Cherokee 235 - fixed pitch vs Constant speed?

Johnbo

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Johnbo
I’m not looking to debate the merits of fixed vs CS but rather trying to get seem real world performance figures on these two configuration options on a Cherokee 235.

any one here flown both and can give some feedback on differences in takeoff and cruise?

thx!
 
Both will be better with a adjustable prop :dunno:

Disadvantage, more stuff to break
 
I've not flown a fixed-pitch 235 so I can't speak from first-hand experience. But the manual has separate cruise charts for FP and C/S props, and the fixed-pitch is 2-5 mph faster. As expected, takeoff performance and rate of climb are better with the constant speed prop.

PA-28-235 cruise perf.jpeg
 
I've not flown a fixed-pitch 235 so I can't speak from first-hand experience. But the manual has separate cruise charts for FP and C/S props, and the fixed-pitch is 2-5 mph faster. As expected, takeoff performance and rate of climb are better with the constant speed prop.

View attachment 78427

That don’t pass the logic check. I’m sure it must be true. Can you think of any reason why?
 
That don’t pass the logic check. I’m sure it must be true. Can you think of any reason why?
This is only a guess. The only thing I can think of is that in the inner portion near the hub, the blades of most constant speed props transition in cross-section from an airfoil to a cylinder. So for the inner few inches it has the aerodynamic efficiency of a tree stump; while the blades of a fixed-pitch prop can still have some efficiency down close to the hub.

constant speed prop.jpg 2-blade-fixed-pitch-propeller.jpg

So while a fixed-pitch prop can't generate full rpm in takeoff and climb like a constant-speed prop, the fixed-pitch prop is marginally more efficient at a given rpm in cruise.

Just a guess. ;)

pa-32-260 perf.jpeg
 
This is only a guess. The only thing I can think of is that in the inner portion near the hub, the blades of most constant speed props transition in cross-section from an airfoil to a cylinder. So for the inner few inches it has the aerodynamic efficiency of a tree stump; while the blades of a fixed-pitch prop can still have some efficiency down close to the hub.

View attachment 78436 View attachment 78437

So while a fixed-pitch prop can't generate full rpm in takeoff and climb like a constant-speed prop, the fixed-pitch prop is marginally more efficient at a given rpm in cruise.

Just a guess. ;)

View attachment 78435

A good guess at that. I learned as a graduate student that if you're stumped in an oral exam, answer with "I don't know, but I think...." I like to shock students by asking, "Why are manhole covers round?"
 
Thx folks. I agree that it seems a bit odd to have a fixed pitch in this plane but they are in the mix with the Ones listed for sale.

so it seems cruise is similar implying a cruise prop is used so what do we give up on climb out and short field?
 
Where are you located? We have a 235 with a fixed pitch prop. I can’t speak to how it compares to one with a CS prop, but if you’re close to me I’d be glad to show your ours.
 
A fixed pitch may be faster than a constant speed but that is usually because you are spinning it faster at cruise than a constant speed. The engine makes more HP he faster you spin it. The manuals usually quote cruise speeds at a specific RPM. Run the constant speed up to the same RPM as the fixed pitch and the speeds should be the same given similar designs.
 
A fixed pitch may be faster than a constant speed but that is usually because you are spinning it faster at cruise than a constant speed. The engine makes more HP he faster you spin it. The manuals usually quote cruise speeds at a specific RPM. Run the constant speed up to the same RPM as the fixed pitch and the speeds should be the same given similar designs.
Look at the PA-28-235 performance charts in Post #3 above. They are expressed in TAS vs. % of rated power, and the fixed-pitch is faster across the board. As for the PA-32-260, the performance chart just says “True airspeed at full throttle with a constant-speed prop is 2 mph less.”

I have a manifold pressure gauge in my fixed-pitch 180 hp 172N. It would be interesting to compare speeds at the same mp/rpm combinations against a Penn Yan 180 hp mod with a c/s prop.
 
It does not state what RPM either prop is at. Many fixed pitched props are set up to run 2700 RPM at cruise at 8500 feet with full throttle. Most CS props published speeds ar at 2400 RPM with full throttle. Run the prop up to 2700 and you will gain speed bot lose efficiency.
 
Where do you live? Do you need short-field performance, and/or do you regularly take off in high DA environments? That might factor highly in the decision.

I went FP with my RV-9A because of low initial price, simplicity, reduced maintenance and lighter weight. My typical destination is a 2500' to 3500' asphalt runway at no more than 1000' MSL, though it does fine at Big Bear and Mammoth, 6000'-plus with DA as high as 10,000' (have to say, Gallup, NM on a 90-degree day at max gross dictated a pretty shallow climb!). If I lived back east and needed to clear trees bracketing a 1500' grass strip, I'd go CS in a heartbeat, but the southwest is very FP-friendly! :)

For me the $4K-$5K I saved buys a considerable amount of 100LL, and maintenance consists of re-torquing the prop bolts at annual.
 
Where do you live? Do you need short-field performance, and/or do you regularly take off in high DA environments? That might factor highly in the decision.

I went FP with my RV-9A because of low initial price, simplicity, reduced maintenance and lighter weight. My typical destination is a 2500' to 3500' asphalt runway at no more than 1000' MSL, though it does fine at Big Bear and Mammoth, 6000'-plus with DA as high as 10,000' (have to say, Gallup, NM on a 90-degree day at max gross dictated a pretty shallow climb!). If I lived back east and needed to clear trees bracketing a 1500' grass strip, I'd go CS in a heartbeat, but the southwest is very FP-friendly! :)

For me the $4K-$5K I saved buys a considerable amount of 100LL, and maintenance consists of re-torquing the prop bolts at annual.

Agreed, but RVs being so tiny and light, have amazing power loading where one can afford to leave 200fpm on the table and 300feet of runway on takeoff by skimping on the shifty prop choice. For a clap trap like a cherokee anything, give me the the C/S prop because I need all the power transfer I can get out of that engine.

I'm still planning on a C/S prop when I get an RV. After suffering from crappy climb rates in certified 4-banger land, I want all the climb rate I can muster! :D
 
A good guess at that. I learned as a graduate student that if you're stumped in an oral exam, answer with "I don't know, but I think...." I like to shock students by asking, "Why are manhole covers round?"

Because they can't fall down the hole since the diameter is greater in length than the opening.
 
Good one, Bryan! Put another way: Because it's the only shape that can't fall through its opening (allowing for the "lip", of course). You're brilliant!

Nah..just worked for AT&T and that was one of the questions on the lineman qualification exam...lol. Came about when an early rectangular cover fell down the hole and took out a worker, and the powers that be in the company tasked the labs to come up with a street cover that was incapable of doing so...;)
 
It does not state what RPM either prop is at. Many fixed pitched props are set up to run 2700 RPM at cruise at 8500 feet with full throttle. Most CS props published speeds ar at 2400 RPM with full throttle. Run the prop up to 2700 and you will gain speed bot lose efficiency.
According to the PA-28-235 manual, at 7,000' density altitude 75% power is 2575 rpm (red line) for the fixed-pitch, and 21.6" (full throttle) and 2400 rpm for the c/s. Same power output for both -- 75%, or 175 hp and 14 gph -- but the fixed-pitch-equipped airplane is going three mph faster.

Another example ... 5,000' density altitude. With the fixed-pitch, 2400 rpm produces 65% power (11.5 gph). For the constant-speed, 20.7" and 2400 rpm produces the same 65% power at the same 11.5 gph. At those settings, the fixed-pitch is going 144 mph, and the c/s 141 mph.
 
Push the CS up to 2575 and you will go the same speed or faster. Lycomings don’t reach max HP until about 3200 RPM. That’s why all the racers and hard core aerobatic competition pilots spin their engines at 3000 or more.
 
Push the CS up to 2575 and you will go the same speed or faster. Lycomings don’t reach max HP until about 3200 RPM. That’s why all the racers and hard core aerobatic competition pilots spin their engines at 3000 or more.
Sure, but then you’re running at a higher hp and higher fuel consumption. Apples to apples, at equal cruise hp being produced, the fp is slightly faster.
 
Not in any aircraft I have matched the RPM’s at. Fuel flow will be about the same also.
 
This gives you a idea of HP verses RPM. Note the one engine with low HP has a reduced compression rating also.

LYCOMING OPERATOR’S MANUAL O-540, IO-540 SERIES
SECTION 2 SPECIFICATIONS
SECTION 2 SPECIFICATIONS O-540-A* SERIES
FAA Type Certificate ....................................................................................................................................295 Rated horsepower...........................................................................................................................................250 Rated speed RPM.........................................................................................................................................2575 Bore, inches.................................................................................................................................................5.125 Stroke, inches..............................................................................................................................................4.375 Displacement, cubic inches.........................................................................................................................541.5 Compression ratio ....................................................................................................................................... 8.5:1 Firing order .......................................................................................................................................1-4-5-2-3-6 Spark occurs, degrees BTC..............................................................................................................................25 Valve rocker clearance (hydraulic tappets collapsed) ......................................................................... .028-.080 Prop. drive ratio ............................................................................................................................................. 1:1 Prop. driven rotation ...........................................................................................................................Clockwise
O-540-B SERIES
FAA Type Certificate ....................................................................................................................................295 Rated horsepower...........................................................................................................................................235 Rated speed RPM.........................................................................................................................................2575 Bore, inches.................................................................................................................................................5.125 Stroke, inches..............................................................................................................................................4.375 Displacement, cubic inches.........................................................................................................................541.5 Compression ratio ....................................................................................................................................... 7.2:1 Firing order .......................................................................................................................................1-4-5-2-3-6 Spark occurs, degrees BTC..............................................................................................................................25 Valve rocker clearance (hydraulic tappets collapsed) ......................................................................... .028-.080 Prop. drive ratio ............................................................................................................................................. 1:1 Prop. driven rotation ...........................................................................................................................Clockwise
O-540-E, -G, -H SEREIS
FAA Type Certificate ....................................................................................................................................295 Rated horsepower...........................................................................................................................................260 Rated speed RPM.........................................................................................................................................2700 Bore, inches.................................................................................................................................................5.125 Stroke, inches..............................................................................................................................................4.375 Displacement, cubic inches.........................................................................................................................541.5 Compression ratio ....................................................................................................................................... 8.5:1 Firing order .......................................................................................................................................1-4-5-2-3-6 Spark occurs, degrees BTC..............................................................................................................................25 Valve rocker clearance (hydraulic tappets collapsed) ......................................................................... .028-.080 Prop. drive ratio ............................................................................................................................................. 1:1 Prop. driven rotation ...........................................................................................................................Clockwise
* - O-540-A series engines (except –A3D5) has an alternate rating of 235 horsepower at 2400 RPM.
 
This gives you a idea of HP verses RPM. Note the one engine with low HP has a reduced compression rating also.

LYCOMING OPERATOR’S MANUAL O-540, IO-540 SERIES
SECTION 2 SPECIFICATIONS
SECTION 2 SPECIFICATIONS O-540-A* SERIES
I understand completely what you're saying. I simply think we're talking about different concepts and different applications of those concepts. Unless you contend that these performance charts from the Cherokee 235 manual are wrong, we have no disagreement. If you do think they are wrong, how so?

-1.jpg
 
Thread drift and late, but the ovalized triangle shape seen in Wankel engines has the same features of not falling through the hole. Admittedly, much easier to make round manholes.

The name of that shape is epitrochoid. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epitrochoid
Actually, epitrochoid describes the shape of the combustion chamber which is the path that the rotor tips take around the crankshaft. The ovalized triangle associated with Wankel engines is actually the rotor, whose shape is a variant of a Reuleaux triangle.

And since a Reuleaux triangle is formed by the intersection of 3 circles, one could argue that it itself is "round" if one were sufficiently argumentative. :)
 
I like to shock students by asking, "Why are manhole covers round?"
Because it's the only shape that can't fall through its opening (allowing for the "lip", of course).
Silly me. My answer to the question "Why are manhole covers round?" would have been, "Because the manholes are round!" o_O
 
Actually, epitrochoid describes the shape of the combustion chamber which is the path that the rotor tips take around the crankshaft. The ovalized triangle associated with Wankel engines is actually the rotor, whose shape is a variant of a Reuleaux triangle.

And since a Reuleaux triangle is formed by the intersection of 3 circles, one could argue that it itself is "round" if one were sufficiently argumentative. :)

Sweet! I love this forum because of this kind of solid, technical, well-presented knowledge! Thanks, asicer!
 
Silly me. My answer to the question "Why are manhole covers round?" would have been, "Because the manholes are round!" o_O
I prefer "because an augur that drills triangular holes are darned expensive". :)
 
No one in their right mind would want a fixed pitch prop in a 235.

Call me crazy then.

I am resurrecting this old thread just to comment on my 20+ years of experience with my fixed-pitch 235. Constant speed props were an option for the Cherokee 235 through the 60's.

For us flatlanders (Michigan here), I think the 235 with a fixed-pitch prop does the job well. I will state that I would have preferred to have a CS prop, but we found this plane for sale in 1998 it met our mission requirements at the right price, and I can't say I have any regrets. The plane has more than adequate climb performance for midwest airports, and simplicity of operation and maintenance plus greater useful load are all positives. I have not once ever needed more climb performance... but it sure takes a LONG time to get to 10k on a hot day.

That said, if and when I ever face an engine overhaul, I will consider a three-blade CS prop conversion. That will require a new throttle quadrant and a manifold pressure gauge. This is my first and last aircraft, so I may spring for it ... or may not. Now that I am retired I want to do more travelling in this plane, and I won't deny that I would prefer a CS prop out west.
 
A good guess at that. I learned as a graduate student that if you're stumped in an oral exam, answer with "I don't know, but I think...." I like to shock students by asking, "Why are manhole covers round?"

In my general non-aviation life experience, saying "I don't know" will almost always lead to a reduced opinion of your knowledge, expertise, value, etc.... folks seem to tend towards not seeing value in it/you.

& I think generally people are afraid to say "I don't know"

Personally I see great value and wisdom when a person admits they "don't know"....or better yet qualifies a thought/theory/idea/observation with "I think"

I've seen it time and time and time again.... in all sorts of different settings....
someone will state something that is entirely wrong, but in a very confident way and their idea will be accepted
while the other person who is correct....and pretty much 'knows' they are correct but just doesn't have proof...or they might have proof but in a different context or application that the subject at hand and they are aware that there could be exceptions that they do not know..... so they qualify with an "I think" so their idea is rejected.
 
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