AA5 Cheetah Wings

Archimago

Archimago

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Archimago
I am looking at a Cheetah for sale and notice that it has 10,000 hours on it and is currently used by a flight school. The price reflects this condition and I can overlook interior and paint and even engine time (maybe) but what worries me is the 12,000 limited wing life.
How expensive is replacing wings on an AA5? I'm concerned that I may be the last owner of this aircraft if I purchase and will not be able sell once I am ready to move on.
 
AuCountry and Fletchair both have experience with doing wings, actually spars, on Grummans. One of the best things to do for a Cheetah is to replace the spar with a Tiger spar and get the O-360 - you then have Tiger weights to go with Tiger climb and speed. They can be found out there and aren't that expensive if you know how to scrounge.
 
Your gut feeling is correct. It's generally uneconomical to do such a wing swap. That's why it's for sale at said price. You're unlikely to be able to sell that thing to someone in your same purchasing demographic, and the flight school already made the calculus and figured the wing swap doesn't pencil out versus just procuring another clap trap to use in their trainer fleet. So if you don't think you're gonna put 2000 hours on it, and I'm willing to bet you won't; most people upgrade to six bangers once they realize sub-200hp UL and power-loading sucks, or simply tire of certified mx BS {I'm increasingly in the latter camp} and lateral into the bliss of EAB. Don't buy it would be my advice.

If you're gonna deal with the quirks of an orphaned honeycomb composite-component airframe with dwindling support in the 21st century (to be clear, not the only factory-built airplane with such fate, before the cult starts foaming at the mouth) , might as well get the right sized power sample, aka a Tiger. As you probably know by looking at Cheetahs in the first place, the Tigers are cult priced and may not be worth the squeeze, but that's a subjective assessment.

If you know you're gonna move up from the get go but can't wait until then to get an airplane, just get a proliferate airplane variant (PA-28 et al) until you can save up for the six banger airplane you really want. Leave the Antique Roadshow ownership antics to the type cults, lest you belong to one of them of course. Good luck.
 
AA5s are probably the best supported "orphaned" airplanes on earth. I know a guy who picked up a set of Tiger wings for a delaminating purple glue Cheetah (one he picked up for basically nothing) for less than $1000 and is having AuCountry put them on and get the Tiger UL STC.

The Cheetah still represents an incredible value and will outrun an Archer for Warrior gas.
 
Hmm. I also noticed that the stated cruise airspeed is between 100 to 110 knots, that sounds a little slow, what do you guys typically get and if compressions are in the 70's what would cause the discrepancy?
 
Fletchair will definitely set you straight on potential cost. An AA5(A) with the high compression STC is the plane it should have been from the start, essentially 160 hp on less than 8 gph, easily outrunning most planes in the 140-160 hp class. If the price is right, it could be a deal. Just factor in the wing replacement from the start. It might just be more affordable to look for a better example. These planes are easy to maintain and are stoutly built, with low maintenance costs. They are nice regional IFR planes for 2 + all you can carry. In cargo mode, the luggage bay is cavernous. I've had that filled up after a shopping trip to LL Bean in Maine.
 
Archimago said:
Hmm. I also noticed that the stated cruise airspeed is between 100 to 110 knots, that sounds a little slow, what do you guys typically get and if compressions are in the 70's what would cause the discrepancy?
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My AA5 cruises at 115-118 kt at 2550-2600 rpm. 100 kt would be a really sick or mis-rigged plane with a climb prop. The '75 AA5s or the AA5As are about 10 kt faster, I think. This assumes a cruise prop pitch. The climb props are of course slower. The high compression STC plus the STC beveled prop will add 2-3 kt and is better matched to the increased power of the STC engine. It will also maintain max rpm in cruise right through 10k.
 
Archimago said:
Hmm. I also noticed that the stated cruise airspeed is between 100 to 110 knots, that sounds a little slow, what do you guys typically get and if compressions are in the 70's what would cause the discrepancy?
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There is no way an AA5A should cruise under 120
 
1RTK1 said:
A tiger at 75% power, 8000, should cruise at 135kts burning 10.5
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And that's an AA5B. An AG5B books at 141 at 75% at 8000.

Incidentally, most Grumman owners are known to fly full throttle at basically any altitude. They actually cool better at higher RPMs

The OP was talking about a Cheetah though.
 
I saw the same plane for sale and thought it was way overpriced, but I will admit I am no expert. even if you replace the wings, you still have an airframe with over 10K hours. $29k for a 10k hour airframe with a 430W and 1660 on the engine
 
You plan on keeping it for more than 10 years and flying it for more than 100 hours a year? If not It’ll still have 1000 hours left when you’re ready to sell.
 
Wrench978 said:
I saw the same plane for sale and thought it was way overpriced, but I will admit I am no expert. even if you replace the wings, you still have an airframe with over 10K hours. $29k for a 10k hour airframe with a 430W and 1660 on the engine
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I think if I were more versed in this I might take a risk, but I don't have the pockets for a this much of a project plane.
 
Salty said:
You plan on keeping it for more than 10 years and flying it for more than 100 hours a year? If not It’ll still have 1000 hours left when you’re ready to sell.
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True, but we have 2 to 3 partners so I think the hours will go quicker than I like.
 
People will never learn, not matter what. There are no bargains in aviation. They just don't exist.
 
steingar said:
People will never learn, not matter what. There are no bargains in aviation. They just don't exist.
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I might gently disagree with this view.

For people with money burning a hole in their pocket and unable to control their emotions about some wreck of a plane that's become their object of desire, you'd be absolutely correct.

But personal airplanes are a discretionary asset and therefore a wide range of rationalizations and motivations for either buying or selling. Patient money intersecting with motivated seller can produce some interesting results. ;)
 
GRG55 said:
Patient money intersecting with motivated seller can produce some interesting results. ;)
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Can, but quite the rarity. Usually you get what you pay for. I think the one exception is you can trade capital for sweat equity quite successfully.
 
GRG55 said:
I might gently disagree with this view.

For people with money burning a hole in their pocket and unable to control their emotions about some wreck of a plane that's become their object of desire, you'd be absolutely correct.
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I have been guilty of that, trying to keep a level head when purchasing your first plane isn't as easy as it should be.
 
steingar said:
People will never learn, not matter what. There are no bargains in aviation. They just don't exist.
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Sure they do. I sold my airplane for only five grand less than I paid for it, and all that I did to it was have it painted, put in new nav-coms, and have the engine rebuilt. In the airplane world, that's a bargain, right?
 
Wrench978 said:
I saw the same plane for sale and thought it was way overpriced, but I will admit I am no expert. even if you replace the wings, you still have an airframe with over 10K hours. $29k for a 10k hour airframe with a 430W and 1660 on the engine
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Buuut I was told on POA airplanes that aren’t flown often are only worth scrap value lol
 
Dave Theisen said:
a friend’s rule: never buy the first one you look at.
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and in my case... never get desperate after you miss out on 3 or 4... they seem to get "prettier" each day you are looking.
 
A Tiger just wrecked in a runway excursion, with wings that appear intact. That might be something to look at.
 
I had a Tiger for over 10 years ... to be brutally honest, do you really want to pre-buy that beast with 10,000 TACH hours (that'd be 12000 Hobbs), and HOBBS is where you start trying to figure out number of take-off and landing cycles.

Dave Fletch is very good and did the pre-buy on my Tiger before I bought it as well as my buyer requested him when I sold it. He's very good, but he's not cheap, and Fredericksburg TX to Silver Wings airport isn't very convenient unless they offer a ride back to San Antonio (over an hour) if you fly it there. If you do go, he has an AWESOME collection of antique weapons and great stories for each and everyone of them.
 
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