Can a student pilot move an aircraft on the ramp?

Piper18O said:
Since I am making it up as I go along, lets say you have to taxi from a tie down spot and can taxi across a big area of the ramp but it would be safer to skirt along on a taxiway for a 20 or 30 yards to get around a hanger. Answer for both.
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Simple. This is another FAA backwards day question. You can't move in the movement area without authorization from ground. In the non-movement area, you get to move all you want, whenever you want.
 
Piper18O said:
New question but related to taxi. Do you have to have a clearance at a controlled airport to taxi the plane to the fuel pumps?
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Depends on where the fuel pumps are. If you remain in the non-movement area then no contact with the tower is required. Any time you enter a taxiway or cross a runway you must contact the tower.

FYI, this also applies if you are not in an airplane e.g some airports have tiedowns that are only accessible if you walk across a taxiway. In that case you need to talk to the tower first.
 
JScarry said:
Depends on where the fuel pumps are. If you remain in the non-movement area then no contact with the tower is required. Any time you enter a taxiway or cross a runway you must contact the tower.

FYI, this also applies if you are not in an airplane e.g some airports have tiedowns that are only accessible if you walk across a taxiway. In that case you need to talk to the tower first.
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Technically you need to contact ground, not tower, even though ground is probably in the tower. Just for a student that might not realize that.
 
Still waiting for the Canadian pilot to say you need a clearance for everything. Oops, this is Pilots of America. Never mind.
 
So you take your plane to get fuel and bash the wing into something. Your insurance is likely not to pay your claim. If that something is another plane you can pay for that too. Go for it.
 
Clip4 said:
So you take your plane to get fuel and bash the wing into something. Your insurance is likely not to pay your claim. If that something is another plane you can pay for that too. Go for it.
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Why wouldn't the insurance pay the claim?
 
Yes you can.

My CFI asked me to taxi and it was after the first or second lesson. He wanted me to pick him up at the FBO. He did put an endorsement in my log book. He also asked that I don't cross the runways since I didnt need to. So in a way kinda funny. My first ever endorsement was a taxi endorsement. My second was HP and 3rd was solo.
 
There's no legal thing as a "taxi endorsement." He is required to sign off any instruction he gives you.
 
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Clip4 said:
Because the policy coverage is contingent on direct supervision by a CFI, ( meaning the CFI is physically present and approves the operation. This is standard language for policies issued for students. And if he screws the up and the CFI is sued, any CFI insurance he has will not cover the event either.

https://www.soaringsafety.org/briefings/cfisuper.html
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Depends what kind of insurance you’re talking about, because your example is not a one size fits all.

If the student carries a renters policy and he dings the airplane up, it will still pay. The renters policy works as good on the ground as it does in the air.
 
Ryanb said:
Depends what kind of insurance you’re talking about, because your example is not a one size fits all.

If the student carries a renters policy and he dings the airplane up, it will still pay. The renters policy works as good on the ground as it does in the air.

Now, if you’re talking about the flight schools umbrella policy covering the student in the event of a ding while moving airplanes around on the ramp, than you would have to refer to their own policy, but typically they would not cover it.
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Tell you what, go out and get an student owner policy. They make it rather clear In the endorsement page they are not paying for accidents when the student is operating the aircraft when not under supervision. If you are not endorsed for solo and under supervision, the student has no reason to operate the plane - getting gas included.

Some of you take the side of the OP without even knowing if his CFI rates him safe to start the plane and taxi.
 
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JScarry said:
Depends on where the fuel pumps are. If you remain in the non-movement area then no contact with the tower is required. Any time you enter a taxiway or cross a runway you must contact the tower.

FYI, this also applies if you are not in an airplane e.g some airports have tiedowns that are only accessible if you walk across a taxiway. In that case you need to talk to the tower first.
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Salty said:
Technically you need to contact ground, not tower, even though ground is probably in the tower. Just for a student that might not realize that.
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I was going to pick that nit, but you beat me to it!

:D
 
The guy owns the plane. It’s not a rental. I’m pretty confident he’d be covered moving his own plane to put fuel in it.

if it were a rental, all this would be moot because the owner would likely have a rule against a student taxiing their plane solo before a solo endorsement.
 
My co-owner is a student pilot our insurance says, "When an aircraft is being operated by a pilot named in Item 7. of the Declarations who holds a Student Pilot Certificate, this insurance does not apply under any Coverage unless the named Student pilot is under the direct supervision of a Certified Flight
Instructor."

and,

"When an aircraft carrying more than one person is being operated by a pilot named in Item 7. of the Declarations who holds a
Student Pilot Certificate, this insurance does not apply under any Coverage unless one of the other persons is a Certified Flight
Instructor on board the aircraft for the purpose of instructing or examining the named Student Pilot."
 
DFH65 said:
My co-owner is a student pilot our insurance says, "When an aircraft is being operated by a pilot named in Item 7. of the Declarations who holds a Student Pilot Certificate, this insurance does not apply under any Coverage unless the named Student pilot is under the direct supervision of a Certified Flight
Instructor."

and,

"When an aircraft carrying more than one person is being operated by a pilot named in Item 7. of the Declarations who holds a
Student Pilot Certificate, this insurance does not apply under any Coverage unless one of the other persons is a Certified Flight
Instructor on board the aircraft for the purpose of instructing or examining the named Student Pilot."
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Not sure how he could do a cross country solo under those restrictions.
 
DFH65 said:
My co-owner is a student pilot our insurance says, "When an aircraft is being operated by a pilot named in Item 7. of the Declarations who holds a Student Pilot Certificate, this insurance does not apply under any Coverage unless the named Student pilot is under the direct supervision of a Certified Flight
Instructor."

and,

"When an aircraft carrying more than one person is being operated by a pilot named in Item 7. of the Declarations who holds a
Student Pilot Certificate, this insurance does not apply under any Coverage unless one of the other persons is a Certified Flight
Instructor on board the aircraft for the purpose of instructing or examining the named Student Pilot."
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Which is standard language in about every owned policy. The CFI must be present and assess conditions before the student operates the aircraft, if the student jumps in the plane and taxis to get fuel without the CFI present , the insurance is not going to cover the bad results.
 
Clip4 said:
Which is standard language in about every owned policy. The CFI must be present and assess conditions before the student operates the aircraft, if the student jumps in the plane and taxis to get fuel without the CFI present , the insurance is not going to cover the bad results.
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But it's ok for the student to fly 50 miles away and taxi at an airport without the CFI present? That doesn't sound like "direct" supervision to me.

Makes no sense.
 
Salty said:
The guy owns the plane. It’s not a rental. I’m pretty confident he’d be covered moving his own plane to put fuel in it.

if it were a rental, all this would be moot because the owner would likely have a rule against a student taxiing their plane solo before a solo endorsement.
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I guess I don't understand the rush to taxi the airplane on his own. The instructor said no, I'm willing to bet the instructor had a good reason to say so, namely he didn't think the guy was up to it yet. Rather than find a way around the instructor, better to just tell the instructor he wants to be able to taxi to the gas pump on his own, let's get to the point where the instructor is ok to let this happen. What would that take? Another lesson or two maybe.
 
I can understand OPs position. My LAST flight with a certain CFII went something like this.

I flew MY Cardinal Airport A -> Airport B.
Picked up the CFII at B and went out for a lovely morning of hood work, including approaches to Airport C.
Couple hours later I said, "Let's do this one full stop so I can get cheap gas, then I'll drop you back at B."

During the fuel stop, she went to the ladies room (I presume) and spoke to her husband on the mobile phone. Next word I heard from her was in response to my question, "Ready to go?" and she said "Yup."

She billed me for the fuel stop time!$!%@#@

I said, "If you charge me for that time this will be my last lesson." And it was.

Sure, it was like $30. But that $30 negated the fuel savings at C.
 
Ravioli said:
I can understand OPs position. My LAST flight with a certain CFII went something like this.

I flew MY Cardinal Airport A -> Airport B.
Picked up the CFII at B and went out for a lovely morning of hood work, including approaches to Airport C.
Couple hours later I said, "Let's do this one full stop so I can get cheap gas, then I'll drop you back at B."

During the fuel stop, she went to the ladies room (I presume) and spoke to her husband on the mobile phone. Next word I heard from her was in response to my question, "Ready to go?" and she said "Yup."

She billed me for the fuel stop time!$!%@#@

I said, "If you charge me for that time this will be my last lesson." And it was.

Sure, it was like $30. But that $30 negated the fuel savings at C.
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Why shouldn't you pay for that time? I think she was fine to charge you for it, you should have asked her before you stopped rather than presume she wouldn't charge you.
 
@PaulS - For the same reason she shouldn't charge me for the time she's on the phone during a ground lesson. And why I don't charge clients for time I'm not working on their project.

My current CFI charges more per hour but isn't a clock watcher. I usually round up to the nearest $20 when I'm paying him.
 
Reminds me of my return to flying a few years ago now. I was with my new instructor, we ended the first lesson, I paid, then I thought of a few more questions. I kept him about another 30 minutes, I noticed he was giving me a weird look every once in a while, but he was very polite and answered every question. I got home and thought about it, then realized he was teaching me and not being paid for it. So next lesson, I told him that I should've asked my questions while he was on the clock last time. I said that it would probably happen again and I understand this is his living, I didn't want him working for free, so I told him to add the extra time to the next lesson when I do that. It happened a few more times and I paid him for it, everyone was happy.
 
Ravioli said:
I can understand OPs position. My LAST flight with a certain CFII went something like this.

I flew MY Cardinal Airport A -> Airport B.
Picked up the CFII at B and went out for a lovely morning of hood work, including approaches to Airport C.
Couple hours later I said, "Let's do this one full stop so I can get cheap gas, then I'll drop you back at B."

During the fuel stop, she went to the ladies room (I presume) and spoke to her husband on the mobile phone. Next word I heard from her was in response to my question, "Ready to go?" and she said "Yup."

She billed me for the fuel stop time!$!%@#@

I said, "If you charge me for that time this will be my last lesson." And it was.

Sure, it was like $30. But that $30 negated the fuel savings at C.
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why do you feel she shouldn’t charge you?
She charged for her time, whether instructing at that point or not. That’s perfectly fine.
Maybe you should have said I am going to stop for fuel, and I don’t want to be charged for time. She might have said drop me off at my airport first. Problem solved.
 
PaulS said:
I guess I don't understand the rush to taxi the airplane on his own. The instructor said no, I'm willing to bet the instructor had a good reason to say so, namely he didn't think the guy was up to it yet. Rather than find a way around the instructor, better to just tell the instructor he wants to be able to taxi to the gas pump on his own, let's get to the point where the instructor is ok to let this happen. What would that take? Another lesson or two maybe.
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the CFI should be man enough to say “I don’t think you should, it’s not a good idea for now” instead of saying he isn’t allowed and can’t cite where this phantom rule came from.
 
Ravioli said:
@PaulS - For the same reason she shouldn't charge me for the time she's on the phone during a ground lesson. And why I don't charge clients for time I'm not working on their project.

My current CFI charges more per hour but isn't a clock watcher. I usually round up to the nearest $20 when I'm paying him.
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Different things Ravioli, she was captive to you and you added an extra half hour to her day, you should not expect that for free. Time on the phone while you are sitting there? Yeah, you should not pay for that, but you need to say something if it's excessive.
 
TommyG said:
the CFI should be man enough to say “I don’t think you should, it’s not a good idea for now” instead of saying he isn’t allowed and can’t cite where this phantom rule came from.
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I didn't read that the instructor said it wasn't allowed, sounded more like it was just a "no" as in he didn't trust him to do it yet. Essentially once you are signed off for unsupervised solo you can do this stuff.

If this guy prangs his or someone else's airplane, one of the first people to get interviewed and potentially blamed is the instructor.
 
PaulS said:
I didn't read that the instructor said it wasn't allowed, sounded more like it was just a "no" as in he didn't trust him to do it yet. Essentially once you are signed off for unsupervised solo you can do this stuff.

If this guy prangs his or someone else's airplane, one of the first people to get interviewed and potentially blamed is the instructor.
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People can play the “what if” game all day. Point is there is no legal restriction. There is no FAR that clearly stipulates that it is not allowed.
 
Salty, he says the CFI can't cite an FAR, which to me means it's not about the rules, it's more that the CFI doesn't think the guy is ready. Pilots and students should listen to that stuff from a CFI, not try to find a way around it.
 
TommyG said:
People can play the “what if” game all day. Point is there is no legal restriction. There is no FAR that clearly stipulates that it is not allowed.
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No what ifs here, the CFI says no, that should be enough. We don't need a rule to cite for every situation where a CFI feels a student isn't ready to do something.
 
PaulS said:
Salty, he says the CFI can't cite an FAR, which to me means it's not about the rules, it's more that the CFI doesn't think the guy is ready. Pilots and students should listen to that stuff from a CFI, not try to find a way around it.
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A CFI can't prevent the owner of an aircraft from taxiing it. He has no authority whatsoever to do so.
 
Salty said:
A CFI can't prevent the owner of an aircraft from taxiing it. He has no authority whatsoever to do so.
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That's fine, what ever, pretty dumb of a student to go against what the CFI tells him, but to each his own.
 
PaulS said:
That's fine, what ever, pretty dumb of a student to go against what the CFI tells him, but to each his own.
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If we're going to list all the dumb things a person can do, we'll be here for awhile.

Personally, I don't think it's that hard for a person to gauge their own ability to taxi to get fuel. It's going to come out of your pocket, you're responsible. Your decision.
 
Ravioli said:
@PaulS - For the same reason she shouldn't charge me for the time she's on the phone during a ground lesson. And why I don't charge clients for time I'm not working on their project.

My current CFI charges more per hour but isn't a clock watcher. I usually round up to the nearest $20 when I'm paying him.
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I agree with the captive audience part I think you owed her in this case.

PaulS said:
Reminds me of my return to flying a few years ago now. I was with my new instructor, we ended the first lesson, I paid, then I thought of a few more questions. I kept him about another 30 minutes, I noticed he was giving me a weird look every once in a while, but he was very polite and answered every question. I got home and thought about it, then realized he was teaching me and not being paid for it. So next lesson, I told him that I should've asked my questions while he was on the clock last time. I said that it would probably happen again and I understand this is his living, I didn't want him working for free, so I told him to add the extra time to the next lesson when I do that. It happened a few more times and I paid him for it, everyone was happy.
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Mentioned here before I never paid a penny for ground when I did my PPL. Told me what to study before hand we talked in the air and sometimes on the ground I only ever paid for hobbs time. Those were the days.
 
Salty said:
If we're going to list all the dumb things a person can do, we'll be here for awhile.
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That's my point, student asks cfi, "Can I taxi to get my gas solo?" Cfi says "no". Student says "is there an FAR against that?" Cfi says, "I don't know, answer is still no". So the student goes to internet looking for reasons to say Cfi is wrong about the rules, even though the Cfi said he didn't know any rules against it.

Probably would have been better for the student to ask, "What will it take so I can taxi my airplane to the pumps and back with out you here?"
 
PaulS said:
That's my point, student asks cfi, "Can I taxi to get my gas solo?" Cfi says "no". Student says "is there an FAR against that?" Cfi says, "I don't know, answer is still no". So the student goes to internet looking for reasons to say Cfi is wrong about the rules, even though the Cfi said he didn't know any rules against it.

Probably would have been better for the student to ask, "What will it take so I can taxi my airplane to the pumps and back with out you here?"
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The OP asks if it's legal. Then says his CFI says no. This is not what you are describing, which is the only reason we aren't agreeing.
 
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