Airline Pilots and Security

denverpilot said:
Fair point.

But I don’t see a single “Something that makes passenger experiences better” in that list, so what was the point of sharing it... in this context anyway?

“Recommendation Committee to Tell Our Owners Not to Stuff Humans into Seats that Place Knees in Nose or Where Shoulders Overlap Four Inches”.

LOL. It’d be a start. The worker groups need a little outward facing hint that they “officially” care, even if swat pitch and width recommendations are ignored. That one is hard though because it comes with the implied “We’ll take less profit to make it better...” which isn’t what a negotiation team wants brought up. I get it.

But I also doubt you’ll be getting any chance anytime soon to stand at the cockpit door and say, “Hey, did you like our new better security screening process and those nice big new seats? I’m glad you spent $200 more on us! We figured out what you like!” Lol.

Oh well. Status quo.
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I only put that stuff in there to answer the question (that my or may not have come up from someone later) about "well if they aren't doing that, what the heck are they doing?" Might have been over-kill. Also, might stir someone to take an interest in some issues they may not know about - flag of convenience is a big one that most don't understand or know about. This is one popular video about it:

I have a pretty small sample size of my experience relative to the airline industry - I only flew the line for a year before being put on full-time orders back in Louisiana but I will be going back to Delta next year. Anyway, most of the time we (pilots) did take a min or two to talk to the folks who spent the extra money on us (business and first class tickets) when flying internationally. One of the pilots would usually cruise through the first class and if anyone made eye contact or didn't obviously look down at their nose at "the help" talking to them, I would say thanks for flying with us, we appreciate you, what can we do to make you more comfortable, etc. The domestic flying I did was so jam-packed-rushed-to-the-point-of-ridiculousness that you barely had time to do a fast runaround the airplane and get your butt in the seat before we were at push time. There were definitely times we didn't have time to talk to anyone before getting to work.
 
EvilEagle said:
I only put that stuff in there to answer the question (that my or may not have come up from someone later) about "well if they aren't doing that, what the heck are they doing?" Might have been over-kill. Also, might stir someone to take an interest in some issues they may not know about - flag of convenience is a big one that most don't understand or know about. This is one popular video about it:
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You might be surprised to know I knew about that one and most of them on the list. I’ve been watching the biz from afar since I decided not to go into it in the early 90s. Well technically I worked for Continental for a while, but not as a pilot. I got to hang out with the other poor folk on the ramp. LOL.

Mindless hard work. Better money than flipping burgers. And back then, usable flight bennies. I didn’t use them much. I had two other jobs and school mixed in. But some of those guys were winning on a beach in Mexico almost every day off they had. For many it was the only reason to work that hard in bad weather.

I have heard that it’s really hard to use those bennies anymore with computerized loads and crammed full aircraft. But man we busted our butts back then to try to make those all important (back then) on time numbers.

Long time ago in a galaxy far far away, but we tried. We even pushed the jets too far across the alley to try to block United in. LOL. Or at least make sure our guys got out of the alley first. Ground controller didn’t have any choice hahaha.

I just don’t see it getting any better for passengers.

Airlines let the TSA happen without a fight, all scared of bankruptcy after 9/11 that nobody would fly anymore. So shortsighted. Needed big loans to survive the downtime. Etc. Let fear make business decisions.

Worst financial decisions anyone ever makes are when they’re scared.

Oh well; all I can really be thankful for is that I don’t travel weekly anymore to make a living.

The criticism might sound like I want airlines to fail. It’s the exact opposite. They’re not critical enough of themselves anymore.

Never flew Delta much when I was traveling. Just wasn’t the right hubs. I did always want to taxi on Dixie though. :)

It’s truly an awful business. People want to pay bus fare and be treated like something better than self-loading cargo. We paid crap tons to have refundable and changeable tickets because of how we were dispatched, but even our $1200 a flight tickets couldn’t garner anything but pretzels by the end of my flying for a living days.
 
Yep, it's hard to use any travel benefits anymore. Just commuting to work can be a real challenge. Other than non-holiday/during school year international travel, I always buy tickets for my wife and kid. I can usually get where we're going by jumpseating or non-rev'ing but since the little one came along, we've been buying tickets so mommy gets some help. Most of the time we just take the Bo. :)
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
OK, I'm clueless. Can you provide a hint or clue?
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I had thought there were more of these...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_airliner_bombing_attacks
9 September 1949 Canadian Pacific Air Lines In-flight bombing Joseph-Albert Guay packed a bomb made of dynamite in the baggage carried by his wife. The explosion occurred after take off, leading to the death of all 19 passengers and 4 crew on the Douglas DC-3. Guay was tried and sentenced to death by hanging on 12 January 1951.

1 November 1955 United Airlines Flight 629 Jack Gilbert Graham packed a bomb containing dynamite in a suitcase carried by his mother. The explosion and crash killed all 39 passengers and 5 crew members.

16 November 1959 National Airlines Flight 967 A Douglas DC-7B aircraft disappeared from radar over the Gulf of Mexico; 10 bodies and scattered debris were recovered but the main wreckage was never found. There has been speculation that the plane was brought down by a bomb; one theory is that a convicted criminal tricked another man into boarding in his place with luggage containing a bomb, so that his wife could collect on his life insurance. No probable cause for the crash was found.

17 April 1986 El Al Flight 016 A Semtex bomb and detonator were found by El Al security at Heathrow Airport in the luggage of an oblivious pregnant Irish passenger en route to Tel Aviv. Her absent fiancé, Jordanian national Nezar Hindawi, attempted to flee to Syria but was arrested in London and convicted of planting the bomb.
 
Hey since we’re all pilots, can we get KCM access? It still annoys me that precheck lines are generally longer than normal lines now that everyone has signed up and TSA, in their genius, hasn’t expanded the number of precheck lanes. Add to that that someone can pay extra for the TSA version of Disney Fastpass and cut the line, and you really start to scratch your head.

So my proposal is that once I go through CHL and Global Entry background checks, I also get KCM access. No more lines!
 
I flew containers and not complainers for thirty years but prior to that, back in the good old days where the crews really did care about the customers, I flew passenger airlines. After 9-11 I was commuting to work but prior to KCM and prior to FFDO and there was an American MD-80 crew going through TSA while I went through..in uniform. This is when "random" selections were made for enhanced search and low and behold the TSA agent decided that the female First Officer on the AA flight needed enhanced searching. The female TSA agent was taking EVERY item of the young ladies possessions out of her suitcase while the rest of the crew stood by. The F/O asked the TSA agent exactly what was she looking for and without hesitation the TSA agent said "Anything that would let you get into the cockpit"....there was astonished silence among the airline crew when the F/O held up her key to the cockpit door and said "Do you mean like this? The key to the (**(&& door? The TSA agent said "you can't have that" and the F/O replied then who is going to fly the (*&* plane? By this time the Captain stepped forward and blocked the TSA agent and said close your bag and let's go. The TSA agent said I will call the police and the Captain said call them and your supervisor. Both of whom were already headed that way. After much yelling and screaming all of which the TSA agent still didn't understand the crew was sent on their way.
True story... I was there.

The FFDO program was even more "fun".
 
MD11Pilot, I think you're right on that one.
 
Those TSA morons should have been arrested for interfering with a flight crew.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 
I think it is a strange decision to try and prevent all weapons, bombs, etc. at some point mid airport, and then lock the general public into an airplane, with only flight crew. Can’t think of many other places where this is a case, no dedicated security personnel, and crew has to handle any bad actors, and then...they give them alcohol.

TSA does not have a great record, according to their own testing. In most airports, once you clear security you are free to wander around shops, etc, and there usually are no more security checks.
So right there, Someone with co conspirator could get passed weapons, etc. those stores in the secured area have utility knives and all kinds of things they need to have for their business, so even without a conspirator someone could get ahold of scissors, box cutter, etc in a bookstore or business if the clerks aren’t observant.

That they have no visible (only random undercover on some flights) security on the actual airplane is odd. I know it is mostly because of lost revenue, and employment costs, but even night clubs, shopping malls, have visible security and don’t leave it up to regular untrained employees to handle troublemakers, terrorists, whatever.

Regularly see in newspapers where passenger, sometime very large ones, go amok in a plane and the crew has to try to subdue them, and often passengers also have to get involved. To me that is very strange.

the model seems to be “we try and catch everything at one point, which is not actually just pre boarding, using a system that it is known to not have a great success rate, and then...we’ll, that’s really all we can do right? Hope for the best”
 
LongRoadBob said:
TSA does not have a great record, according to their own testing. In most airports, once you clear security you are free to wander around shops, etc, and there usually are no more security checks.
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In terms of this point specifically, here is a website which points out how to construct weapons with items that can be purchased after the TSA security checkpoint - http://terminalcornucopia.com

I don't believe there are any security experts, not employed by the TSA or DHS, who think the TSA is anything more than security theater - not effective but makes some people feel better. And for that we pay $8 billion per year as well as all the hassles mentioned near the start of this thread.

My own opinion is that the solution to the complex tradeoff between security and convenience should basically be controlled by the airlines in a market driven process. See http://realairlinesecurity.org .
 
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