A small amount more accountability for the TSA

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PeterNSteinmetz said:
They do wear badges, though they are not LEOs, so they can be sued. A small step in the right direction

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/08/31/604922/US-appeals-court-sue-lawsuit-TSA
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I other news, TSAs 2021 budget just doubled because no longer will the TSOs work for $15/hr if their LEO counterparts are making in excess of $100k a year when they are subject to the same legal pitfalls, dangers of the job and strenuous work environment. They will also be in need of LEO retirement and “LEAP” coverage effectively tripling the impact to tax payers.
 
Unit74 said:
I other news, TSAs 2021 budget just doubled because no longer will the TSOs work for $15/hr if their LEO counterparts are making in excess of $100k a year when they are subject to the same legal pitfalls, dangers of the job and strenuous work environment. They will also be in need of LEO retirement and “LEAP” coverage effectively tripling the impact to tax payers.
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Technically they should have always been LEO and LEO should have a lot higher education requirements about law than it does.

Carrying deadly force, I’m fine with you making what a Doctor makes. I’m also fine with you not having any protections whatsoever from liability or “malpractice”.

Make it a six figure job with six years in school and years of residency just like the Docs.

Not going to happen, society wants a CHEAP force with special privileges for liability. Not a highly educated and fully personally liable force.

There’s no way to transition to it anyway.

Would be interesting to see what actuaries priced their malpractice coverage at, and what the disqualifiers would be, though.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Or better solution, just eliminate this government agency and let the airlines figure out what is actually needed.
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That's pretty much what we had before 9/11. An airport's biggest airline basically paid for the airport's security back then, and generally paid as little as it could, with pretty much nil training. And look where that got us.

Today's security theater is nothing to cheer. But it could be worse.
 
NoHeat said:
That's pretty much what we had before 9/11. An airport's biggest airline basically paid for the airport's security back then, and generally paid as little as it could, with pretty much nil training. And look where that got us.

Today's security theater is nothing to cheer. But it could be worse.
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Yes, I guess it could always be worse. Prior to 2001, the level of airline security was dictated by the FAA, who mandated metal detectors and the ridiculous questions about your baggage. The FAA began mandating metal detectors in January 1973, about 3 years after hijackings had peaked in 1969.

What I advocate is true privatization. Airlines are fully responsible for liability (they are not now) and security as they and their insurance companies deem appropriate. More details at http://realairlinesecurity.org.
 
NoHeat said:
That's pretty much what we had before 9/11. An airport's biggest airline basically paid for the airport's security back then, and generally paid as little as it could, with pretty much nil training. And look where that got us.

Today's security theater is nothing to cheer. But it could be worse.
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Ok, I’ll bite. Where did it get us? 9/11 was not caused by an airport security screening miss. Small knives were allowed prior to that event.

Heck, the TSA has crappy training, as shown by the 95% detection failures during red team testing.

TSA even eliminated the GED requirement a few years back when they couldn’t keep the lines full due to horribly high turnover.

I don’t see anything but increased theater, longer lines, and genitalia groping with the change.
 
mryan75 said:
Which worked so well on 9/11.
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As noted in post #7 above, we did not have a privatized security system in which the airlines were responsible for determining security policies prior to 2001, not since 1973, when the FAA began dictating what security had to be in place. Actually I suppose one could go even further back in terms of FAA interference with what the private sector would likely want to use. In 1963, the FAA banned the carriage of firearms on aircraft. So it was sort of that point that they began to seriously dictate what the security status of passengers on aircraft would be.

So I suppose one could argue that Federal government's security regulations failed to provide adequate security in 2001.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
As noted in post #7 above, we did not have a privatized security system in which the airlines were responsible for determining security policies prior to 2001, not since 1973, when the FAA began dictating what security had to be in place. Actually I suppose one could go even further back in terms of FAA interference with what the private sector would likely want to use. In 1963, the FAA banned the carriage of firearms on aircraft. So it was sort of that point that they began to seriously dictate what the security status of passengers on aircraft would be.

So I suppose one could argue that Federal government's security regulations failed to provide adequate security in 2001.
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Prior to 2001, did the FAA state that airlines could this much security and absolutely not one bit more?
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
They do wear badges, though they are not LEOs, so they can be sued. A small step in the right direction

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/08/31/604922/US-appeals-court-sue-lawsuit-TSA
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Which is a HUUUUGE issue with our “justice” system. Police should be by default held individually responsible for their actions. If a settlement against a cop is issued it’s crazy that it’s paid by the taxpayers and the pensions/bank accounts/assets of the bad actors are untouched. Hard to say citizens should be held individually accountable for their actions by police who are not held to the same standard despite being more well versed on said laws.




Unit74 said:
I other news, TSAs 2021 budget just doubled because no longer will the TSOs work for $15/hr if their LEO counterparts are making in excess of $100k a year when they are subject to the same legal pitfalls, dangers of the job and strenuous work environment. They will also be in need of LEO retirement and “LEAP” coverage effectively tripling the impact to tax payers.
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Wouldn’t it be easier to just say take $15 or you’re welcome to quit. Frankly standing around with rubber gloves taking toothpaste doesn’t feel like it should warrant much over $15hr.

Has the TSA actually stopped any “terrorists”? Would any of this have stopped 9/11?


Also crazy how LEOs make that much for the low entry requirements and job profile, especially compared to the average firefighter/emt-p
 
James331 said:
Which is a HUUUUGE issue with our “justice” system. Police should be by default held individually responsible for their actions. If a settlement against a cop is issued it’s crazy that it’s paid by the taxpayers and the pensions/bank accounts/assets of the bad actors are untouched. Hard to say citizens should be held individually accountable for their actions by police who are not held to the same standard despite being more well versed on said laws.


Also crazy how LEOs make that much for the low entry requirements and job profile, especially compared to the average firefighter/emt-p
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Police officers ARE held accountable and if you have never been on the receiving end of asset declaration, you would never understand what it really means.

How many professions can you name that if you screw up or make a bad choice once, which was a snap decision under stress, you will end up in jail, crucified in the media and never had a decent job again? How many firefighters do you know that have to put on a bullet proof vest and kiss their spouse goodbye, perhaps for the last time, every time they go to work? Also, I went through and was a working EMT in an ER. One semester in jr college. Yea, that's a joke. About all you can do is CPR and drive an ambulance. I mostly changed sheets and cleaned up body fluids in the ER.
 
Unit74 said:
Police officers ARE held accountable and if you have never been on the receiving end of asset declaration, you would never understand what it really means.

How many professions can you name that if you screw up or make a bad choice once, which was a snap decision under stress, you will end up in jail, crucified in the media and never had a decent job again? How many firefighters do you know that have to put on a bullet proof vest and kiss their spouse goodbye, perhaps for the last time, every time they go to work? Also, I went through and was a working EMT in an ER. One semester in jr college. Yea, that's a joke. About all you can do is CPR and drive an ambulance. I mostly changed sheets and cleaned up body fluids in the ER.
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Thing is that’s the exception not the rule, any settlement should first come out of the cops personal assets.

And LOTS, frankly on the list of dangerous jobs cops arnt that high up there.
FD take much more of a toll vs a cop, and if you were a EMT in the ED you should know that’s quite different than a emt-P working on a rig or a flight medic.


Also you know you just asked that question on a forum of PILOTS right, if I make a “small mistake”, yeah lol
 
James331 said:
Thing is that’s the exception not the rule, any settlement should first come out of the cops personal assets.

And LOTS, frankly on the list of dangerous jobs cops arnt that high up there.

Also you know you just asked that question on a forum of PILOTS right lol
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Go on a ride along.... You need some perspective.
 
mryan75 said:
Prior to 2001, did the FAA state that airlines could this much security and absolutely not one bit more?
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Good question. I don't know if they required precisely certain procedures. It appears from a brief search that the FAA mandated a set of specific items, including the magnetometers. One would really have to go read the regulations to know.

Of course, when the Federal government takes over a function it tends to disincentivized the market to provide any other solutions. People figure, well we are doing what they say we have to and not think any further about it.

This disconnect between making the money from flying planes and the responsibility for the damage they may cause is even larger today. The airlines are now insulated even further from liability for the use of their planes as weapons or accidents with the liability limits which were put in place in 2001.

There are those who would argue that the attacks on Sept 11 2001 were as successful as they were because of not only the failures in the FAA mandated security procedures, but in addition the failure of various government investigative agencies to coordinate their information to foil the attackers.

Of course, hindsight is always 20/20. I tend to think it is better to recognize that as an exceptional attack that cannot be repeated. We should focus the resources available to try and ensure the safety of the traveling public on things that might actually help, rather than the ridiculous security theater of the TSA.
 
Unit74 said:
Go on a ride along.... You need some perspective.
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Been there, biggest issue for me was sitting in a car that long.

Sorry but it’s not what it’s marked to the public as.

But lest I stand in the way of anyone’s false idols.
 
James331 said:
Thing is that’s the exception not the rule, any settlement should first come out of the cops personal assets.
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Yes, lot's of examples of LEOs literally getting away with killing people. Consider the Brailsford case in Mesa -- after shooting Daniel Shaver he was recently rehired briefly so that he could be eligible for a pension!
 
Unit74 said:
How many professions can you name that if you screw up or make a bad choice once, which was a snap decision under stress, you will end up in jail, crucified in the media and never had a decent job again? How many firefighters do you know that have to put on a bullet proof vest and kiss their spouse goodbye, perhaps for the last time, every time they go to work?
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While this is true, that must just not actually be an issue very often. Being an LEO is fairly far down on the list of dangerous professions. I believe it is actually now SAFER to be a police officer than at most times in the past.

That is consistent, from a balance of force perspective, with an increase in the number of shootings of citizens by police as well. As you bias LEOs through equipment and training to protect themselves, rather than citizens, they are going to shoot more citizens while being hurt themselves less frequently.
 
LODD Brief Statistics Overview

85Line of Duty DeathsTHIS YEAR

164Line of Duty DeathsLAST YEAR

921Line of Duty DeathsLAST FIVE YEARS

1,708Line of Duty DeathsLAST TEN YEARS

That is for working cops.

The aviation side is too convoluted, but open the excel for raw data. Bottom line is that GA accounts for around 2/3 of all accidents, Experimentals are 25% of that and about 75% of all pilot deaths are GA personal flights, not for hire or compensation. Commercial pilots have a higher rate of internal cancers and about on par with cops and skin cancers. So trying to lump in ALL pilots to a pool is cherry picking facts when discussing for compensation employment. Its has to be commercial pilots on-duty deaths vs law enforcement on duty deaths. The numbers speak for themselves.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/data/Pages/AviationDataStats2016.aspx


Peter- Back up your conjecture if you can. I'd like to take a look.
 
Rate vs count is meaningful. The data says:

1. Fishers and Related Fishing Workers
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 100.0 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 41 fatal injuries, 120 nonfatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Transportation incidents
> Median annual wage: $28,310

2. Logging Workers
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 87.3 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 55 fatal injuries, 350 nonfatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Contact with objects and equipment
> Median annual wage: $38,840

3. Aircraft Pilots and Flight Engineers
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 51.3 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 59 fatal injuries, 630 nonfatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Transportation incidents
> Median annual wage: $111,930

4. Roofers
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 45.2 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 91 fatal injuries, 2,810 nonfatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Falls, slips, trips
> Median annual wage: $38,970

5. Refuse and Recyclable Material Collectors
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 34.9 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 30 fatal injuries, 1,340 nonfatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Transportation incidents
> Median annual wage: $36,160

6. Structural Iron and Steel Workers
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 33.3 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 14 fatal injuries, 1,280 nonfatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Falls, slips, trips
> Median annual wage: $52,610

7. Driver/Sales Workers and Truck Drivers
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 26.9 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 987 fatal injuries, 77,470 nonfatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Transportation incidents
> Median annual wage: $37,610

8. Farmers, Ranchers, and Other Agricultural Managers
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 24.0 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 258 fatal injuries, 180 nonfatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Transportation incidents
> Median annual wage: $69,620

9. First-Line Supervisors of Landscaping, Lawn Service, and Groundskeeping Workers
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 21.0 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 53 fatal injuries, 1,040 nonfatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Contact with objects and equipment
> Median annual wage: $47,030

10. Electrical Power-Line Installers and Repairers
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 18.6 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 26 fatal injuries, 1,710 nonfatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Exposure to harmful substances or environments
> Median annual wage: $69,380

11. Miscellaneous Agricultural Workers
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 17.7 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 154 fatal injuries, 13,500 nonfatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Transportation incidents
> Median annual wage: $23,710

12. First-Line Supervisors of Construction Trades and Extraction Workers
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 17.4 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 121 fatal injuries, 5,320 nonfatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Falls, slips, trips
> Median annual wage: $64,070

13. Helpers, Construction Trades
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 17.3 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 11 fatal injuries, 2,660 nonfatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Falls, slips, trips
> Median annual wage: $30,120

14. Maintenance and Repair Workers, General
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 16.6 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 87 fatal injuries, 23,200 nonfatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Falls, slips, trips
> Median annual wage: $37,670

15. Grounds Maintenance Workers
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 15.9 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 191 fatal injuries, 13,310 nonfatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Falls, slips, trips
> Median annual wage: $28,110

16. Construction Laborers
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 14.3 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 259 fatal injuries, 21,760 nonfatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Falls, slips, trips
> Median annual wage: $34,530

17. First-Line Supervisors of Mechanics, Installers, and Repairers
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 13.1 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 35 fatal injuries, 3,540 nonfatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Transportation incidents
> Median annual wage: $64,780

18. Police and Sheriff’s Patrol Officers
> Fatal injuries in 2017: 12.9 per 100,000 workers
> Total: 95 fatal injuries
> Most common fatal accidents: Violence and other injuries by persons or animals
> Median annual wage: $61,050

https://247wallst.com/special-report/2019/01/02/25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-2/4/
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
While this is true, that must just not actually be an issue very often. Being an LEO is fairly far down on the list of dangerous professions. I believe it is actually now SAFER to be a police officer than at most times in the past.

That is consistent, from a balance of force perspective, with an increase in the number of shootings of citizens by police as well. As you bias LEOs through equipment and training to protect themselves, rather than citizens, they are going to shoot more citizens while being hurt themselves less frequently.
Click to expand...


Yup, also they have no duty to actually protect you

"The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that the police did not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm"



https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/...ot-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html
 
NoHeat said:
That's pretty much what we had before 9/11. An airport's biggest airline basically paid for the airport's security back then, and generally paid as little as it could, with pretty much nil training. And look where that got us.

Today's security theater is nothing to cheer. But it could be worse.
Click to expand...

It got us shorter lines, less taxes, and the same REAL level of “safety”. I say we go pre 9/11 on ALL the things.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
I’d be OK keeping the hardened cockpit doors, as that was an effective and cost appropriate solution.
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I've wondered about even the doors sometimes though. For example, was the GermanWings crash enabled partly by other people not being able to get back into a locked and hardened cockpit? What about MH370?

I believe the doors also weigh more and so cost something in fuel I assume. Basically you won't be able to execute an attack like those in September 2001 anymore because the passengers and crew will attack you, hardened doors or not. Not sure that tradeoff has been considered well enough to know.
 
James331 said:
Yup, also they have no duty to actually protect you

"The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that the police did not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm"



https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/...ot-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html
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That is correct. They owe no one person a duty of care.

Also, the stats above are wonky and don't add up. Raw data required. It would appear the Pilot deaths are from gross stats, not actual working pilots. When they lump in bugsmashers getting hamburgers or doing aerobatics in Icons, the numbers sky rocket to those stats. But not commercial operators. We are talking about dangerous jobs, not dangerous hobbies.

upload_2019-9-7_19-54-42.png
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:

I believe the doors also weigh more and so cost something in fuel I assume. Basically you won't be able to execute an attack like those in September 2001 anymore because the passengers and crew will attack you, hardened doors or not. Not sure that tradeoff has been considered well enough to know.
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The numbers who remember 9/11............. Are getting smaller and smaller. In an ever pacifist-evolving society thanks to the school systems, I fear the next attack will be met with no resistance from the youngest of our able-bodied travelers; someone who has never had to defend themselves.... won't.

As a side note, I found this article rather revealing. Use of force is up in DC by 20%. Aghast....public outrage. Yet crime is down, officer assaults down and fatal encounters significantly reduced from police shooting. Hmm.... Use of force SOONER leads to less violent force LATER and a reduction in trigger pulls from the cops? That's What I read at least. I guess it depends on the shade of glasses one is wearing.

https://dcist.com/story/19/03/25/d-...increase-in-use-of-force-incidents-last-year/
 
NoHeat said:
That's pretty much what we had before 9/11. An airport's biggest airline basically paid for the airport's security back then, and generally paid as little as it could, with pretty much nil training. And look where that got us.
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You think if the government was doing the screening on 9/11 things would have been different?

I am so tired of hearing this ridiculous argument pop up. I've been hearing it for 18 years and it's always been stupid. Do you want the government to fly your plane for you too? Look how many crashes have been caused by pilots employed by airlines. Surely it would be safer if all airline cockpits were staffed with FAA employees.
 
Unit74 said:
The numbers who remember 9/11............. Are getting smaller and smaller. In an ever pacifist-evolving society thanks to the school systems, I fear the next attack will be met with no resistance from the youngest of our able-bodied travelers; someone who has never had to defend themselves.... won't.
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The correct response to that would be to place force on board (in addition to whatever other measures they would like to take on the ground) all paid for by the airline.

Cops get nice overtime checks at major league stadiums year-round, paid for by those businesses patrons. Even the local bars do it.

Air travel should be no different. Whether deputized officers or rent a cops the airlines buy. Whatever level of security they want and their customers will pay for...
 
Unit74 said:
The numbers who remember 9/11............. Are getting smaller and smaller. In an ever pacifist-evolving society thanks to the school systems, I fear the next attack will be met with no resistance from the youngest of our able-bodied travelers; someone who has never had to defend themselves.... won't.

As a side note, I found this article rather revealing. Use of force is up in DC by 20%. Aghast....public outrage. Yet crime is down, officer assaults down and fatal encounters significantly reduced from police shooting. Hmm.... Use of force SOONER leads to less violent force LATER and a reduction in trigger pulls from the cops? That's What I read at least. I guess it depends on the shade of glasses one is wearing.

https://dcist.com/story/19/03/25/d-...increase-in-use-of-force-incidents-last-year/
Click to expand...


Lol, “The numbers who remember 9/11............. Are getting smaller and smaller“
BA HA HA HA!

Dude, I can’t go 24 hours without hearing some Elmer Fudd type going off about the “terrorists” or some nonsense and how if we all give just a LITTLE BIT MORE of our rights, ya know for the children and all, everything will be sunshine and lolly pops


How about NO, if anything we need a push back against big goverment and it getting it’s nose where it has no business.
 
Unit74 said:
As a side note, I found this article rather revealing. Use of force is up in DC by 20%. Aghast....public outrage. Yet crime is down, officer assaults down and fatal encounters significantly reduced from police shooting. Hmm.... Use of force SOONER leads to less violent force LATER and a reduction in trigger pulls from the cops?
Click to expand...

Of course the residents of DC are largely disarmed and unable to defend themselves.
 
Unit74 said:
The numbers who remember 9/11............. Are getting smaller and smaller. In an ever pacifist-evolving society thanks to the school systems, I fear the next attack will be met with no resistance from the youngest of our able-bodied travelers; someone who has never had to defend themselves.... won't.
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There is a certain truth in this. Fewer people probably know how to defend themselves now. Look at all the people in the Pulse night club shooting who used their phones to take videos of the attack, rather than throwing bottles and their phones at the attacker. That guy should have been being hit in the head by a virtual rain of bottles, furniture etc.
 
I don’t think the self defense thing is anywhere near as important as not taking statistics from a city or a police department that tops the homicide lists for decades, very seriously. Clearly there’s a systemic violent crime problem at play there and law enforcement is either really bad at their job or hampered by politics.

Nuke the high crime politically hampered PDs from the death lists, and the job looks even safer. Not perfectly safe, but still safer than whole bunches of other jobs.

Even just being assigned to suburbia in these cities raises your chances back to where you can probably buy life insurance. Many professions can’t. :)
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Good question. I don't know if they required precisely certain procedures. It appears from a brief search that the FAA mandated a set of specific items, including the magnetometers. One would really have to go read the regulations to know.

Of course, when the Federal government takes over a function it tends to disincentivized the market to provide any other solutions. People figure, well we are doing what they say we have to and not think any further about it.
Click to expand...
Which is another way of saying that private airlines, given responsibility for airport security, do the absolute minimum required. Which is why airport security should not be the purview of the airlines, but rather government.

And the (obvious) answer to my question was "no".
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I’m former LEO and frankly my experience is more in line with James. Not sure where you work that holds their officers to such high standards of accountability but that’s the way it should be.
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Wait, I hope that you are not disagreeing with Unit74. If Unit74 is wrong...then..what hope is there for the rest of us? I ask you to reconsider your more balanced perspective to make it more in line with Unit74’s. It can be done. I recall agreeing with her, (him?) twice so far. I wrote down the dates and times.
 
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