Thinking about a Backhoe

[Ted]

Right now in the tractor fleet the front end loader is an Allis Chalmers D17. It's got a pretty big bucket, like 6' long, and the best part about it is it's also got a hydraulic claw, which is fantastic for dragging trees and other large stuff around. However a backhoe would be useful for pulling trees out of the ground and various other fun things.

A Case 580 looks like it's about the ideal size and would fit on my trailer to go get one, similar size/weight to my bulldozer. So 14k lbs or less would be the weight requirement.

Any other suggestions for ones to look at? Keep in mind I buy older stuff since that fits with our use needs.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Word of advice. You don't pull trees. You push trees. Pulling trees gets you killed.

 

[Ted]

Word of advice. You don't pull trees. You push trees. Pulling trees gets you killed.

Fair point, I was using it as a figure of speech.

"Removing trees from the ground."

 

[gkainz]

Grew up running a couple of John Deere 310 backhoes. Worked well and very durable, back in the day. Used 5 days a week year in and year out, digging rock.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

One thing that will shock you is how tenacious some trees are. I use my backhoe to dig out stumps, and a large stump is quite difficult to dig out, what with breaking leg-sized roots, etc. I've had success pulling large trees over using ropes up near the top, especially after days of rain. (I also push small trees over, or ones that I've cut to 10' or less, with the loader. But you have a bulldozer for that action!)
One huge plus about digging out stumps, vs. grinding them, is that the ground doesn't sink when the stump decays.

 

[Ted]

One thing that will shock you is how tenacious some trees are. I use my backhoe to dig out stumps, and a large stump is quite difficult to dig out, what with breaking leg-sized roots, etc. I've had success pulling large trees over using ropes up near the top, especially after days of rain. (I also push small trees over, or ones that I've cut to 10' or less, with the loader. But you have a bulldozer for that action!)
One huge plus about digging out stumps, vs. grinding them, is that the ground doesn't sink when the stump decays.

Right now I've been using the bulldozer for getting trees out of the ground. Yes, some of them are a real pain and very difficult to get out. That's part of why I'd like to have both tools available.

 

[Ghery]

The last time I remember removing a large tree (this was in the mid-1960s, so it was a long time ago) the owner drove into town, bought a few sticks of dynamite, and put them in around the base of the tree. Shattered the root system, making it much easier to knock over. I did say this was a long time ago, just try driving into the local hardware store and walking out with 6 sticks of dynamite today.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Case? I thought we were friends....

 

[Bell206]

A Case 580 looks like it's about the ideal size

We have a 580 Super 4x4 with extend-a-hoe on my buddy's ranch and it has been able to do everything we needed it to do. Don't know if it's a 8hr/7 day week machine but its pretty bullet proof and compliments the dozer for ad hoc heavy use.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

To be fair, I don’t think we have one light enough in the lineup. Only the mini excavator would be that light. Can’t win them all. Ready for that 2.5MW generator yet??

 

[Ted]

We have a 580 Super 4x4 with extend-a-hoe on my buddy's ranch and it has been able to do everything we needed it to do. Don't know if it's a 8hr/7 day week machine but its pretty bullet proof and compliments the dozer for ad hoc heavy use.

I'm not looking for any sort of full time use, just something that's got enough life left in it. I don't see them getting used a ton by the pros, but then again that's not what I am.

Case? I thought we were friends....

To be fair, I don’t think we have one light enough in the lineup. Only the mini excavator would be that light. Can’t win them all. Ready for that 2.5MW generator yet??

That's more or less the issue. I would love a CAT, but the ones I see are way out of budget and require a semi with a low loader trailer to transport.

Actually, I have been getting more interested in something with a 3406B (specifically the B model, as I like all mechanical engines) or a 3116 or 3126. Something to keep my eye out for. Building a vehicle around a 3412 would be awesome, but those are hard to find and expensive.

 

[jheyen]

How about a three point attached backhoe for the tractor you have. We had one growing up that worked good enough for the small jobs we needed it for.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

I'm not looking for any sort of full time use, just something that's got enough life left in it. I don't see them getting used a ton by the pros, but then again that's not what I am.





That's more or less the issue. I would love a CAT, but the ones I see are way out of budget and require a semi with a low loader trailer to transport.

Actually, I have been getting more interested in something with a 3406B (specifically the B model, as I like all mechanical engines) or a 3116 or 3126. Something to keep my eye out for. Building a vehicle around a 3412 would be awesome, but those are hard to find and expensive.

I'm not looking for any sort of full time use, just something that's got enough life left in it. I don't see them getting used a ton by the pros, but then again that's not what I am.





That's more or less the issue. I would love a CAT, but the ones I see are way out of budget and require a semi with a low loader trailer to transport.

Actually, I have been getting more interested in something with a 3406B (specifically the B model, as I like all mechanical engines) or a 3116 or 3126. Something to keep my eye out for. Building a vehicle around a 3412 would be awesome, but those are hard to find and expensive.

You want a 3412? You got it!

https://www.mylittlesalesman.com/1997-caterpillar-d10r-dozer-9746094

 

[Kritchlow]

Oh... BACKhoe. I misread that.

(Was wondering what a blockhoe was)

 

[Ted]

How about a three point attached backhoe for the tractor you have. We had one growing up that worked good enough for the small jobs we needed it for.

I have thought about that as well.

You want a 3412? You got it!

https://www.mylittlesalesman.com/1997-caterpillar-d10r-dozer-9746094

Hm. I wonder if he'd come down about $390,000 on price.

A couple YouTuBe channels you might like that I watch:

This guy is a 3406E/C15 guru: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8lKoGcxV40cuRr67Rwnpwg
And this fellow has an old Pete 359 with a 3406B and twin stick 6x4 (24-speed) transmissions: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4hWrVWKF9aPZcxoSUz8CNw

 

[cgrab]

You may only need the mid-size trackhoe for your mission. We used the 580 in the Marine Corps and it is a pretty tough machine. If you are sold on a backhoe, it is a good choice. Finally, I would go with the hoe attachment for your AC loader if there was a pole.

 

[Ted]

You may only need the mid-size trackhoe for your mission. We used the 580 in the Marine Corps and it is a pretty tough machine. If you are sold on a backhoe, it is a good choice. Finally, I would go with the hoe attachment for your AC loader if there was a pole.

One of my thoughts is trying to reduce the number of separate machines I have and combine capabilities. A trackhoe would be great, but it seems like a 580 is beefier and generally I can find those for less than a trackhoe.

A 3-point attachment for AC loader wouldn't be a bad idea and I've considered that, too, but it seems like most of them are fairly small and I think that I'd bang them up pretty quickly.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

If you want to wait on buying more equipment, you could just add a rake to your dozer to pry trees out of the ground. But buying new toys is cool too.

www.dozerrakes.com (I have no affiliation with these people....just found them with Google)

 

[CJones]

We put in a pool at my parents' place a couple of years ago. Had to move a lot of trees to make room. You couldn't have gotten them out with a backhoe - we had a Takeuchi TB260 mini excavator and even then, I worked for 4 hours solid on one big pine tree before finally getting low enough to get the tap root to break so we could drag the root ball out. My dad has a Massey GC1710 with backhoe. We've used that thing WAY beyond its original design limits, but it can't do trees over about basketball size. I'm trying to remember what size trees you have on your place, but unless they are smaller sized or you want to spend a LOT of diesel and a LOT of time, it might be worth renting a larger mini excavator to tackle the tree removal in one big weekend and then tinker with the other stuff afterwards.

EDIT to add: Not saying you SHOULDN'T get a backhoe. I never thought we would use the backhoe attachment as much as we do on my dad's little 22hp tractor. That thing is darn handy to have around! Just saying that I don't think it meets the specific mission you have in mind.

Here's one of the smaller root balls that we dug out. This one was probably 2 hrs of work with that size (12k lbs IIRC) excavator.

 

[Bell206]

I'm not looking for any sort of full time use, just something that's got enough life left in it.

We would run ours hard for a long weekend/week then it usually sits for a few months. Never had any issues. We had a smaller one (480?) without the extend-hoe that seemed to be at its limit at times. My buddy picked up (2) 580s at auction, 1 running, 1 not. Elected to get non-run one going as it was a Super and had the extend-a-hoe. He sold the 2nd 580 and 480 at profit which we bought pole auger, bucket thumb, and hammer attachment. Don't know if you need the extend-a-hoe as it can add $8k+ to the price but it earned its keep quickly working with the dozer as we cleared mesquite/thorns/Huisache for a 100x2500 runway, high fenced 30 acres, added roads, deer stands, etc, etc.

 

[Ted]

If you want to wait on buying more equipment, you could just add a rake to your dozer to pry trees out of the ground. But buying new toys is cool too.

www.dozerrakes.com (I have no affiliation with these people....just found them with Google)

I've also thought about the dozer rake idea as well. Right now what I'm doing is using the dozer blade and breaking up the roots with those, and then going through and eventually getting the root ball out. It's working, but it is work. Although Chris (quoted below) makes me think I'm not sure how much quicker things would go with something else.

We put in a pool at my parents' place a couple of years ago. Had to move a lot of trees to make room. You couldn't have gotten them out with a backhoe - we had a Takeuchi TB260 mini excavator and even then, I worked for 4 hours solid on one big pine tree before finally getting low enough to get the tap root to break so we could drag the root ball out. My dad has a Massey GC1710 with backhoe. We've used that thing WAY beyond its original design limits, but it can't do trees over about basketball size. I'm trying to remember what size trees you have on your place, but unless they are smaller sized or you want to spend a LOT of diesel and a LOT of time, it might be worth renting a larger mini excavator to tackle the tree removal in one big weekend and then tinker with the other stuff afterwards.

EDIT to add: Not saying you SHOULDN'T get a backhoe. I never thought we would use the backhoe attachment as much as we do on my dad's little 22hp tractor. That thing is darn handy to have around! Just saying that I don't think it meets the specific mission you have in mind.

Here's one of the smaller root balls that we dug out. This one was probably 2 hrs of work with that size (12k lbs IIRC) excavator.

I don't have any pictures of the root balls I've pulled up so far. Our trees that we're digging up are not bigger around than a basketball, and they're not pine, they're that thorny brush trees from the 7th circle of hell (according to @James_Dean ). Generally one tree hasn't taken more than about an hour's worth of labor to do with the D4, normally less than. The one I started working on a few weeks ago (which now has a moat around it) is the biggest tree on the property and definitely going to be the hardest.

I've thought about also doing the idea of renting the mini excavator for a weekend after going through with what I can using the dozer. One thing I will say is the dozer wears you out - after a few hours on it I've had enough.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

If you want to wait on buying more equipment, you could just add a rake to your dozer to pry trees out of the ground. But buying new toys is cool too.

www.dozerrakes.com (I have no affiliation with these people....just found them with Google)

I have a rake for my Cat 977. Good for cleaning up roots etc. after you push the trees over, but you ain't prying one out of the ground with it. Best way to get the tough ones out is to dig around the base first.

The only trees that have me fits were dead ones, because you never know what they'll do, and those more than 3' in diameter. But mine's a 47,000 pound machine.
I like a margin of safety.

 

[GRG55]

When I first read the thread title I thought to myself "Does Ted's wife really want yet another earth moving/excavating machine?"

Then I read these dangerous words...

One of my thoughts is trying to reduce the number of separate machines I have and combine capabilities...

You already told us SHE owns the dozer. Careful you don't forget that at your own peril...

(P.S. Some years ago Mrs. GRG55 went through a bout of wanting "power tools". But the stuff I gave her is small beans compared to the DuPuis household "garden tool" gift registry...no hydraulic systems or compression ignition engines, just stuff that can be operated with a Dewalt battery pack . I don't dare let her see threads like you post, or she'll start getting ideas.)

 

[alfadog]

I have a lot of hours on combinations and trackhoes. John Deere makes an excellent machine. Would have to be a 310 to stay under 14 or 15k.

 

[weilke]

Given that you already have a dozer and a tractor with a loader, the dirt moving part is covered. A mini-excavator is going to be much more maneuverable to get around the bases of trees etc.

 

[kmacht]

A mini excavator with a thumb will be way more usefull if you already have a tractor with a bucket. A backhoe is good at many things but not great at any if them

 

[CJones]

I don't have any pictures of the root balls I've pulled up so far. Our trees that we're digging up are not bigger around than a basketball, and they're not pine, they're that thorny brush trees from the 7th circle of hell (according to @James_Dean ). Generally one tree hasn't taken more than about an hour's worth of labor to do with the D4, normally less than. The one I started working on a few weeks ago (which now has a moat around it) is the biggest tree on the property and definitely going to be the hardest.

I've thought about also doing the idea of renting the mini excavator for a weekend after going through with what I can using the dozer. One thing I will say is the dozer wears you out - after a few hours on it I've had enough.

That's right, I remember those trees know. Good 'ol tire killers.

Another thing to remember - if you're removing trees where the runway will be, you need to get down to get all the roots out (at least the bigger ones) because over time they will rot out and create low spots in the runway. I've never dug those kinds of trees out before, but if they go more than a couple feet deep, you'll need more than the dozer and rake to get the bigger feeder roots out of the way. The mini-ex was a breeze to operate. Definitely worn out at the end of the day, but not nearly as much physical exertion to operate it as that dozer is, I'm sure.

 

[Ted]

That's right, I remember those trees know. Good 'ol tire killers.

Yes. This is why I've spent a good sum of money on foam filled or solid tires that don't go flat.

Another thing to remember - if you're removing trees where the runway will be, you need to get down to get all the roots out (at least the bigger ones) because over time they will rot out and create low spots in the runway. I've never dug those kinds of trees out before, but if they go more than a couple feet deep, you'll need more than the dozer and rake to get the bigger feeder roots out of the way. The mini-ex was a breeze to operate. Definitely worn out at the end of the day, but not nearly as much physical exertion to operate it as that dozer is, I'm sure.

I'm getting out as much as I can. That said we're also fully expecting that the runway will need touch-ups along the way after it's built for various root decay, potential erosion, etc. etc. I'm actually getting surprisingly deep with the dozer, and then pushing off the big roots I'm able to get out off to someplace else (edge of property, burn pile, etc.).

I'm sure that mini excavator was much easier to operate than Laurie's bulldozer. That thing is a real physical workout, mostly because of the brakes used to steer the thing and the fact that the brakes/steering is about 90% of what you're doing with it.

I suppose you all have made a good point about a mini excavator instead of trying to do something with the Allis Chalmers and a backhoe. I'll have to think about that. That changes the financial picture of it significantly.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Maybe renting one for a month or so to see if it'll do what you want, and if so converting to a year's lease. The other benefit to that is if it breaks, you pick up the phone instead of a wrench.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

One of my thoughts is trying to reduce the number of separate machines I have and combine capabilities. A trackhoe would be great, but it seems like a 580 is beefier and generally I can find those for less than a trackhoe.

Why not a D4 with a backhoe?

This one’s only $17.4, and you two could be outside spending romantic Saturday afternoons on his and her D4s together?

https://equipmentlist.com/equipment/cat-d4d-bulldozer-with-backhoe/

CAT D4D with Back Hoe For Sale

I Have a incredibly versatile do-all (older) model Caterpillar Dozer WITH HOE for sale. Owned for many years, we don’t have work for it anymore and so it needs a new home.

This is a very reliable machine, maintained well, good batteries, and is in pretty solid shape with no real issues that I am aware of.

Starts right up, gets to work and just goes year after year. It is so handy to have the hoe attachment, that I wouldn’t have a machine without it.

Included: 12″ / 24″ / 36″ buckets. Also I think we have a winch around somewhere….not sure of it’s condition, given that we never used it.

The paint is new and she has tons of life left in her.

 

[alfadog]

Does it really need to go on a trailer? If you want to sturdy old trackhoe cheap, get a P & H. No wimpy joysticks there, big-ass levers, and lots of them (swing, boom, crowd, bucket; might even have levers for travel, I can't remember it's been a long time since I ran them). Get diggin'!

https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/17615675/1968-p-and-h-h418

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Does it really need to go on a trailer? If you want to sturdy old trackhoe cheap, get a P & H. No wimpy joysticks there, big-ass levers, and lots of them (swing, boom, crowd, bucket; might even have levers for travel, I can't remember it's been a long time since I ran them). Get diggin'!

https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/17615675/1968-p-and-h-h418

“approximate weight 75,000lbs”

Yeah, I don’t think the Dodge will pull that one around town.

 

[alfadog]

“approximate weight 75,000lbs”

Yeah, I don’t think the Dodge will pull that one around town.

Well, that's why I asked if it had to go on a trailer. Is this something he's going to use on his property? Then it wouldn't need to go far. If he needs it moved on an occasional basis, it's not that expensive to get someone with a lowboy to do it.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

I have a small backhoe....my vote is a mid-sized excavator with tracks and a bucket thumb....like mentioned below. Pro's around here don't use backhoes much...and more work can be done with an excavator.

We put in a pool at my parents' place a couple of years ago. Had to move a lot of trees to make room. You couldn't have gotten them out with a backhoe - we had a Takeuchi TB260 mini excavator and even then, I worked for 4 hours solid on one big pine tree before finally getting low enough to get the tap root to break so we could drag the root ball out. My dad has a Massey GC1710 with backhoe. We've used that thing WAY beyond its original design limits, but it can't do trees over about basketball size. I'm trying to remember what size trees you have on your place, but unless they are smaller sized or you want to spend a LOT of diesel and a LOT of time, it might be worth renting a larger mini excavator to tackle the tree removal in one big weekend and then tinker with the other stuff afterwards.

EDIT to add: Not saying you SHOULDN'T get a backhoe. I never thought we would use the backhoe attachment as much as we do on my dad's little 22hp tractor. That thing is darn handy to have around! Just saying that I don't think it meets the specific mission you have in mind.

Here's one of the smaller root balls that we dug out. This one was probably 2 hrs of work with that size (12k lbs IIRC) excavator.

 

[weilke]

I have a small backhoe....my vote is a mid-sized excavator with tracks and a bucket thumb....like mentioned below. Pro's around here don't use backhoes much...and more work can be done with an excavator.

Most crews seem to have moved to the combo of skid-steer and compact excavator for the lighter work. Also allows them to use non-CDL drivers to haul the equipment. You just don't see many new small dozers or backhoes these days.

 

[Ted]

Why not a D4 with a backhoe?

That would be fantastic if I could find a backhoe that would attach to the D4. It would be really ideal from a lot of perspectives. But I'd need a pretty big backhoe attachment and figure out how to attach it to the thing. The D4's hydraulic system is low pressure and low flow so I'd probably also have to add a second hydraulic system. Again, though, the question would be a backhoe attachment that would be of appropriate size and capability to attach to it.

@NealRomeoGolf will be happy to know that yesterday I saw a CAT mini-excavator at a local construction site that would be about the perfect size. Of course it's probably a $50k+ machine, which puts it out of my budget.

Well, that's why I asked if it had to go on a trailer. Is this something he's going to use on his property? Then it wouldn't need to go far. If he needs it moved on an occasional basis, it's not that expensive to get someone with a lowboy to do it.

It depends. I did find a local giant excavator that the guy offered delivery for "not much" and he's asking $5,500 for it. Has some issues, but would probably last long enough for what I need. Catch then is getting rid of the stupid thing, or if it didn't last long enough.

Ultimately I've decided that I don't want to buy machinery that I can't move myself with whatever truck/trailer equipment I have. When I bought my wife the D4 I was looking at some larger bulldozers that would have been better equipped to do the job, but when I got shipping quotes they were too high to be worthwhile.

Most crews seem to have moved to the combo of skid-steer and compact excavator for the lighter work. Also allows them to use non-CDL drivers to haul the equipment. You just don't see many new small dozers or backhoes these days.

That's the real issue - transport. Here in Kansas we have the advantage of flat roads so I can tow comfortably right up to the Ram's limits. However it doesn't take long to get above the 26,000 lb limit.

 

[alfadog]

...
It depends. I did find a local giant excavator that the guy offered delivery for "not much" and he's asking $5,500 for it. Has some issues, but would probably last long enough for what I need. Catch then is getting rid of the stupid thing, or if it didn't last long enough.

Ultimately I've decided that I don't want to buy machinery that I can't move myself with whatever truck/trailer equipment I have. When I bought my wife the D4 I was looking at some larger bulldozers that would have been better equipped to do the job, but when I got shipping quotes they were too high to be worthwhile.
...

Well, there is this...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-BADGE...MMINS-8-3L-5-9-GRADALL-4-BUCKETS/323877641831

Also:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Caterpillar-206-Wheeled-Hydraulic-Excavator-w-Blade/113759330647
https://www.ebay.com/itm/GRADALL-G3WD-4X4-WHEELED-EXCAVATOR-37K-MILES/113758013921

I never ran a Gradall-type machine. The work I did required a lot more breakout force but they should be fine for your uses.

 

[Ted]

Well, there is this...

Those would be some interesting and decent options if there was something like that closer. Something to search for...

 

[alfadog]

Those would be some interesting and decent options if there was something like that closer. Something to search for...

Good luck. BTW, if you really want to have fun with heavy equipment, get yourself an old motor grader. The Cat 12 would be the standard but there are some others that look pretty good on eBay. They go over the road just fine usually. I never got proficient with them but jumped in one every chance I got, the real cream of dirt-moving! Good operators are the artists of the heavy equipment world.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Galion-T50...-Scarifier-Cummins-DSL-10-158Hrs/233349569716
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Caterpillar-Cat-road-grader-12/264435725745

 

[Ted]

Good luck. BTW, if you really want to have fun with heavy equipment, get yourself an old motor grader.

That's one thing I've seen come up fairly regularly on CraigsList and the idea is an interesting one. Theoretically it could be useful for the runway. That said I think I can do what I need to just fine with the bulldozer.

What I really need to do is spend more time using the equipment I have.