All women Deltra crew flies 120 girls to NASA HQ

[jonvcaples]

James331 you are correct that there are much worse places than the USA. I lived in Amman, Jordan for the better part of a year while working for one of their charter airlines as their lead aircraft performance engineer. Most (95%+) of the folks we (wife joined me for last month) met were gracious, friendly, welcoming, and curious about events in the USA. Another pleasant surprise was how many of the people we met had lived in the US, and still had family in the states, but returned to Jordan because their parents were ill.

Having said that there were a few we learned to avoid. Several taxi drivers were openly hostile and one refused to drive us. Most of the people at work were wonderful and eager to teach us about their customs and courtesies...in fact one of my closest allies was Iranian (head of the B737 program)!

We were delighted by how many people took us under wing. Even the bag boys at the supermarket used to try to be the ones to help us which was partly due to their wanting to practice their English and because we always asked about their family and school.

We as a nation have come a long way and still need to keep making progress. We can and must continue to improve.

Everybody have a great day! Redbird Migration starts today at KAPA looking forward to learning more about using Aviation Training Devices (ATDs).

 

[tspear]

I was recently diagnosed with stage IV cancer so each day is a precious gift to be savored and a fleeting opportunity to encourage each of us to be our best. Please be encouraged and enabled to be your best.

Wag more, bark less, and never bite first...

That sucks. Good luck, and stay positive.

Tim

 

[bflynn]

Nice story. I like Deltra.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Jon...I'm prayerful that you will be healed. If not, we have a gracious God who lovingly redeems us. Hope to see you one day on the other side.

 

[Everskyward]

No disagreement on that. Men are equally prone to this. It's not a gendered thing. All that means is exactly what's happening: areas where there are serious gender skews need outreach to pull in those who haven't learned that skill yet. There's no point in having an outreach to the male in flying, since no male would ever look around his fellow pilots and feel like he doesn't belong due to gender. Having or not having that skill would make no difference to their ability to move forward. It does make a difference to a woman, despite it not having any impact on her ability to fly. Should there be outreach for similarly skewed professions the other way? Nursing is skewed that way about the same (92% female). And yeah, there should be outreach to men over nursing.

I'm not sure that "being your own person" equates to being in a group of 120 in a national news story. But then, part of being your own person, for me, meant that I was not much of a joiner of large groups. I have mixed feelings about outreach. In societies where children, or other people, are not aware of opportunities available to them, it's a good thing. But this is the United States in 2019. I'm not sure there are many girls who are not aware that they can be pilots or boys that are not aware that they can be nurses. However, when groups of people are given attention and publicity in lieu of other groups, I can see when that might cause jealousy or resentment that they are not able to participate in that activity. Yes it happens in both directions, which is why I am an advocate of equal opportunity but not active social engineering.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I'm not sure that "being your own person" equates to being in a group of 120 in a national news story. But then, part of being your own person, for me, meant that I was not much of a joiner of large groups. I have mixed feelings about outreach. In societies where children, or other people, are not aware of opportunities available to them, it's a good thing. But this is the United States in 2019. I'm not sure there are many girls who are not aware that they can be pilots or boys that are not aware that they can be nurses. However, when groups of people are given attention and publicity in lieu of other groups, I can see when that might cause jealousy or resentment that they are not able to participate in that activity. Yes it happens in both directions, which is why I am an advocate of equal opportunity but not active social engineering.

this conversation is headed towards a discussion about the difference between equal opportunity and equal outcome.

 

[kath]

Read the thread again, Kath. There is no hostility, at all, towards women in this thread. Everyone...has expressed support for women in aviation

The purpose of the Delta outreach program was to support women in aviation. So the posts decrying it and renouncing it, and saying that women have too many advantages already and should have that support removed... That's... well, it's whatever the opposite of "supporting women in aviation" is.

Of course I read the thread. I read the multiple wisecracks about women and women pilots -- their driving, their "drama", their looks -- (some accompanied by a "jokey" emoticon of some sort, but most of them not). There was the random tampon joke in the middle of the thread for some reason, that I didn't get, and whose only purpose that I can fathom was to make women uncomfortable. (Thankfully, it seems to have now been removed.) Once things got more serious, there was a post equating the outreach program (by some unfathomable leap of logic) to lowering standards and putting underqualified pilots in the cockpit, which is insulting if you think about it. And Sundancer's dismissive STFU post was a real kick in the teeth for me on multiple levels I won't begin to describe. And that was just through page two.

If you think the tone wasn't *intended* to be hostile, I will take you at your word. But the general tone of most posts has been a combination of "Your problems aren't really there" (implying that it's somehow all in our heads, or that we lie) and "If you want to succeed in this field, just be awesome, like the rest of us -- Man up!" (not helpful) and "Women aren't here because they just don't want it bad enough" (which has historically been used as an excuse for all kinds of injustice) and all the way to "Victim, wah wah" (dismissive). Claiming to be "supportive and inviting" now, is laughable.

...But don't you worry your pretty little head about *me*. Like @Everskyward, I've got thick skin and can take it, and I already fly. I've stayed on this thread, even though it makes me want to barf. For the sake of those who are coming up next, looking around at their options, and wondering what kind of BS they'll have to put up with from their community. I'll keep trying to make the aviation option a more welcoming one for women and girls. If the needle moves from 5% to 10%, you likely won't notice or care at all. But I will. Let me try. Consider helping; I've got a few ideas about how.

 

[Lindberg]

Six pilots?

 

[Velocity173]

Six pilots?

Five pilots. I think that’s actress Melissa McCarthy on the far left.

 

[tspear]

I'll keep trying to make the aviation option a more welcoming one for women and girls. If the needle moves from 5% to 10%, you likely won't notice or care at all. But I will. Let me try. Consider helping; I've got a few ideas about how.

How? I have discussed trying to find ways to get more people into aviation with my wife and kids. So far, none of us have had what any of us consider a "good" idea.

Tim

 

[JOhnH]

@kath Please don't give up on us. You are an inspiration, not only to women but to a bunch of us men too.

@Everskyward while we seem to have different opinions on this, your perspective is enlightening to me and may cause me to alter (to some extent) my position. But while I might agree that such programs may not be necessary, I am firmly convinced that they are not a bad thing.

Now, if it were the government paying for this with tax dollars, or if they were actually lowering standards to accommodate women, then I would be responding to these posts differently.

 

[mryan75]

the problem with that is the "optics" weren't all that great.....

According to who, exactly?

 

[mryan75]

So if it had been for boys only would you say the girls had not been deprived of any opportunity?

If gender discrimination is wrong we should stop doing it.

Period.

Rationalizing that new injustices are necessary because of prior injustices is baloney. Those who choose to discriminate always seem to have some "greater good" excuse.

Per the statistics, aviation basically is for boys only. Can 4% of people discriminate against the other 96%?

 

[mryan75]

If you don't think racism, bigotry and sexism are not only alive, but prevalent in this country you are absolutely, completely and totally flipping clueless. Truly.

 

[JOhnH]

If you don't think racism, bigotry and sexism are not only alive, but prevalent in this country you are absolutely, completely and totally flipping clueless. Truly.

Agreed. The fact that those things are not nearly as bad or as accepted as they used to be does not mitigate the fact that they still exist.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

According to who, exactly?

Not very exciting.... Indonesian wimen would be more interesting.....

 

[Tarheelpilot]

The purpose of the Delta outreach program was to support women in aviation. So the posts decrying it and renouncing it, and saying that women have too many advantages already and should have that support removed... That's... well, it's whatever the opposite of "supporting women in aviation" is.

Of course I read the thread. I read the multiple wisecracks about women and women pilots -- their driving, their "drama", their looks -- (some accompanied by a "jokey" emoticon of some sort, but most of them not). There was the random tampon joke in the middle of the thread for some reason, that I didn't get, and whose only purpose that I can fathom was to make women uncomfortable. (Thankfully, it seems to have now been removed.) Once things got more serious, there was a post equating the outreach program (by some unfathomable leap of logic) to lowering standards and putting underqualified pilots in the cockpit, which is insulting if you think about it. And Sundancer's dismissive STFU post was a real kick in the teeth for me on multiple levels I won't begin to describe. And that was just through page two.

If you think the tone wasn't *intended* to be hostile, I will take you at your word. But the general tone of most posts has been a combination of "Your problems aren't really there" (implying that it's somehow all in our heads, or that we lie) and "If you want to succeed in this field, just be awesome, like the rest of us -- Man up!" (not helpful) and "Women aren't here because they just don't want it bad enough" (which has historically been used as an excuse for all kinds of injustice) and all the way to "Victim, wah wah" (dismissive). Claiming to be "supportive and inviting" now, is laughable.

...But don't you worry your pretty little head about *me*. Like @Everskyward, I've got thick skin and can take it, and I already fly. I've stayed on this thread, even though it makes me want to barf. For the sake of those who are coming up next, looking around at their options, and wondering what kind of BS they'll have to put up with from their community. I'll keep trying to make the aviation option a more welcoming one for women and girls. If the needle moves from 5% to 10%, you likely won't notice or care at all. But I will. Let me try. Consider helping; I've got a few ideas about how.

If you were referring to my post regarding unqualified people in the cockpit you need to understand that I was not drawing and connection between unqualified pilots and the delta outreach flight.

There should be nothing offensive about my post. I don’t mind out reach of any kind for anyone. I don’t like lowered standards. Just a statement about my overall position on this general topic. Not connecting deltas PR program to lowing standards.

IF you were referring to my post you made a pretty big leap in the wrong direction about what I was saying.

IF you were not referring to my post, my apologies for misunderstanding.

 

[Sundancer]

The purpose of the Delta outreach program was to support women in aviation. So the posts decrying it and renouncing it, and saying that women have too many advantages already and should have that support removed... That's... well, it's whatever the opposite of "supporting women in aviation" is.

Of course I read the thread. I read the multiple wisecracks about women and women pilots -- their driving, their "drama", their looks -- (some accompanied by a "jokey" emoticon of some sort, but most of them not). There was the random tampon joke in the middle of the thread for some reason, that I didn't get, and whose only purpose that I can fathom was to make women uncomfortable. (Thankfully, it seems to have now been removed.) Once things got more serious, there was a post equating the outreach program (by some unfathomable leap of logic) to lowering standards and putting underqualified pilots in the cockpit, which is insulting if you think about it. And Sundancer's dismissive STFU post was a real kick in the teeth for me on multiple levels I won't begin to describe. And that was just through page two.

If you think the tone wasn't *intended* to be hostile, I will take you at your word. But the general tone of most posts has been a combination of "Your problems aren't really there" (implying that it's somehow all in our heads, or that we lie) and "If you want to succeed in this field, just be awesome, like the rest of us -- Man up!" (not helpful) and "Women aren't here because they just don't want it bad enough" (which has historically been used as an excuse for all kinds of injustice) and all the way to "Victim, wah wah" (dismissive). Claiming to be "supportive and inviting" now, is laughable.

...But don't you worry your pretty little head about *me*. Like @Everskyward, I've got thick skin and can take it, and I already fly. I've stayed on this thread, even though it makes me want to barf. For the sake of those who are coming up next, looking around at their options, and wondering what kind of BS they'll have to put up with from their community. I'll keep trying to make the aviation option a more welcoming one for women and girls. If the needle moves from 5% to 10%, you likely won't notice or care at all. But I will. Let me try. Consider helping; I've got a few ideas about how.

You sound angry, maybe with good reason, if not necessarily in proportion to the actual barriers. If you read me as dismissive, you read me wrong. As I said, twice, of course the barriers are there - my main point was they are not so high as to be insurmontable. I think it's human nature to exaggerate the impact of obstacles, for those facing them. And I admit, likewise to underestimate them by folks not impacted by them. My subjective opinion is a woman can enter flight training, can earn the ratings, can be hired, can get to the left seat, can be respected, unlike the reality decades back. I think it's probably somewhat more difficult for a woman, and there will be sexist buffoons the deal with. But it is doable.

 

[James331]

I will say I’d wager if I was a woman, especially a minority woman, I’d probably be further ahead in my career right now for having done the same work.

And god forbid you have a kid and breakup with the mother, shy of her becoming a crack head axe murderer, she’ll end up with the kids and a good chunk of your paycheck no matter what.

I could go on.

People are all about getting handouts under the flag of making things “equal”, till it’s time to do “equal” type stuff, oh you were given a bunch of leg ups to be a chick firefighter, what do you mean you can’t carry your partner and meet the other requirements of the job?
Or we’ll the father makes more money than you, has better character witnesses, he’s getting custody and you’re cutting him a check every month.

But it’s not really about being “equal” is it.

If you stand on your sex/color/sexuality/religion well, you suck at life and are asking for what amounts to self pity welfare.

 

[Velocity173]

I will say I’d wager if I was a woman, especially a minority woman, I’d probably be further ahead in my career right now for having done the same work.

And god forbid you have a kid and breakup with the mother, shy of her becoming a crack head axe murderer, she’ll end up with the kids and a good chunk of your paycheck no matter what.

I could go on.

People are all about getting handouts under the flag of making things “equal”, till it’s time to do “equal” type stuff, oh you were given a bunch of leg ups to be a chick firefighter, what do you mean you can’t carry your partner and meet the other requirements of the job?
Or we’ll the father makes more money than you, has better character witnesses, he’s getting custody and you’re cutting him a check every month.

But it’s not really about being “equal” is it.

If you stand on your sex/color/sexuality/religion well, you suck at life and are asking for what amounts to self pity welfare.

During my last deployment we had a female warrant officer that got pregnant from a married Major. What does the Army do to punish her, they send her to the fixed wing course. On top of that, because she is a single parent and has no “family care plan” she goes to a non deployable unit flying VIPs King Airs.

That’s the reality of this so called sexism that women face in the military. We bend over backwards to give them preferential treatment, while all along they scream for equality. Equality my ***. And yes, I too could go on.

 

[mryan75]

During my last deployment we had a female warrant officer that got pregnant from a married Major. What does the Army do to punish her, they send her to the fixed wing course. On top of that, because she is a single parent and has no “family care plan” she goes to a non deplorable unit flying VIPs King Airs.

That’s the reality of this so called sexism that women face in the military. We bend over backwards to give them preferential treatment, while all along they scream for equality. Equality my ***. And yes, I too could go on.

At least they sent her to a non-deplorable unit.

 

[Velocity173]

At least they sent her to a non-deplorable unit.

Yeah, I guess my phone doesn’t recognize deployable as an actual word.

 

[James331]

Yeah, I guess my phone doesn’t recognize deployable as an actual word.

Apple?

Lots of fit and finish on the iphones and iOS, but the spellcheck SUCKS

 

[Velocity173]

Apple?

Lots of fit and finish on the iphones and iOS, but the spellcheck SUCKS

Yep.

 

[arnoha]

During my last deployment we had a female warrant officer that got pregnant from a married Major. What does the Army do to punish her, they send her to the fixed wing course. On top of that, because she is a single parent and has no “family care plan” she goes to a non deployable unit flying VIPs King Airs.

That’s the reality of this so called sexism that women face in the military. We bend over backwards to give them preferential treatment, while all along they scream for equality. Equality my ***. And yes, I too could go on.

The story doesn't work unless you also include what happened to the Major. If the Major was drummed out of the service and the warrant officer coddled, maybe I'll buy that. But even then: the Major is in the position of power. The consequences for the Major should be severe. You can't mention equality, then not give what we're trying to be equal to.

 

[Velocity173]

The story doesn't work unless you also include what happened to the Major. If the Major was drummed out of the service and the warrant officer coddled, maybe I'll buy that. But even then: the Major is in the position of power. The consequences for the Major should be severe. You can't mention equality, then not give what we're trying to be equal to.

No idea what happened to the Major or even if she dimed him out as the father. Both should’ve been punished but my point was a woman violating not just policy but getting pregnant while downrange. Then, she was offered a cush assignment with non deployable status. But we could just bypass that whole story and go into the unusual number of females that get pregnant just before deployment.

 

[mryan75]

Apple?

Lots of fit and finish on the iphones and iOS, but the spellcheck SUCKS

The predictive text on my Nokia's with a 0-9 phone keypad from the early 2000's were miles and miles and miles better than the iPhone of 2019 and its full qwerty keyboard. It's not even close.

 

[arnoha]

I'm not sure that "being your own person" equates to being in a group of 120 in a national news story. But then, part of being your own person, for me, meant that I was not much of a joiner of large groups. I have mixed feelings about outreach. In societies where children, or other people, are not aware of opportunities available to them, it's a good thing. But this is the United States in 2019. I'm not sure there are many girls who are not aware that they can be pilots or boys that are not aware that they can be nurses. However, when groups of people are given attention and publicity in lieu of other groups, I can see when that might cause jealousy or resentment that they are not able to participate in that activity. Yes it happens in both directions, which is why I am an advocate of equal opportunity but not active social engineering.

Ah apologies, I wasn't trying to equate this with a method of directly teaching independence of thought. It isn't. Instead, it's a gateway: pull them in so that the environment is shifted. Those other parts come later.

On this we'll probably have to just disagree: I can't see how to level the playing field without some social engineering. People are...well, people. We're not logical, reasonable. We write beautiful rules about equality and then instantly contradict them with a 3/5. We not going to get it right every time and the pendulum will swing too far sometimes. But, damn, we have to try, right? Learn, then try again. It appears to be working. Everyone seems to agree that 2019 is better than it's been. Something made that happen.

Almost by definition, any woman on POA is going to be someone who has successfully navigated the current state of the system for flying. You're unusual, exceptional, in more ways than one. Actually: specifically two ways. First, you have a passion for flying. Second, you have the wherewithal to swim these currents. My argument is that only the first should be a prerequisite.

I don't mean to pick on you. I actually selected your post to respond to because it was grounded and well-reasoned. There's a discussion to be had. Some of the others...I think I'd end up in a shouting match. I'm either avoiding a poor outcome or just being a coward. Not sure which.

this conversation is headed towards a discussion about the difference between equal opportunity and equal outcome.

You're the only one who's brought that up. No one has said that and I deliberately countermanded it in my first post. No one has said everyone is made the same and no one has said that gender plays no part in life's decisions. Put the straw man away.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Ah apologies, I wasn't trying to equate this with a method of directly teaching independence of thought. It isn't. Instead, it's a gateway: pull them in so that the environment is shifted. Those other parts come later.

On this we'll probably have to just disagree: I can't see how to level the playing field without some social engineering. People are...well, people. We're not logical, reasonable. We write beautiful rules about equality and then instantly contradict them with a 3/5. We not going to get it right every time and the pendulum will swing too far sometimes. But, damn, we have to try, right? Learn, then try again. It appears to be working. Everyone seems to agree that 2019 is better than it's been. Something made that happen.

Almost by definition, any woman on POA is going to be someone who has successfully navigated the current state of the system for flying. You're unusual, exceptional, in more ways than one. Actually: specifically two ways. First, you have a passion for flying. Second, you have the wherewithal to swim these currents. My argument is that only the first should be a prerequisite.

I don't mean to pick on you. I actually selected your post to respond to because it was grounded and well-reasoned. There's a discussion to be had. Some of the others...I think I'd end up in a shouting match. I'm either avoiding a poor outcome or just being a coward. Not sure which.



You're the only one who's brought that up. No one has said that and I deliberately countermanded it in my first post. No one has said everyone is made the same and no one has said that gender plays no part in life's decisions. Put the straw man away.

It’s not a straw man. It’s merely an observation and not one specifically directed at your posts but the conversation as a whole. So relax.

 

[mryan75]

No idea what happened to the Major or even if she dimed him out as the father. Both should’ve been punished but my point was a woman violating not just policy but getting pregnant while downrange. Then, she was offered a cush assignment with non deployable status. But we could just bypass that whole story and go into the unusual number of females that get pregnant just before deployment.

I must say that I do find it noteworthy that what happened to the woman is known and considered an outrage, yet what happened to the man doesn't seem to be of any concern.

 

[tspear]

I will say I’d wager if I was a woman, especially a minority woman, I’d probably be further ahead in my career right now for having done the same work.

And god forbid you have a kid and breakup with the mother, shy of her becoming a crack head axe murderer, she’ll end up with the kids and a good chunk of your paycheck no matter what.

I could go on.

People are all about getting handouts under the flag of making things “equal”, till it’s time to do “equal” type stuff, oh you were given a bunch of leg ups to be a chick firefighter, what do you mean you can’t carry your partner and meet the other requirements of the job?
Or we’ll the father makes more money than you, has better character witnesses, he’s getting custody and you’re cutting him a check every month.

But it’s not really about being “equal” is it.

If you stand on your sex/color/sexuality/religion well, you suck at life and are asking for what amounts to self pity welfare.

James,

Then your career is the exception not the rule.
But regardless of the but hurt you think you are feeling; what does this have to do with the article I posted?

Tim

 

[Velocity173]

I must say that I do find it noteworthy that what happened to the woman is known and considered an outrage, yet what happened to the man doesn't seem to be of any concern.

Nothing probably happened to him as far as I know. My point wasn’t to say he was punished and she wasn’t. My point was to show how the military bends over backwards to accommodate women’s needs. Men don’t have the luxury of avoiding deployment and costing the military hundreds of millions.

https://www.libertyheadlines.com/deployed-us-navy-pregnancy-problem-getting-worse/

There’s no outrage to this either. I just laugh when I hear about inequality these days especially when women talk military. Yeah, if there’s any inequality that exists, it’s in their favor.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Per the statistics, aviation basically is for boys only. Can 4% of people discriminate against the other 96%?

Apparently they can.

discriminate:
To make distinctions on the basis of class or category without regard to individual merit, especially to show prejudice on the basis of ethnicity, gender, or a similar social factor.

There’s nothing in that definition that says it depends which side you’re on.

 

[Bacho]

Yeah, if there’s any inequality that exists, it’s in their favor.

We all have different viewpoints and its unlikely one side will ever totally understand the others. As a white male, I agree that in 2019 it seems that my more diverse peers are offered opportunities that I am not. On the other hand, I can agree that those same people are certainly given prejudice by others in areas that I have never been.

In reflecting on Kaths posts, I can totally see what she is talking about. Our hanger has 3 females on the floor each on different shifts. The message that corporate sends out is quite different than the treatment they get on the floor.

 

[mryan75]

Nothing probably happened to him as far as I know. My point wasn’t to say he was punished and she wasn’t. My point was to show how the military bends over backwards to accommodate women’s needs. Men don’t have the luxury of avoiding deployment and costing the military hundreds of millions.

https://www.libertyheadlines.com/deployed-us-navy-pregnancy-problem-getting-worse/

There’s no outrage to this either. I just laugh when I hear about inequality these days especially when women talk military. Yeah, if there’s any inequality that exists, it’s in their favor.

My point was that clearly effort was made to find out the egregious favoritism shown to one party and no similar effort was made to even find out what happened to the other party (the party in the position of power, it might be added). I find that, in and of itself, telling.

 

[Velocity173]

My point was that clearly effort was made to find out the egregious favoritism shown to one party and no similar effort was made to even find out what happened to the other party (the party in the position of power, it might be added). I find that, in and of itself, telling.

No, I made no effort to find out what happened to the woman either. She talked about it freely and physically it was obvious. I didn’t know the guy so I have no clue what happened to him, nor do I care. It’s ironic because our CG at the time was adamant about prosecuting general order number 1 violations.

 

[JohnAJohnson]

When the constitution was signed, slavery could not be abolished but agreements were made to start the process once the nation was created, and that process did start with a ban on new slave imports. Many laws were put in place to work toward the abolishment of slavery in the next half century, up to the 13th and 14th amendments.

Slavery is alive and well in many nations on the planet, including many African countries. Would you had preferred the colonies remain as colonies or territories of other European countries, instead of declaring independence and adopting the best agreement they could at the time?

It's easy to point out the faults and failures of our system (Jim Crow always gets rolled out), but intellectually lazy to ignore the value of the same system that has enriched the lives of so many who were and are willing to embrace the American culture.

 

[Half Fast]

If you don't think racism, bigotry and sexism are not only alive, but prevalent in this country you are absolutely, completely and totally flipping clueless. Truly.

If you'll go back and read my posts you'll see I never wrote that those things don't exist. What I have written several times and in several different ways is that you can't end gender discrimination by doing more of it.

The same ethical and moral arguments apply regardless of which direction the discrimination is going.

 

[Groundpounder]

For every plane load of girls that Delta flies around, there are 10 Quiet Birdmen meetings where neanderthals complain about Delta flying around plane loads of girls.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I like bacon and ribs better than ham.