

Departure "unable squawk VFR, someone will be in touch at your destination"

You "Roger" - then you scud run below radar and go to a different airport.

 

[Shuswap BC]

It is better to ask for forgiveness, than permission.

 

[redtail]

What we have learned from this post.

You "Tower - Cirrus XYZ Squawking company code 7501, lining up on Runway 26L, Get me on flight following to ABC at, oh, about 9.8k ft"

Tower "Standby"

You "Roger, Departing Runway 26"

Tower "Do not depart, you do not have clearance"

You "Squawking 7600 I appear to have radio failure climbing for reception, proceeding on course, please cancel flight following"

… once clear of class charlie - contact departure "XYZ departure - Cirrus XYZ - I have regained com's after climbing thorough your airspace. I'd like to re-establish Flight Following"

Departure "unable squawk VFR, someone will be in touch at your destination"

You "Roger" - then you scud run below radar and go to a different airport.

LOL

 

[Clip4]

And since the term used in §91.130(c)(1) is "facility," if flight following is being provided by Center instead of Tracon, that would appear not to meet the requirement for class C, since it's a different facility.

"(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace."​

Except you will never get Center providing traffic advisories in Class C.