Use house ground for refueling?

FastEddieB

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Fast Eddie B
I’m looking for a way to ground aircraft while refueling at our TN “pole barn”.

Is it appropriate to just run a wire from a receptacle’s ground wire in the house, or is it better to drive a ground rod into the ground and wire to that? Neither is that difficult, but just thought I’d ask.

Thanks.
 
Are you simply using cans to refuel? I’d lean toward a ground rod and a heavy (#8 or better) ground wire. If you’re using some pump connected to the “pole barn” system, then you want to use it’s ground. Again, I’d lean to something heavier than a #14 or #12. Just gut feel for ground potential.
 
I should have clarified - fueling from plastic cans into mostly my Sky Arrow’s fiberglas tank.

I had an impromptu ground wire/clamp setup just using a short length of rebar, but managed to barely snag it while mowing the other day...

48923109688_9d3eae40f9.jpg


My thought now is to buy an extension cord reel and just bond the 3 wires together. A lot cheaper than a dedicated ground wire reel, which seem to run $200 minimum.
 
My thought now is to buy an extension cord reel and just bond the 3 wires together. A lot cheaper than a dedicated ground wire reel, which seem to run $200 minimum.

Yep, in fact, Jay Honeck did exactly that when he built his little pickup truck fueler a bunch of years back.

You're going to need to be real careful with plastic to plastic transfers like that.
 
I’m confused what you are grounding when fueling from plastic cans.
 
I'll second "bonding" vs grounding. voltage potential difference between the fuel source and the tank is the problem.....not grounding. If both are grounded that will zero the voltage potential. Or if both are bonded....or electrically connected....that also zero's the voltage potential.
 
fueling from plastic cans into mostly my Sky Arrow’s fiberglas tank.
What would grounding the aircraft accomplish?

You want two things - 1) having the can and the airframe at the same electrical potential when you start - setting the cans on the ground and a ground rod nearby would be the best you could hope for with plastic cans. 2) keeping the airframe and can at the same potential to avoid buildup of static while you pour. Not much you can do in this case.

I use metal cans and have a wire attached to the can that I can clip on the airframe.

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/eagle-safety-gas-can-5-gal?cm_vc=-10005
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002YWNL...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=
 
I’m looking for a way to ground aircraft while refueling at our TN “pole barn”.

Is it appropriate to just run a wire from a receptacle’s ground wire in the house, or is it better to drive a ground rod into the ground and wire to that? Neither is that difficult, but just thought I’d ask.

Thanks.

The receptacle thing has more ‘parts’ so more things to go wrong. It’s relying on the receptacle being grounded. There will be some combination of crimps, wire nuts, screws and other gadgets involved. If the chain of connections from the receptacle’s ground terminal to the house’s ground gets interrupted you aren’t grounded anymore.

EDIT: FWIW. As said above it’s about the bonding between the plane and the gas can.
 
Last edited:
I should have clarified - fueling from plastic cans into mostly my Sky Arrow’s fiberglas tank.

I had an impromptu ground wire/clamp setup just using a short length of rebar, but managed to barely snag it while mowing the other day...

48923109688_9d3eae40f9.jpg


My thought now is to buy an extension cord reel and just bond the 3 wires together. A lot cheaper than a dedicated ground wire reel, which seem to run $200 minimum.
I saw what I think was a joke a few years ago, but it may have been a real Craigslist ad:
something to the effect of "For Sale; Cheap. Snapper riding mower. Also, 1000 feet of electrical wire. Must take both"
 
What would grounding the aircraft accomplish?

You want two things - 1) having the can and the airframe at the same electrical potential when you start - setting the cans on the ground and a ground rod nearby would be the best you could hope for with plastic cans. 2) keeping the airframe and can at the same potential to avoid buildup of static while you pour. Not much you can do in this case.

I use metal cans and have a wire attached to the can that I can clip on the airframe.

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/eagle-safety-gas-can-5-gal?cm_vc=-10005
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002YWNL...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

Won’t you touching the can and the plane at the same time accomplish this?
 
The are lots of FBOs using plastic containers of carts for fueling a de-fuel aircraft. An examinatiin of the grounding used will aid you.
 
I'll second "bonding" vs grounding. voltage potential difference between the fuel source and the tank is the problem.....not grounding. If both are grounded that will zero the voltage potential. Or if both are bonded....or electrically connected....that also zero's the voltage potential.


Agreed.

After all, when an airport fuel truck rolls up to refuel your plane, they don’t drive a ground rod through the pavement. They just connect a wire between the plane and the truck.

Wouldn’t the simplest thing be to have Karen do the fueling while you stand a safe distance away? ;)
 
yes....but, don't let go while pouring. The movement of fuel causes the voltage potential buildup.

Yeah. It’s definitely not a good substitute for grounding. This got me to thinking about grounding yourself when installing ‘chips’ in computers. There used to be, maybe still are those wristbands with an alligator clip that you clip to the chassis of the computer to keep from ‘static zapping’ the chip when you plug it in. I remember being told to touch the plane before touching the nozzle to the tank when refueling.
 
I’ve had an interest in static electricity and aircraft fueling for many years and have done a fair bit of research about it. For remote fueling I use plastic jugs but not their spouts. I pour fuel from the open top into a conductive funnel. The funnel is bonded to metal tanks. Static potential is managed as best I can and any sparks would happen above wing in open air where a combustable vapor concentration is highly unlikely. I have a tractor funnel with a chamois and several Mr Funnels. They do the job well.
 
I should have clarified - fueling from plastic cans into mostly my Sky Arrow’s fiberglas tank.

I had an impromptu ground wire/clamp setup just using a short length of rebar, but managed to barely snag it while mowing the other day...

48923109688_9d3eae40f9.jpg


My thought now is to buy an extension cord reel and just bond the 3 wires together. A lot cheaper than a dedicated ground wire reel, which seem to run $200 minimum.

Hmmm, that looks prettying thoroughly snagged to me.
 
Here's one of my funnels with a filler neck adapter that makes the funnel sit still while fueling.


547950CF-0443-44B2-AEB4-9CDCF93B9CC9.jpeg
 
Are you saying it accomplishes nothing?


"Grounding" the plane in terms of tying it to earth via a ground rod does nothing if the fuel source is not also grounded. Airport fuel trucks are not tied to a ground rod, as I mentioned above. What matters is the electrical difference between the plane and the fuel jug. Pouring fuel can generate static electricity, and hence a spark and ignition.

Now, if the plane is grounded and you're holding the jug and you are making good contact with the earth, everything should be at the same potential. But how well you're grounded (shoes, clothing, the patch of earth you're on (or are you on concrete?), etc., could make that questionable.

It might be sufficient to wear a wrist strap and clip the wire to the plane while pouring fuel.

It's hard for me to say how big the risk really is. People fuel cars, tractors, lawnmowers, etc. from hand-held fuel jugs all the time without bothering about it and without a problem.

Several years ago, though, I watched a guy at a gas station try to fill up a fuel jug in the back of his pickup truck, instead of removing it and setting it on the ground. There must have been a spark, because there was a tremendous "WOOOOF!" and an impressive blaze. Somebody grabbed an extinguisher and got it out pretty quickly.
 
Look into using a hand pump and beer kegs, they work much better, they are stainless and each hold 15.5 gal. Which makes their capacity high while also being small enough to move around manually.
 
It's hard for me to say how big the risk really is. People fuel cars, tractors, lawnmowers, etc. from hand-held fuel jugs all the time without bothering about it and without a problem.

Several years ago, though, I watched a guy at a gas station try to fill up a fuel jug in the back of his pickup truck, instead of removing it and setting it on the ground. There must have been a spark, because there was a tremendous "WOOOOF!" and an impressive blaze. Somebody grabbed an extinguisher and got it out pretty quickly.

When I was a teenager, one of the clubs at our field burned a wing off their Taifun 17E Motorglider. Our club owned an in-ground fuel tank but they had decided that we were 'too expensive'. Instead they would 'save money' by fueling it from a hand-drawn truck with a couple of jerry-cans and an electrical pump....
 
Fun fact, I used to deliver fuel 10,000 gallons of diesel or 12,000 gallons of gas at a time and never used a grounding wire. Millions of gallons dropped into the tanks with out a spark or a fire .
 
I'm sorry but this is just too funny..!!!



....because I have done the same thing.

Mine was a carpet. Yup, there was this piece of carpet on the patio. I figured I'd just ride right over it. Just another Rectal Cranial Inversion. Stopped the engine like right now.
 
Fun fact, I used to deliver fuel 10,000 gallons of diesel or 12,000 gallons of gas at a time and never used a grounding wire. Millions of gallons dropped into the tanks with out a spark or a fire .
Just out of curiosity, why were you able do that?
 
Also seeing how many lineguys bond the planes and how they arnt popping off like popcorn, is it good to bond/ground, yes, will I take fuel if I can’t bond/ground, yes
 
Are you saying it accomplishes nothing?
You need to ground the can as well to eliminate any potential difference.
The plane tends to be at groundish through the tires (they have enough carbon in them to conduct high voltage static charges)
The can, well, that depends on what you do before fueling... Lift it out of the bed of your truck with a plastic bed liner? Have it sitting on the ground for a while?
 
The most dangerous fueling is from a plastic can, just FYI.

If you’re going to go this route, the best way to do it is through a grounding wire arrangement that bonds the fuel inside the can. The fuel tank flange and the ground (best if you use a piece of copper on the end of a wire and pushed into the dirt) together. Grounding rods need to be driven 6-8 feet into the ground in order to be effective, any less than that and you won’t be doing much of anything. Many nails are mostly galvanized iron which is a relatively poor conductor compared to copper which is close to 100%, so be sure to use a copper nail or some sort of copper spike that can be hammered into the ground.

Just my 2c
 
Just out of curiosity, why were you able do that?

Probably because it was in the old days, when automobile seatbelts never got used, there was no such thing as bike helmets, and people drank tap water. Stupid old people (me).
 
Fun fact, I used to deliver fuel 10,000 gallons of diesel or 12,000 gallons of gas at a time and never used a grounding wire. Millions of gallons dropped into the tanks with out a spark or a fire .
I suspect it's the same reason we don't need to bond our autos to the fuel pump
when we fill up at the gas station. The hose and nozzle are conductive so when we insert the nozzle into the gas receptacle, we are electrically bonding the fuel pump/station underground tank to our car's gas tank. The tanker truck's hoses all have conductive wires embedded into them and the hose connector and receptacle are metal.
 
Every fuel hose I've had has been conductive. The added safety of car tanks is that bulkhead with the small hole for the pump nozzle. That assures the fumes inside the tank are too rich to ignite. If you want to be really safe with your planes use a rag to stop air exchange at the filler neck. If it can't breathe it can't burn.
 
Mine was a carpet. Yup, there was this piece of carpet on the patio. I figured I'd just ride right over it. Just another Rectal Cranial Inversion. Stopped the engine like right now.

Mine was two runs of expensive direct bury coax running from the ham shack to the rooftop tower on the garage. Guess what hadn’t gotten buried yet... LOL

Even more fun, the brakes on that particular mower don’t work, so when it died after wrapping coax around the spindles it started rolling backward down the hill. Which normally is fine. But now it’s attached to coax that is going to try to pull the roof top tower off the garage.

I turned the steering and jack knifed it sideways as the coax anchor under the eaves went taught. Annnnnd it held. We stopped.

Then I cussed a lot and walked to the garage to get something to cut expensive coax with. LOL.
 
Mine was two runs of expensive direct bury coax running from the ham shack to the rooftop tower on the garage. Guess what hadn’t gotten buried yet... LOL

Even more fun, the brakes on that particular mower don’t work, so when it died after wrapping coax around the spindles it started rolling backward down the hill. Which normally is fine. But now it’s attached to coax that is going to try to pull the roof top tower off the garage.

I turned the steering and jack knifed it sideways as the coax anchor under the eaves went taught. Annnnnd it held. We stopped.

Then I cussed a lot and walked to the garage to get something to cut expensive coax with. LOL.

It is a comfort to know that I am not alone in this kind of activity.
 
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