VFR and Above the clouds

GeorgiaPilot

GeorgiaPilot

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GeorgiaPilot
Rusty, low time pilot here, making a return to aviation. I am interested in getting some feedback regarding getting above a scattered layer as a VFR rated pilot. Even when I was current 18 years ago, I had a fear that I would get above that cloud layer and then end up having everything close up on me and I would be stuck up there. On my last major cross country, I was so concerned, I traveled 200nm at about 1500 agl to avoid getting on top of a scattered layer. That said, I am interested in hearing from instructors and seasoned pilots as to what guidance they give to students/fellow pilots as to when it is okay to get above the clouds as a VFR rated pilot.

Thanks - Scott
 
Scott, get your instrument rating, then it is not an issue. I flew from Fredrick to Bedford Sunday, above a scattered to broken layer for the first half of the flight. I wanted to fly IFR but they wanted me to fly over JFK, I said no way and flew vfr, knowing I could get a pop up if needed to get back down. Turns out it was a great day and I was above the clouds and bumps at 7,500 feet.
 
My thoughts are based on weather at the destination. If it's predicted to be scattered at the destination and on the TAFs in a 50 mile area around it, I'll fly above it. If it degrades to broken enroute, it's probably more of a 5/8 broken than a 7/8 broken. I'll look for a good hole starting about 50 miles out and choose based on actual clouds and ceilings.

If it's predicted at broken, then I'm going to hesitate and again look at weather in the area. If there's one TAF at broken and the rest scattered, then it's probably good. If mine is broken and the others are overcast, then nogo without instruments.

Of course ceiling height plays into this too. A 4000' overcast layer is not a problem. At 3000, I don't want to be going more than about 75 miles and less than 3000, I'm probably not going more than 25 miles.

My minimums for now.
 
One thing that really helps me is the ADSB in I have in the cockpit. I can check ahead to see if that layer closes up or not. For example, coming back from 6Y9 I flew over a very solid overcast for some time. However, I could see the wx aways in front of me was broken, so once I hit it I came down. Made my flight far more comfortable for a long time.

The guys are right, the instrument ticket is really the best way to deal with this stuff. In the mean time an ADSB antenna and device to show the output are a good way to stay out of trouble.
 
Get under it before it all closes up. Your next hole may never come. Get your IR if you want to play above the clouds. Not saying you shouldn’t be above the clouds but just be very vigilant.
 
I flew above a scattered layer at about 9500 ft cross the state of FL on my first cross country. As long as you can continue to make out obstacles on the ground (or major landmarks) you should be good. Once those start disappearing, or you start seeing more solid layers, you can always start a descent to get under the cloud layer before you pass over it. Or just make a 180 and do the same thing and continue. Pre flight planning goes a long way to making sure you don't encounter a layer unexpectedly.

For instrument rated pilots you learn the difference between VFR on top and VFR over the top. Over the top is flying over a solid layer visually for a short period of time and you don't need an instrument rating so long as you can make it back down without going through a layer. On top you need to be rated to get through the layer up or down in the first place and then you fly VFR once you get through it at VFR altitudes.

No reason to get an instrument rating for VFR over the top so long as you can get back down again that is. Works fine in mountainous areas or if you are going through an area that may have a layer but might be breaking up.
 
It's not complicated, how sure are you that when you get to where you're going there will be a way down? If the current conditions are clear or few and the forecast is saying clear or few at not only your destination but airports in that area I'd probably lean towards a go. Scattered is tricky though sometimes 'scattered' is nearly broken and sometimes it's closer to 'few'. That and sometimes the weather does unexpected things. I don't think flying VFR over scattered clouds is dangerous or foolish- I've done it a number of times myself and it was never a big deal but I was always very picky about what conditions I was willing to do it in.

That said, after I started doing it I found myself getting more comfortable with it. Even flying over some broken layers to get somewhere. Never had a scare or close call but I realized if I started making this a regular thing eventually I probably would have the hole close up so it pushed me to start making more of an effort to get the instrument rating done. Being able to file and not worry about holes really simplifies life. Even if you choose to fly VFR you can always call up ATC and ask for the IFR clearance in flight if you get into a bad spot. I played out a scenario like that earlier this year in fact...

I was on my way home to UIN from Paducha. Conditions there were clear, there were few clouds towards my destination and the St Louis area forecast to go scattered but not until later in the day. I forgot why I wanted to be VFR, but either way I got over the clouds and as I passed St Louis I could clearly see the cloud layer getting denser and the holes getting fewer. Now had I been VFR only I'd have been considering landing short or descending down low to around 1,000' -1500 AGL to get under all that and try to slip home under it. Down where flight following wouldn't have me on radar and thermals would be knocking me around and make the flight stressful and miserable. I chose to just proceed on. Indeed when I got close to home that scattered had quickly gone to broken and was pretty much solid overcast despite the forecast. What would have been highly concerning to me as a VFR pilot was a yawn now, I called up KC center and asked them for a pop-up IFR clearance to get down. They took my info over the radio and cleared me onto an approach for home. The actual layer was thin, probably not much over 500' of cloud, I quickly popped out underneath, canceled IFR, and made a normal non-eventful landing.

IFR doesn't get the private pilot in a single engine piston aircraft through everything- there's still a lot of weather that's a no go but it takes away the worry in so many situations and lets you get up top in the smooth air instead of getting slammed around between the clouds and the ground. I highly recommend it.
 
Yup, its all about the trend. If you see that layer closing up, get down quick (its easily and quickly done if you dont let it surprise you). Also, yeah get your IFR and all that stress evaporates (sorry, cloud pun!)
 
steingar said:
One thing that really helps me is the ADSB in I have in the cockpit. I can check ahead to see if that layer closes up or not. For example, coming back from 6Y9 I flew over a very solid overcast for some time. However, I could see the wx aways in front of me was broken, so once I hit it I came down. Made my flight far more comfortable for a long time.

The guys are right, the instrument ticket is really the best way to deal with this stuff. In the mean time an ADSB antenna and device to show the output are a good way to stay out of trouble.
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This^^^
And before my instrument rating and ADS-B, I would look at a sectional, find a tunable AWOS 25-35 miles ahead, and tune in to make sure it was ok ahead, before climbing on top. Every few minutes, I'd tune into a new AWOS 25 or so miles ahead, and continue to make sure things weren't closing in.
 
Thanks for all of the responses, advice, and real world examples. My goal is to begin my IR training once I am current again. It’s awesome how helpful everyone is! Thank you!
 
I do it all the time. Even with entire states being overcast. :eek: Al depends on your confidence with SE ops, your confidence in knowing you can keep the wings level if you have to descend thru it (engine out), and your confidence in the destination weather (FIS-B). Wish I could do over the top for work but I digress.
 
Weekend Warrior said:
This^^^
And before my instrument rating and ADS-B, I would look at a sectional, find a tunable AWOS 25-35 miles ahead, and tune in to make sure it was ok ahead, before climbing on top. Every few minutes, I'd tune into a new AWOS 25 or so miles ahead, and continue to make sure things weren't closing in.
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A call to FSS on 122.2 often works too.
 
For sure, the IR takes all the stress out of MVFR or VFR on/over top. If you do fly over a broken or overcast layer, do understand you are taking on additional significant risk should you encounter an in-flight emergency. Scattered layers have a habit of closing up, including where you've been, which can be a bit embarrassing. BTDT in my youthful VFR only days. Legal is not always safe. Have my IR now and such conditions are a nothing burger. Take care...
 
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GeorgiaPilot said:
Rusty, low time pilot here, making a return to aviation. I am interested in getting some feedback regarding getting above a scattered layer as a VFR rated pilot. Even when I was current 18 years ago, I had a fear that I would get above that cloud layer and then end up having everything close up on me and I would be stuck up there. On my last major cross country, I was so concerned, I traveled 200nm at about 1500 agl to avoid getting on top of a scattered layer. That said, I am interested in hearing from instructors and seasoned pilots as to what guidance they give to students/fellow pilots as to when it is okay to get above the clouds as a VFR rated pilot.

Thanks - Scott
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As with most things in flying, you have to identify and mitigate risk. You accept a lot of risk VFR over a broken/overcast layer. Flying over a scatter layer and monitoring conditions, not so much.
 
  • For short distances, be confident in your ability to slip and or spiral down through smaller holes and turn back immediately if you run out of holes.
  • Don’t go above clouds that have low bases so that you would be forced to descend to low altitude before breaking out if you were forced to descend through them for some reason.
  • For long distances, get in cockpit weather, such as adsb-in, and combine that with very thorough weather briefings before committing to the flight. Make damn well sure your destination is going to be VERY VFR, if you know what I mean.
If you do the above, combined with some of the warnings already given by others, you should be fine. I routinely fly 800 mile trips above the clouds without an IR, but I’m extremely cautious of the weather before and during the flight.
 
I love flying over scattered layers, especially during the summer when it's so much cooler/smoother up there. However, as others have said it all depends on the regional weather. How well do you know the weather patterns where you'll be flying? In Florida, it's pretty common that the clouds will be scattered in the afternoons, but definitely just scattered (until the late afternoon/evening storms roll in). I still avoid flying on those afternoons due to the heat and incredibly fast development of the weather, but I know that the clouds form over land primarily and that I could get over the bay/gulf and down if needed.

I flew Dayton to Nashville and about 1 hour of the flight was over a broken layer, but I always had the edge of the clouds in sight in case I needed to divert to VFR. The cloud bases were also high enough in case of an emergency. Beautiful flight.

I flew from Atlanta to Tampa early one morning and upon climb I noticed a lot of fog. Then I realized the entire state was covered in fog and my first thought was how beautiful it was and my second thought was "where and how would I land in an emergency?" That question got me to understand that even though the beautiful VFR morning above 500 feet was nice, if the rest of the area had fog/haze maybe I shouldn't be flying VFR for another 30 minutes until it burns off.
 
Scattered generally aren't an issue, broken can be. Also, TAFs aren't very good for trying to time clouds for a flight, generally observations are better before a flight and during.
 
Weekend Warrior said:
This^^^
And before my instrument rating and ADS-B, I would look at a sectional, find a tunable AWOS 25-35 miles ahead, and tune in to make sure it was ok ahead, before climbing on top. Every few minutes, I'd tune into a new AWOS 25 or so miles ahead, and continue to make sure things weren't closing in.
Click to expand...

That. ADSB is all done and dandy, remember it could be an hour or more old and things could close in quickly if there is a front in the area.
 
Things can happen quickly. Forecasts can be wrong. Always have an out. I was a rusty low time pilot like you. Got current. Then went right into IFR training and got rating. Have more time but still low time enough to have personal minimums that keep me safe.
Knowing what I know now and flying a fair amount of IMC in training and now, I would not want to put my VFR self in a position to be faced with getting stuck.
Will say not a fan of scud running at 1500AGL for 200nm trip either. Not a lot of time to deal with a problem.
 
Always good to have an instrument rating ,if going above a layer. You can’t always trust the TAFs to be accurate.
 
You only need to get caught once on top or scud running underneath a low ceiling to realize that this is a highly unpleasant, high-risk activity. The IR is SO worth it to avoid this fate on otherwise benign weather days.
 
As others have said, get your IFR. One of the best things I ever did. In the mean time, if you get on top and things close up, don't try to be a hero. ASK FOR HELP!!! Most of today's controllers are super nice and will do everything they can to help you. They have access to radar, forecasts, PIREPS, etc. They will work hard to get you down safely.
 
lancie00 said:
As others have said, get your IFR. One of the best things I ever did. In the mean time, if you get on top and things close up, don't try to be a hero. ASK FOR HELP!!! Most of today's controllers are super nice and will do everything they can to help you. They have access to radar, forecasts, PIREPS, etc. They will work hard to get you down safely.
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They don’t know where the clouds are though, other than base heights above airports with weather equipment, so they are limited in what they can do for you.
 
Salty said:
They don’t know where the clouds are though, other than base heights above airports with weather equipment, so they are limited in what they can do for you.
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I agree that they are limited but, they'll probably still have more information that you do above the clouds. And at that point, you're looking for help wherever you can get it.
 
lancie00 said:
I agree that they are limited but, they'll probably still have more information that you do above the clouds. And at that point, you're looking for help wherever you can get it.
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I wasn’t arguing, just making it clear they can’t snatch you from your plane to safety. Don’t make bad decisions because they are there.
 
Yesterday I had a partially scattered cloud layer completely close up on me in a period of 10 minutes. Had a similar experience about 10 years ago.

Just when you think you know what the weather is doing, it will bite you in the ....

My takeaway - never delay getting below a scattered layer if there's any sign of it closing up and you getting trapped on top (speaking purely vfr, and assuming the layer could be extensive).

its one thing to knowingly plan a trip on top (i dont do it, but some do). yet its quite another to get inadvertently trapped on top. the added stress/anxiety can lead you into making stupid mistakes.

any sign, at all, of closing up and im getting below the layer NOW.
 
Salty said:
They don’t know where the clouds are though, other than base heights above airports with weather equipment, so they are limited in what they can do for you.
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Maybe less limited than what a pilot can do for himself, though.

I don’t know enough about controllers, but wouldn’t they have access to satellite imagery? Plus they may have pireps and they can query other aircraft, too,can’t they? Or contact a tower at your destination?
 
Thanks again for all of the replies. Most all affirm that my actions I took before, to stay below the layer, was the better thing (didnt say best :) ) to do..even though it wasn't fun. I still don't trust myself/my skills enough to confidently fly on top...so I'll continue to stay below until I get into my IR training.
 
GeorgiaPilot said:
Thanks again for all of the replies. Most all affirm that my actions I took before, to stay below the layer, was the better thing (didnt say best :) ) to do..even though it wasn't fun. I still don't trust myself/my skills enough to confidently fly on top...so I'll continue to stay below until I get into my IR training.
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Not trying to change your mind, but if you do it, you’ll pick up the skills to feel better about it. Get the IR though if you can.
 
Half Fast said:
Maybe less limited than what a pilot can do for himself, though.

I don’t know enough about controllers, but wouldn’t they have access to satellite imagery? Plus they may have pireps and they can query other aircraft, too,can’t they? Or contact a tower at your destination?
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I was recently reading about the Norwegian version of NTSB for aircraft incidents. Came across a fascinating incident from I think last year. A pilot that had just gotten his PPL and was very low time made a mistake in judgement at a small airport in Norway. It was bad weather, so he cancelled his plans to take a trip but figured that it was good enough that he could do a few rounds in the pattern, get some takeoff and landings.

He took off, and almost immediately found himself in IMC, as he turned he really couldn’t see the runway even at low patter altitude. He executed two different 180’s and quickly realized he was in trouble so he climbed above. Another factor was terrain, so he did make a good call that it was too dangerous to fly so low, and that meant he didn’t dare keep at pattern when he wasn’t sure exactly where he was. When he was on top he saw no holes, but decided to try a nearby airport he figured he could get to, that he was familiar with.

Though he was “dinged” later for bad judgment, and also apparently didn’t know how to use the nav equipment (which I don’t understand how that could be but maybe it was because of stress?) they praised him for contacting ATC at a large airport a good ways away. They moved him to a different freq, and then proceeded to work with him. It was socked in, he wasn’t totally sure how much fuel/time or else didn’t trust his own evaluation of it.

meanwhile they had him on radar, and made calls to different airports (ones that didn’t have TAF’s, smaller airports) and finally found one within range that was not socked in. They actually called the airport owner who travelled in to the airport to assist. All went well, he made the airport and landed without incident.

it was a pretty riveting and well written report. Again, they praised him for his decision to contact and ask for help, noting that if he had waited it could have been a disaster. Read an update he is now an accomplished pilot and learned a lot from that experience.

Also they had assistance, as you mention, from other aircraft (at some point I recall he couldn’t reach ATC, and a commercial airplane relayed his call, as well as a helicopter, and others flying gave reports on conditions where they happened to be in the vicinity.

It also was noted that if he had climbed out on takeoff more slowly, he might have been able to do the round and land. He climbed at (apparently) Vy and so by the time he reacted was already too far into IMC. They mention if he had climbed less steeply he might have been able to keep out of IMC.
 
PaulS said:
Scott, get your instrument rating, then it is not an issue. I flew from Fredrick to Bedford Sunday, above a scattered to broken layer for the first half of the flight. I wanted to fly IFR but they wanted me to fly over JFK, I said no way and flew vfr, knowing I could get a pop up if needed to get back down. Turns out it was a great day and I was above the clouds and bumps at 7,500 feet.
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What is the problem with flying over JFK? I assume they would keep you fairly high.
 
DesertNomad said:
What is the problem with flying over JFK? I assume they would keep you fairly high.
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On the way down I had 3 full route changes in 5 minutes just before the non stop radio transmissions from the NYC controllers started, it aggravated me. But mainly it added about 20 minutes to this flight, I had planned on and was half way through a more westerly route.
 
Knowing typical conditions in the region is important. Become a student of the weather.

An example is in the Ohio Valley and across parts of WV, you'll find the lowlands and "hollers" socked in, but higher land is OK. It's really an interesting sight from above. And what it means is that if an airport is on top of a hill or in the higher lands, it'll be more likely to be clear than the ones in the valley.

Know your conditions, know your limitations, and know your "outs"
 
GeorgiaPilot said:
Thanks for all of the responses, advice, and real world examples. My goal is to begin my IR training once I am current again. It’s awesome how helpful everyone is! Thank you!
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Get current while getting your instrument. There's no better way to make yourself a better pilot than getting your instrument rating. You handle the plane MUCH better.
 
I fly xc over sct clds but err on the side of being too safe. Check airport reports along route and if it looks iffy, stay low. I never fly over bkn or ovc.
 
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