Managing fast Captain upgrades...

That was one of the 3 carriers who made up Endeavor's policy. Ultimately, the carrier that survived in terms of training department, didn't keep it.

Generally speaking, the FO's who brag about when they'll have 1000 hours and are rushing to an upgrade, are the least ready. And the guys who know where they stand and can clearly tell you why they do/don't want to upgrade will probably be the best captains when they do upgrade. In my experience.
In my limited experience as a captain, I’ve found that new hires are generally the most pleasant to fly with and the “senior” 2 year FOs are always the ones who think they have the whole world figured out and have be brought down to earth. 99% of the FOs I fly with are an absolute pleasure to fly with and make my job so easy.
 
Still speculation at this point...

Hopefully we don't have to kill another planeload of people to fix the problem, though.

It’s a guarantee with a WWII style training system.

In other industries we don’t hire the kid hoping to get enough hours to work the help desk, let alone to do the job, to train anybody.

We also don’t pay them less than help desk pay.
 
It’s a guarantee with a WWII style training system.

WWII style?!? What does that mean?

In other industries we don’t hire the kid hoping to get enough hours to work the help desk, let alone to do the job, to train anybody.

We also don’t pay them less than help desk pay.

I don't think the airlines are doing this either... People who are training are training, it's not like line captains are taking a few days on the ground to go work in the training department. I would imagine that the training folks are people who have either lost medicals and can't fly, or have decided that they don't like the lifestyle of flying the line, or came from defunct airlines and don't want to start on the bottom rung again.

Yes, a new FO will pick things up from the captains they fly with, but I don't think there's any expectation that a line captain actually do training (with the exception, of course, of the training captains that are there for IOE). They're passing along hints... Or not.

And finally - The pay has gotten way better during this "pilot shortage". I remember looking at regionals 8-10 years ago and seeing first-year numbers like $19,000. Nowadays, it's easily triple that. They're not getting rich, but they're not starving any more either.
 
WWII style?!? What does that mean?

...


I don't think the airlines are doing this either... People who are training are training, it's not like line captains are taking a few days on the ground to go work in the training department. I would imagine that the training folks are people who have either lost medicals and can't fly, or have decided that they don't like the lifestyle of flying the line, or came from defunct airlines and don't want to start on the bottom rung again.

Two bars teaching butter bars. Doesn’t matter if they die, there’s a war on.

Training should be experienced people making an experienced wage. It is in all other industries.

Your trucking company let a one year driver train the newbies when you were there? Pay trainers less for the privilege of training to gain hours? LOL.

And you’d be surprised who’s working in 121 training departments. My line pilot buddies say the sim folks are twenty years their junior and have never flown a line. At one major, anyway.

Says he hasn’t learned anything new about the aircraft or real world technique since a certain other 121 bought them. But the kids at the sim lab enjoy hearing what a 30+ year Captain has to say about how the real airplanes behave compared to their sims. The trainers otherwise wouldn’t know.

We couldn’t get a PC help desk person in the door for less than double what any 121 pays at first, and we definitely wouldn’t let them train anyone. “Better” during the pilot shortage applies to the rest of the economy also. We’d be knocking the underside of six figures plus bennies for a desktop support person who didn’t need training. Not even a low level systems person.

It’s a bad design but nobody’s come up with anything better. Students won’t pay for experience beyond a minor hourly bump.

Just think. When you someday bump to Captain in your Pilates, FAA says I, a solid Skylane driver with zero commercial experience, can send you your next FO. LOL. If that doesn’t worry you, I don’t know what will. :)

Of course they’ll get one solid sim session at Flight Safety or SimCom beforehand. LOL.
 
We couldn’t get a PC help desk person in the door for less than double what any 121 pays at first

I swear, between this comment and an earlier one where you said you make senior legacy captain money - your IT department must pay better than everyone else by a huge margin. :)
 
People who are training are training, it's not like line captains are taking a few days on the ground to go work in the training department.

At my place some do, in a fashion. They will fly the line for a month and work the training center for a month. We call that a job share position. But for the most part you have a valid point


I would imagine that the training folks are people who have either lost medicals and can't fly, or have decided that they don't like the lifestyle of flying the line, or came from defunct airlines and don't want to start on the bottom rung again.

That is true for the academic instructors. What we call the ground school instructors. The sim instructors are all line qualified pilots on the seniority list.

Yes, a new FO will pick things up from the captains they fly with, but I don't think there's any expectation that a line captain actually do training (with the exception, of course, of the training captains that are there for IOE). They're passing along hints... Or not.

LOL. I get my CFI renewed every two years based on the fact that I am a 121 Captain and the fact that or operations manual says in effect that we are to be mentors to our first officers. An instructor of sorts.

And finally - The pay has gotten way better during this "pilot shortage". I remember looking at regionals 8-10 years ago and seeing first-year numbers like $19,000. Nowadays, it's easily triple that. They're not getting rich, but they're not starving any more either.
Ain’t that the truth.
 
I swear, between this comment and an earlier one where you said you make senior legacy captain money - your IT department must pay better than everyone else by a huge margin. :)

Not at all. We lose people to better pay or better bennies every few years. We just lost a ten year lead developer to a startup — he was talking about their pet insurance package when I walked by the gathered crowd after his goodbye lunch. Lol. Pet insurance. Startups. BTDT. Got the t-shirt. :)

You may have misread the other post though. We in IT tend to make *early* legacy Captain money. Not senior. They’ll top out higher than us unless we go into management, and even then they’ll beat us by a bit. Eventually. But we’ll have been sitting above six figures for a decade or more longer. So with decent investing and such...

If we go into security and then security management we’ll keep up with them for the most part. Especially in finance companies or medical. The enormous pain in the butt that both of those industries are, in “security”, sometimes isn’t worth it, but some do it.

I’ve done IT management. It’s... entertaining. Pay is incredibly high though. It’s a headache vs bank account thing. LOL. Ask @jesse - he LOVES doing adult babysitting, don’t you Jesse? Hahaha.

Especially when you get to babysit the other managers. Oh, THAT’s fun. :)

“No, we aren’t doing your pet project that will cost $5M and fail miserably. I’ve done that project before and here’s how it fails...”

The other path that’s nice ... is not keeping up with that silliness (and usually the associated travel) and taking a 100% work from home gig, something one won’t see in aviation.

That’s what my buddy who did security for a financial firm you’d all recognize the name of, finally did. Denver based WFH job for a Silicon Valley security company. They don’t let the pay scale drop too much from there to here, but even with our housing “crisis” driving housing way up, he’s still 20% above Denver market pay and never leaves his home office, other than the occasional rah-rah “We’re all a big family!” meeting in San Fran.

He shattered a leg bone (dumb accident, drove his lower leg bones through his knee and split the thigh bone — holy crap sounded painful) and he didn’t miss much work. He moved to the middle level room of his tri-level and had a laptop and WiFi.

Similarly when I worked for a Valley based company, my pay was above the Denver average.

Of course, I make this sound easy. It’s not. We run lean and mean on staffing. Six companies and only three full time IT guys. We wear a lot of hats. And have to do all of it right. When one of us screws up, it hurts one of the other two. Bad. So... we don’t.

There’s not much of any sort of correlation between that sort of expert and commercial aviation really.

It’s all a game. Figure out what people hate to do and do that in IT and it’ll pay off in spades. Do ALL of it, it really pays off.

Depth of knowledge counts for something, not just a seniority number. I can’t just “bid” for my job because someone else retired, I have to know stuff. The company won’t train me. That’s all on me.

Different worlds. Three people to fix any tech problem six companies have. We don’t do it, all six fail. At our little place, if only one of us is at the office they ARE the IT department. Anything breaks, theyre it.

So the pay is pretty good.

There’s also the whole, “You want me to fix what? I’ve never even heard of that. Who bought it? Why the hell is your department buying things without consulting us firs?”

There’s no aviation equivalent for that, either. Ha. “Go fly the Airbus today...” “But I’m only typed in Boeing stuff!” Hahaha. Frigging multiple time a year occurrence in IT.

Our junior guy didn’t know everything for a number of years. He’s still got some weak areas but he stepped up and learned and earned himself a 20% raise. Part of that was us two old farts both had medical issues going on at the same time.

Welcome to the fire, young man! Ha. I can’t answer your phone call or question from inside an MRI tube! Ha. He’s doing good.

He’ll make for a pretty good crusty old BOFH in a few more years. Tech old guys will recognize that acronym. :) If I had to guess, we almost lost him over pay this year. Too close. I went to bat for him salary wise six years ago, the other old guy handled it this year. We really don’t feel like breaking in a noob right now.
 
^^^ very interesting! Thanks for the write up. I’m finally making okay-ish money now, but as you mentioned it’s a long process to get here. I’m sure I’d be way ahead financially if I went into tech originally. That said it’s nice to see guys like Jordan doing well, at least compared to how it was when I was moving up the ladder. The kid’s only 25, 26?, and it took me the better part of a decade to make what he’s making now. As @flyingcheesehead said, nobody is gonna get rich at the regionals, but at least they’re not starving anymore. :)
 
^^^ very interesting! Thanks for the write up. I’m finally making okay-ish money now, but as you mentioned it’s a long process to get here. I’m sure I’d be way ahead financially if I went into tech originally. That said it’s nice to see guys like Jordan doing well, at least compared to how it was when I was moving up the ladder. The kid’s only 25, 26?, and it took me the better part of a decade to make what he’s making now. As @flyingcheesehead said, nobody is gonna get rich at the regionals, but at least they’re not starving anymore. :)

Agree on the regionals. The aviation world wasn’t just bad pay, companies were imploding when I bailed into tech in the early 90s. Flying a 1900 for ten years and hoping the company didn’t go under just wasn’t possible for this po’ boy back then. :) I was waaaaay too broke. LOL.

Jordan’s path hit at a much better time in the cycle. He’s gonna do well.
 
Agree on the regionals. The aviation world wasn’t just bad pay, companies were imploding when I bailed into tech in the early 90s. Flying a 1900 for ten years and hoping the company didn’t go under just wasn’t possible for this po’ boy back then. :) I was waaaaay too broke. LOL.

Jordan’s path hit at a much better time in the cycle. He’s gonna do well.

The most important factor for a 121 career is date of birth. I'm 41 and was furloughed by my first airline 5 months prior to 9-11 due to a company bankruptcy. I have ridden out 9-11, retirement age change and the recession in 2008 during my career. There was hiring during those years but it was not consistent and the path was not clear regarding who was a good employer vs who wasn't. Over half of the major airlines that were in business when I started are no longer flying.

Even in todays hiring climate the majors are very selective and have an abundance of applicants for their open positions. Most of the demand is in entry level jobs and the people that are starting their career path today in the freshman class are too late to ride the wave. Guys in Jordans position are in the right window. Already a captain at a 121 working on getting the interview at a major with a bunch of years in front of them before retirement. For me, I will have the opportunity to goto a major I just don't know if it will be worthwhile for me to do so. I may very well end up retiring out of a regional. Whatever... better than lots of other jobs out there and so far i have enjoyed the ride.

Regarding the qualification of instructors it varies a lot amongst the 121 carriers. The regional I currently work for only uses line qualified captains for sim instructors. Some of them have lost their medicals but they are the minority as most of us still fly the line on a regular basis to stay connected to what's going on in the wild.
 
Your trucking company let a one year driver train the newbies when you were there? Pay trainers less for the privilege of training to gain hours? LOL.

Not my company, but one of my trainees kept in touch with another guy he went to trucking school with. The other guy went to Werner. The other guy was a trainer for Werner before I cut my trainee loose to his own truck for the first time. :hairraise:

And yes, I fully expect everyone who's bigger than Werner, especially Swift and Schneider, to be doing as bad or worse. Blind leading the blind.

We couldn’t get a PC help desk person in the door for less than double what any 121 pays at first, and we definitely wouldn’t let them train anyone. “Better” during the pilot shortage applies to the rest of the economy also. We’d be knocking the underside of six figures plus bennies for a desktop support person who didn’t need training. Not even a low level systems person.

Wow. Your market must have California-esque cost of living. Around here, only the CIOs and maybe a very few of the upper-echelon managers at a larger organization would be making double what the 121s are paying now. (FWIW, I'm thinking of the number I saw most recently, which was $58,000 for the first year at a regional here.)

Just think. When you someday bump to Captain in your Pilates, FAA says I, a solid Skylane driver with zero commercial experience, can send you your next FO. LOL. If that doesn’t worry you, I don’t know what will. :)

You can send them, but they'll have to go through a lot more training first.

Of course they’ll get one solid sim session at Flight Safety or SimCom beforehand. LOL.

Doubtful. They'll probably go to the airline's own training center.
 
The most important factor for a 121 career is date of birth. I'm 41 and was furloughed by my first airline 5 months prior to 9-11 due to a company bankruptcy. I have ridden out 9-11, retirement age change and the recession in 2008 during my career. There was hiring during those years but it was not consistent and the path was not clear regarding who was a good employer vs who wasn't. Over half of the major airlines that were in business when I started are no longer flying.

Even in todays hiring climate the majors are very selective and have an abundance of applicants for their open positions. Most of the demand is in entry level jobs and the people that are starting their career path today in the freshman class are too late to ride the wave. Guys in Jordans position are in the right window. Already a captain at a 121 working on getting the interview at a major with a bunch of years in front of them before retirement. For me, I will have the opportunity to goto a major I just don't know if it will be worthwhile for me to do so. I may very well end up retiring out of a regional. Whatever... better than lots of other jobs out there and so far i have enjoyed the ride.

Regarding the qualification of instructors it varies a lot amongst the 121 carriers. The regional I currently work for only uses line qualified captains for sim instructors. Some of them have lost their medicals but they are the minority as most of us still fly the line on a regular basis to stay connected to what's going on in the wild.

Excellent and grounded synopsis of the nuances behind the cyclical nature of the industry.
 
Wow. Your market must have California-esque cost of living. Around here, only the CIOs and maybe a very few of the upper-echelon managers at a larger organization would be making double what the 121s are paying now. (FWIW, I'm thinking of the number I saw most recently, which was $58,000 for the first year at a regional here.)



You can send them, but they'll have to go through a lot more training first.



Doubtful. They'll probably go to the airline's own training center.

Yes COL went way up here. Housing problem. Most houses doubled in the last decade. Median is pushing the underside of half a million.

People flying your airplane go to an airline training center?
 
For me, I will have the opportunity to goto a major I just don't know if it will be worthwhile for me to do so. I may very well end up retiring out of a regional. Whatever... better than lots of other jobs out there and so far i have enjoyed the ride.

At only 41 I'd think that it'd be worthwhile, but of course I'm unaware of your specific situation. We're about the same age, and like you I've had ups and downs, but overall I've enjoyed the ride. Working my way up during the aftermath of 9/11 really helped to temper my expectations.
 
At 41 Tarheel Pilot would probably be right about the median age of our new hires lately. I’ve flown with guys in their mid 30s and two new hires that were 55 and 56.
 
At my place, before I left, they were forcing upgrades. Either you upgraded or got fired. If you didn’t pass upgrade then they retrain you and send you back to upgrade classes. They had a guy fail a second time and they seat locked him permanently as an FO. Which at that place is actually awesome besides the lack of TPIC and pay.

There was an argument brewing between the company and the union on whether he would be allowed to flow to mainline AA.
 
Just think. When you someday bump to Captain in your Pilates, FAA says I, a solid Skylane driver with zero commercial experience, can send you your next FO. LOL. If that doesn’t worry you, I don’t know what will. :)

Of course they’ll get one solid sim session at Flight Safety or SimCom beforehand. LOL.

People flying your airplane go to an airline training center?

Ah. I was talking about airlines. Apparently you weren't.

And after you send them to us, they'll get five sessions at SimCom (~10 hours) before they touch an airplane, and a minimum of 100 hours of "IOE". And that's on an airplane that's aimed at the self-flown-old-rich-guy market so is stupid easy to fly. So no, I don't see any problem with you sending us our next FO, provided you taught them their instrument procedures well! And if you didn't, they wouldn't be able to pass the hiring check flight anyway.
 
Ah. I was talking about airlines. Apparently you weren't.

And after you send them to us, they'll get five sessions at SimCom (~10 hours) before they touch an airplane, and a minimum of 100 hours of "IOE". And that's on an airplane that's aimed at the self-flown-old-rich-guy market so is stupid easy to fly. So no, I don't see any problem with you sending us our next FO, provided you taught them their instrument procedures well! And if you didn't, they wouldn't be able to pass the hiring check flight anyway.

Still what kind of system sends you someone as unprepared as I will, in any other business? LOL.

It’s broken.
 
Two bars teaching butter bars. Doesn’t matter if they die, there’s a war on.
That's how it's done now in the AF. In fact, there's a lot of silver bars teaching butter bars. I don't see too many training deaths, or any flying related deaths for that matter. That system in particular seems to be working fine.

Training should be experienced people making an experienced wage. It is in all other industries.
You really seem to be hung up on wages. I don't know how wages equates to quality. Are you saying only the best pilots are the ones making lots of money?

Your trucking company let a one year driver train the newbies when you were there? Pay trainers less for the privilege of training to gain hours? LOL.
There are no one-year pilots training anybody at any Part 121 airline.

And you’d be surprised who’s working in 121 training departments. My line pilot buddies say the sim folks are twenty years their junior and have never flown a line. At one major, anyway.
I don't know what 121 carrier your buddy is at, but at both of the carriers I was at what you're talking about isn't really the case.

At my current company we have two types of instructors. Professionals and Flexes. Professionals (Pros) are typically professional instructors. They don't fly the line. Their sole job is to instruct line pilots. They go through the same hiring process that line pilots go through, and they are all type rated on the aircraft they are instructing on.

Flexes are line pilots who also work in the training center. They typically alternate month to month whether they have a flying line or are working in the training center. These guys and gals are line pilots with quite a few years under their belts before they get hired to be instructors.

Airline training is divided into three parts, Systems, Procedures, and Maneuvers. At our airline, Systems are taught by Pros (and computer based training). They're fine at it. There is really no need to know any operational line flying type stuff during systems class, so Pros work well here.

Procedures training is basically learning all the basic procedures to get the aircraft ready to fly. Cockpit setups, starting engines, etc. Typically, Procedures is done in a cockpit trainer. Basically, it's a simulator that sits on the floor with no motion and no visuals. There is some line type stuff here (standard callouts, IAP procedures, and so on...). This can be taught by either Pros or Flexes, with the company leaning more towards using Pros. This is where slight gaps in knowledge become apparent, but mostly when questions are asked that are really beyond the scope of what the procedures phase is supposed to teach. Procedures isn't really supposed to be line-oriented training, so when a student asks a line-oriented questions, many times the answer is "I'm not sure. You'll learn that in Maneuvers." That can be frustrating, but it's not a show stopper, and by no means sub-standard.

Maneuvers is done in the FFS. This is where the actual flying training is done with emphasis on line operations, and is taught solely by Flexes. They have the operational answers that you may have and an in-depth knowledge of how things work "out on the line" (with one big caveat I'll mention below). They are 99% of the time great instructors who do a superb job of instruction.

Says he hasn’t learned anything new about the aircraft or real world technique since a certain other 121 bought them.
Here was my big caveat for the knowledge gap that plagues many of the Flexes in the training department. International Operations. All these guys are great instructors and do a top notch job. But, one of the draws to the training department is the ability to be home every night with their families. On their fly months, they'll mostly bid out-and-backs which has them home every day, and when they are on a training month, they're working in the training building, and going home every day. I don't blame them. That's a nice perk, especially when you have young kids at home. The desire for that type of schedule typically has them avoiding the longer, international-type flying that we do. So, when the sim scenario is based in Shanghai and the Flex hasn't been there in years, but I've been there twice in the last week, some gaps in knowledge appear. But, I would say that most of the time the Flexes are honest and say up front that I am more knowledgeable in operations there, and if they or do anything wrong that wouldn't really happen that way, to let them know. They want to learn as much as I do, which is what a good pilot should always be doing.

And, I'm not implicating your friend at all, but typically I see this "these young whippersnappers can't teach me anything, I have more time in the flare than they have total" are the ones who just aren't willing to learn. These are the ones who are doing callouts from two flight manual changes ago. The ones who are going to go off script and free wheel some procedure because it makes more sense (to them).

I'm at the point in my career where I'm more senior to most all of my instructors, but every time I go to training, I learn something. Without fail. Something I didn't know. Something I've forgotten. I always take something away with me. The day I go to training and don't learn something is the day I know I'm not paying close enough attention.

But the kids at the sim lab enjoy hearing what a 30+ year Captain has to say about how the real airplanes behave compared to their sims. The trainers otherwise wouldn’t know.
Like I said, our sim trainers are line pilots so they know exactly how the plane flies and the limitations of the simulator. And again (not talking about your buddy specifically), but usually I hear "the plane doesn't fly like that" after the guy in the other seat royally goons something up. All I can do is roll my eyes.

We couldn’t get a PC help desk person in the door for less than double what any 121 pays at first, and we definitely wouldn’t let them train anyone. “Better” during the pilot shortage applies to the rest of the economy also. We’d be knocking the underside of six figures plus bennies for a desktop support person who didn’t need training. Not even a low level systems person.
Again, you seem very fixated on incomes, but "...double what any 121 pays at first..."? We have first year guys making $100,000. You can't get a PC help desk guy for less than $200,000?

It seems like your industry is part of the current generation's frustration of "Five years experience required" for all jobs, even entry level. How is one supposed to get five years experience when all jobs require five years of experience? At least at the airlines there is a pretty clear path (actually several clear paths) to go from student pilot to airline pilot if someone desires. All with checks and gates and training and mentoring along the way. I actually think the system works pretty well. Do some slip through the cracks? Sure. But based on some of the "tech support" I've gotten in the past, that seem to happen in your industry as well.

Just think. When you someday bump to Captain in your Pilates, FAA says I, a solid Skylane driver with zero commercial experience, can send you your next FO. LOL. If that doesn’t worry you, I don’t know what will. :)
I'm not worried. I'm sure you did a fine job, and anything they need to know that you didn't teach them will be taught to them by other instructors more knowledgeable in the areas you were lacking in. That's how it's supposed to work.

Still what kind of system sends you someone as unprepared as I will, in any other business? LOL.
Doctors, nurses, attorneys, plumbers, aircraft mechanics... I think most professions like this have some sort of apprenticeship program. I don't think a new medical school graduate comes right out and is able to remove a spleen without any instruction or supervision.

It’s broken.
Ok. How would you fix it?
 
That's how it's done now in the AF. In fact, there's a lot of silver bars teaching butter bars. I don't see too many training deaths, or any flying related deaths for that matter. That system in particular seems to be working fine.

You really seem to be hung up on wages. I don't know how wages equates to quality. Are you saying only the best pilots are the ones making lots of money?

There are no one-year pilots training anybody at any Part 121 airline.

I don't know what 121 carrier your buddy is at, but at both of the carriers I was at what you're talking about isn't really the case.

At my current company we have two types of instructors. Professionals and Flexes. Professionals (Pros) are typically professional instructors. They don't fly the line. Their sole job is to instruct line pilots. They go through the same hiring process that line pilots go through, and they are all type rated on the aircraft they are instructing on.

Flexes are line pilots who also work in the training center. They typically alternate month to month whether they have a flying line or are working in the training center. These guys and gals are line pilots with quite a few years under their belts before they get hired to be instructors.

Airline training is divided into three parts, Systems, Procedures, and Maneuvers. At our airline, Systems are taught by Pros (and computer based training). They're fine at it. There is really no need to know any operational line flying type stuff during systems class, so Pros work well here.

Procedures training is basically learning all the basic procedures to get the aircraft ready to fly. Cockpit setups, starting engines, etc. Typically, Procedures is done in a cockpit trainer. Basically, it's a simulator that sits on the floor with no motion and no visuals. There is some line type stuff here (standard callouts, IAP procedures, and so on...). This can be taught by either Pros or Flexes, with the company leaning more towards using Pros. This is where slight gaps in knowledge become apparent, but mostly when questions are asked that are really beyond the scope of what the procedures phase is supposed to teach. Procedures isn't really supposed to be line-oriented training, so when a student asks a line-oriented questions, many times the answer is "I'm not sure. You'll learn that in Maneuvers." That can be frustrating, but it's not a show stopper, and by no means sub-standard.

Maneuvers is done in the FFS. This is where the actual flying training is done with emphasis on line operations, and is taught solely by Flexes. They have the operational answers that you may have and an in-depth knowledge of how things work "out on the line" (with one big caveat I'll mention below). They are 99% of the time great instructors who do a superb job of instruction.


Here was my big caveat for the knowledge gap that plagues many of the Flexes in the training department. International Operations. All these guys are great instructors and do a top notch job. But, one of the draws to the training department is the ability to be home every night with their families. On their fly months, they'll mostly bid out-and-backs which has them home every day, and when they are on a training month, they're working in the training building, and going home every day. I don't blame them. That's a nice perk, especially when you have young kids at home. The desire for that type of schedule typically has them avoiding the longer, international-type flying that we do. So, when the sim scenario is based in Shanghai and the Flex hasn't been there in years, but I've been there twice in the last week, some gaps in knowledge appear. But, I would say that most of the time the Flexes are honest and say up front that I am more knowledgeable in operations there, and if they or do anything wrong that wouldn't really happen that way, to let them know. They want to learn as much as I do, which is what a good pilot should always be doing.

And, I'm not implicating your friend at all, but typically I see this "these young whippersnappers can't teach me anything, I have more time in the flare than they have total" are the ones who just aren't willing to learn. These are the ones who are doing callouts from two flight manual changes ago. The ones who are going to go off script and free wheel some procedure because it makes more sense (to them).

I'm at the point in my career where I'm more senior to most all of my instructors, but every time I go to training, I learn something. Without fail. Something I didn't know. Something I've forgotten. I always take something away with me. The day I go to training and don't learn something is the day I know I'm not paying close enough attention.

Like I said, our sim trainers are line pilots so they know exactly how the plane flies and the limitations of the simulator. And again (not talking about your buddy specifically), but usually I hear "the plane doesn't fly like that" after the guy in the other seat royally goons something up. All I can do is roll my eyes.

Again, you seem very fixated on incomes, but "...double what any 121 pays at first..."? We have first year guys making $100,000. You can't get a PC help desk guy for less than $200,000?

It seems like your industry is part of the current generation's frustration of "Five years experience required" for all jobs, even entry level. How is one supposed to get five years experience when all jobs require five years of experience? At least at the airlines there is a pretty clear path (actually several clear paths) to go from student pilot to airline pilot if someone desires. All with checks and gates and training and mentoring along the way. I actually think the system works pretty well. Do some slip through the cracks? Sure. But based on some of the "tech support" I've gotten in the past, that seem to happen in your industry as well.

I'm not worried. I'm sure you did a fine job, and anything they need to know that you didn't teach them will be taught to them by other instructors more knowledgeable in the areas you were lacking in. That's how it's supposed to work.

Doctors, nurses, attorneys, plumbers, aircraft mechanics... I think most professions like this have some sort of apprenticeship program. I don't think a new medical school graduate comes right out and is able to remove a spleen without any instruction or supervision.

Ok. How would you fix it?


That's gonna leave a mark...................:eek: ;)
 
Still what kind of system sends you someone as unprepared as I will, in any other business? LOL.

It’s broken.

They're not unprepared, if you're doing your job.

Your job, in this case, is not to teach them how to fly a TBM in a commercial operation. Your job is to teach them about stalls and angle of attack, maneuvers, the first levels of regulations, how to read charts and plates, the basics of how to fly that are applicable to any aircraft.

SimCom's job is to take a pilot who already knows how to fly, and teach them how to fly a specific aircraft type. They teach turbine engine theory and operation, limits and procedures on the TBM, and that sort of thing. Aircraft-specific stuff.

Finally, "IOE" is there to teach how the actual aircraft flies (as opposed to the sim), and how the company works (paperwork, scheduling, etc).

Basically, we're building a house. You are not the general contractor (really, the FAA is). You are the subcontractor who pours the foundation (Private), and frames the walls (instrument) and roof (commercial). SimCom is the subcontractor who puts in electrical and plumbing, and puts on drywall, siding, and shingles. IOE is the sub who does paint and flooring. Experience is the interior decorator.

Where the analogy falls apart is that in reality, each of those subcontractors is also checking each previous subcontractor's work when it comes to flying.
 
That's how it's done now in the AF. In fact, there's a lot of silver bars teaching butter bars. I don't see too many training deaths, or any flying related deaths for that matter. That system in particular seems to be working fine.

Was talking about WWII, not today. Today those silver bars are professional trainers and they are training in an an initio format from start to finish and condensing it massively so it sticks. There’s also a washout rate in the military and not quite so much on the civilian side. Comparing military training TODAY to WWII where we killed a huge number of students, isn’t what I was talking about at all.

If anything, the civilian side could learn from what the military CHANGED from WWII to now. Getting someone ramped up to fly military jets in the speed and relative safety at very young ages with scientifically proven poorer judgement and brain development, is a very impressive feat of the military programs today.


You really seem to be hung up on wages. I don't know how wages equates to quality. Are you saying only the best pilots are the ones making lots of money?

Not at all. What I’ve been saying is that in all other businesses we hire professional trainers. At much higher wages. The typical CFI is eating ramen on typical CFI wages. Mostly because at least some significant portion of the CFI pool doesn’t see it as a viable career. It’s just time building to move on from. Yes there are CFIs who take it more seriously, no question, but there’s a lot who don’t.

In other businesses we wouldn’t even hire that guy or gal to teach. Because teaching in other businesses is a career job, paid well, and often filled by very experienced people.

The problem in the civilian fly for fun side of things is economics. Nobody will pay what a trainer makes in other businesses in aviation.

I don’t know how to fix it, but it’s broken. For sure. Time building shouldn’t be a goal of an instructor. It should be a good enough job you can make a career of it. It’s really not.


There are no one-year pilots training anybody at any Part 121 airline.

Not talking about 121. Taking about lower rungs. Primary training. Where all the worst possible habits and misconceptions can get stuck in a head for life. One years teaching absolute noobs. Some are good at it. Others aren’t.

...

Cool description of your carrier’s training stuff. Thanks. Definitely not what he’s seeing. And yeah, he’s not the sort who says he won’t learn. If anything the conversation got started because after the business entity change, he says he went from learning on each sim trip, to wondering why they weren’t teaching anything new anymore. They also switched to a crap ton of “read this PDF on a laptop” type stuff that isn’t training; just reading, and he was lamenting this change over dinner and a beer one evening.

Again, you seem very fixated on incomes, but "...double what any 121 pays at first..."? We have first year guys making $100,000. You can't get a PC help desk guy for less than $200,000?

This was about airline jobs in general. Not 121. We hire way above regional starting pay. But we also have to pay close to your 121 starting pay to retain staff. If a specialty area of IT like security or such, halfway $150,000 to someone with only three to five years of experience out of school is commonplace.

It seems like your industry is part of the current generation's frustration of "Five years experience required" for all jobs, even entry level. How is one supposed to get five years experience when all jobs require five years of experience?

Not at all. All we ask is someone knows the tech they put on a resume fairly cold unless they state otherwise. The big difference here is that airplanes are airplanes and they fly the same every year. Tech, especially programming languages, change on a whim nearly every two to three years as to what’s popular, but the ability to learn new languages and understand they’re all built on the same underlying concepts is hard for some and easy for others.

An example might be someone goes to school and the school is using say, Java for all levels of programming classes. So some “get it” during school that Java is operating on underlying principals. Variables, loops, logic controls, etc. And some come out thinking they learned one language and that’s all they’ll need. It’s about (sadly) a 50/50 split because schools don’t flunk many people in these courses. The school wants the money and will happily tell the people they’ll be making bank in IT soon.

@murphey can tell horror stories. She’s been teaching IT recently. It’s bad how many schools take advantage of the folks who don’t quite “get it”. Computers really only do a very limited number of things at the hardware level and the language used to make them do that, really doesn’t matter much. Learning one is as difficult as it gets, but then you’ll need to study and use ten more. The concepts learned under the first one will apply. Only a few really operate significantly differently than the other languages.

At least at the airlines there is a pretty clear path (actually several clear paths) to go from student pilot to airline pilot if someone desires. All with checks and gates and training and mentoring along the way. I actually think the system works pretty well. Do some slip through the cracks? Sure. But based on some of the "tech support" I've gotten in the past, that seem to happen in your industry as well.

The output is decent. It could be better. But that would require the low level teaching to be a real career and not a starve to death step.

I'm not worried. I'm sure you did a fine job, and anything they need to know that you didn't teach them will be taught to them by other instructors more knowledgeable in the areas you were lacking in. That's how it's supposed to work.

Doctors, nurses, attorneys, plumbers, aircraft mechanics... I think most professions like this have some sort of apprenticeship program. I don't think a new medical school graduate comes right out and is able to remove a spleen without any instruction or supervision.

Oh I know. Whatever is missed gets fixed later. Just seems like we could fix it further up front. You really have to love it to do primary work. Many do, but not all.

Ok. How would you fix it?

There isn’t one really. Economically zero to 1500 hours is a no man’s land. It got way better when airlines found there weren’t enough people in the pipeline.

All I’m saying is we have to treat our folks way better than the pre-121 years treat pilots. They show up wanting the beginning of a career and if they get stuck at the low end, a wage that matches the level of time, effort, and money they put in already.

We can’t tell people “Work for the equivalent for all the hours you’re putting in for low wages for a number of years, and hope to move up...” they’ll walk across the street and be hired at a wage that’ll get them well set up for a long time so they can learn and grow.

For reference, even in these “my CFI left for the airlines before I could finish my Private, I’ve been through three now” the economics of insurance and such are that the largest club in the area is paying $21 a flight hour. I believe ground is unpaid or lower than that. That’s $43K if you can fly 40 hours a week no ground. In a city with median houses selling for just under half a million bucks. That’s so low it isn’t even in the ballpark of a professional level job wage here.

You don’t even want to know how many alerts are called each month for aircraft off the runway where the occupants are a student and CFI. It’s appalling. I’ve honestly got no idea why instructors are that bad at teaching go arounds or simple aircraft control on the roll out, but I have my theories. One is VERY inexperienced instructors.

Hell, I’m one. I will admit that readily. But I sought out old instructors with lots of time teaching and paid MUCH more per hour than the local clubs to work with them. But that’s the exception and not the rule in low end training.

We see it here online all the time. “What’s the cheapest way to a pilot’s license?” What we don’t say, but is the truth, is “Find a time builder and train to only minimum standards in a shoddy maintained aircraft, and don’t ask if you’re covered on any insurance. You’re not.”

Someone really wants cheap, there it is. Always available at the low end. Always. Especially for those not planning to go pro. The low end of training in this biz is way too low. But it’s the price the market will bear.

$40K a year in any other business for a pro instructor of a skillet that could kill you? Absolutely laughable. Nobody would do it.

Aviation? Happening during the best hiring I’ve seen in a lifetime.
 
Currently, 3 regional wholly owneds of the same parent company are forcing upgrades. I know at one of them, the well has run dry and they can't even force any more upgrades because they've run out of FO's with 1,000 hours. Many FO's there are flying fast, using their sick bank, doing everything they can to keep their hours down to increase their time as a lineholding FO.
 
This was about airline jobs in general. Not 121. We hire way above regional starting pay. But we also have to pay close to your 121 starting pay to retain staff.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it sounds like you're separating "regional" from "part 121". Regional airlines operate under part 121. Even the 19-seaters, if there are any left, are operated under part 121.
 
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it sounds like you're separating "regional" from "part 121". Regional airlines operate under part 121. Even the 19-seaters, if there are any left, are operated under part 121.

Fair enough. Right. Yes I was making commentary about “airlines” in general and not all pay as well as well as shall we call them, “legacies”. For lack of a better term.
 
As a Captain, a big part of your job is training your FOs! This may involve some occasional feedback/advice on basic stick and rudder stuff. But the majority of it is helping your FOs understand the system and how to operate with safety and efficiency.

Somebody posted a comment about how when it is time to go you go unless you are waiting for your clearance. What made you believe this? There are tons of things to consider and ensure are 100% correct before you ever think about heading out to the airplane. Have you ever noticed flight attendants telling people to sit down and ask you to pay attention to their pre takeoff safety briefing and insist you remain seated? The crew cannot push if passengers are out of their seats.

Do you have the right number of people on board? Do you have accurate weather? If not you have to get it. Do you have enough fuel? Are you going to have to leave bags, cargo, or people if you are overweight? Dispatch does a lot of this BUT they did so well before your flight. Weather may have changed, an earlier flight may have cancelled, thousands of things can and do happen every flight. And it is all on you to make sure everything is legal and safe. Remember, you can delegate performance but you as captain are always accountable. Remember, even commuters operate under 121. Under 121 many of the rules start out with wording along the lines that no carrier will assign AND no pilot will accept. Your employer can self disclose which means if they screw up (bad maintenance, not airworthy aircraft, dispatch negligence, etc.) they can self disclose to the FAA apologize and get off with no penalty while you wind up with a violation and possible loss of your license.

Hope this helps you understand more of what sitting in the left seat involves.

Jon
 
As a Captain, a big part of your job is training your FOs! This may involve some occasional feedback/advice on basic stick and rudder stuff. But the majority of it is helping your FOs understand the system and how to operate with safety and efficiency.

Somebody posted a comment about how when it is time to go you go unless you are waiting for your clearance. What made you believe this? There are tons of things to consider and ensure are 100% correct before you ever think about heading out to the airplane. Have you ever noticed flight attendants telling people to sit down and ask you to pay attention to their pre takeoff safety briefing and insist you remain seated? The crew cannot push if passengers are out of their seats.

Do you have the right number of people on board? Do you have accurate weather? If not you have to get it. Do you have enough fuel? Are you going to have to leave bags, cargo, or people if you are overweight? Dispatch does a lot of this BUT they did so well before your flight. Weather may have changed, an earlier flight may have cancelled, thousands of things can and do happen every flight. And it is all on you to make sure everything is legal and safe. Remember, you can delegate performance but you as captain are always accountable. Remember, even commuters operate under 121. Under 121 many of the rules start out with wording along the lines that no carrier will assign AND no pilot will accept. Your employer can self disclose which means if they screw up (bad maintenance, not airworthy aircraft, dispatch negligence, etc.) they can self disclose to the FAA apologize and get off with no penalty while you wind up with a violation and possible loss of your license.

Hope this helps you understand more of what sitting in the left seat involves.

Jon
Pilots at most carriers can also self disclose and save themselves a violation. ASAP report.
 
Kritchlow, true but if the company does it first then you are hosed. A former dispatcher told me they saw this happen several times. Apparently management used this to get rid of pilots, especially Captains, who were causing problems such as writing up discrepancies at non-maintenance airports resulting in the plane being grounded.
 
Another of their tricks was to have the Chief Pilot call you on a day off and start ripping into you. He would have you on speaker phone with HR present (but not telling you about this) and, if you lost your composure, used disrespectful or profane language you were fired for being insubordinate.
 
Kritchlow, true but if the company does it first then you are hosed. A former dispatcher told me they saw this happen several times. Apparently management used this to get rid of pilots, especially Captains, who were causing problems such as writing up discrepancies at non-maintenance airports resulting in the plane being grounded.
I don’t think that’s the case. If you are not sole source for the offense you can *possibly* get an administrative action, but not a violation.

ETA: This assumes offense was not intentional or drug/booze related etc...
 
Kritchlow, true but if the company does it first then you are hosed. A former dispatcher told me they saw this happen several times. Apparently management used this to get rid of pilots, especially Captains, who were causing problems such as writing up discrepancies at non-maintenance airports resulting in the plane being grounded.
Another of their tricks was to have the Chief Pilot call you on a day off and start ripping into you. He would have you on speaker phone with HR present (but not telling you about this) and, if you lost your composure, used disrespectful or profane language you were fired for being insubordinate.
And this is one reasons airlines are 95% unionized.
 
Another of their tricks was to have the Chief Pilot call you on a day off and start ripping into you. He would have you on speaker phone with HR present (but not telling you about this) and, if you lost your composure, used disrespectful or profane language you were fired for being insubordinate.
If your CP calls you in on a day off and you show up without your union representation standing next to you, you probably deserve to be fired for poor decision making.
 
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