Overflying Chicago IFR to Milwaukee

sarangan

sarangan

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Andrew, CFI-I
Coming from the southeast, a direct route to Milwaukee would take me well over Lake Michigan. Direct to ORD and then to MKE would only add a handful of miles, and keep me within gliding distance from land. I plan to fly this IFR, but under VFR conditions. What is the best fix and altitude to file to minimize chances of being re-routed over Chicago? I suppose I could always cancel and fly VFR above the class B (10k ceiling), but I'd prefer not be that high either. I would like to hear from anyone who has flown a similar route over Chicago.
 
Used to fly MKE to ATL a lot and they (ATC) took us right over ORD, which makes sense as airline flights are climbing out or descending into ORD. I'd file over ORD and see what happens. @Radar Contact works there so he'll have a good idea.
 
Never gone North-South past Chicago, but have gone East-West. They usually send us to KELSI on the southwest side to keep us well clear of the Class B. Usually the traffic conflict on that side are the in-bounds to Midway. Going to Detroit once, they also made us go KELSI to Knox VOR. Chicago Approach is pretty protective of their airspace.
 
Ain't gonna happen. I agree with the previous poster. Your choices are KELSI or way out over the lake.
I had this discussion with ATC while approaching Chicago airspace one day:

ME: Is there any altitude I can request that will avoid me having to go to KELSI (I was at 10,000 at the time).
ATC: Let me check (slight pause). Nope.
ME: OK, here's what we're going to do. I'm going to climb up to 10,5, cancel IFR and you'll give me flight following.
ATC: That will work. Cancellation received.

VFR they don't seem to have any problem with you noodling on the edges of the class B, even when it means they have to hold the departure climbs out of Midway and ORD.
 
Cancel and go over the top. STL was a bit irritated with me one time when I did that after he told me they don't let small GA transients in their airspace.
 
flyingron said:
VFR they don't seem to have any problem with you noodling on the edges of the class B, even when it means they have to hold the departure climbs out of Midway and ORD.
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Not much they can do about that as long as you are out of their airspace. I have run under the south edge of the Class B once VFR (stayed low to avoid crazy headwinds...giggity), but that is about it. Did see a lot of traffic doing that though (and probably a lot I didn't see), not too sure about doing that again.
 
Those strategies work well when you can get above, the "local" bravo I have to deal with is ATL, and the top is 12,500. Makes it impractical to go VFR over the top.
 
sarangan said:
Coming from the southeast, a direct route to Milwaukee would take me well over Lake Michigan. Direct to ORD and then to MKE would only add a handful of miles, and keep me within gliding distance from land. I plan to fly this IFR, but under VFR conditions. What is the best fix and altitude to file to minimize chances of being re-routed over Chicago? I suppose I could always cancel and fly VFR above the class B (10k ceiling), but I'd prefer not be that high either. I would like to hear from anyone who has flown a similar route over Chicago.
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Is there a particular reason you want to do that part IFR?

I ask because IFR, you have two options: Either fly it at 16,000 feet or more, or go around. The shortest reliable method to go around is via T265. Also, be aware that Rockford Approach will likely reroute you to BAE, and then Milwaukee Approach will cancel that. (I have no idea why they do that, but they do it on pretty much every flight.)

If you're merely trying to get to Milwaukee and you're going to be in VMC, the best way to do it is to cancel IFR and go up the lakeshore at 2000 feet (beware of the stadium TFRs that stick out into the lake, though). File your IFR plan to Gary (KGYY), and put in the comments that you're going up the lakeshore. When you get handed off to Chicago Approach, cancel IFR immediately. You can generally get flight following up the lakeshore these days, 128.2 on the south side and you'll get handed off to 120.55 somewhere between downtown and the temple. On your return trip, file IFR from Gary and get flight following down the shore - When you check in on 128.2, let them know you have an IFR plan on file from Gary and they'll usually give you your clearance before you get there.

I've been flying from southern Wisconsin for 15 years, and I've gotten through the ORD Bravo IFR exactly twice.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Not much they can do about that as long as you are out of their airspace. I have run under the south edge of the Class B once VFR (stayed low to avoid crazy headwinds...giggity), but that is about it. Did see a lot of traffic doing that though (and probably a lot I didn't see), not too sure about doing that again.
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No, they can't stop you, but it would see like it would be easier to have you under positive control (either a VFR in class B or IFR) at a lower altitude than having you in the middle of the departure path of a whole bunch of planes. I heard them issuing clearances telling airliners to stop at 9000 where I was at 10,5. Amusingly, they missed one and he got a TCAS RA telling him to descend away from me (though I had him positively in sight).
 
Bill Jennings said:
Those strategies work well when you can get above, the "local" bravo I have to deal with is ATL, and the top is 12,500. Makes it impractical to go VFR over the top.
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I call 10 North of RYY at 5500 ft., often they give me a squawk code and have me fly right over the center of ATL, done it at night also, it's very beautiful in VFR looking at all the lights at ATL and the traffic, with all the runways E & W, over the center leaves you completely away from the traffic
 
Gary Austin said:
I call 10 North of RYY at 5500 ft., often they give me a squawk code and have me fly right over the center of ATL, done it at night also, it's very beautiful in VFR looking at all the lights at ATL and the traffic, with all the runways E & W, over the center leaves you completely away from the traffic
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Yep, I go pretty much direct over the top of class B airports all up and down the east coast (the exception pretty much is BOS and perhaps EWR). Certainly been over the top at IAD, DCA (well, back when you could), ADW, BWI, PHL, JFK, ATL. CLT is a bit snarky for me because their approach path is N/S and that's always the direction I'm travelling. (Since I'm due north of CLT).
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Is there a particular reason you want to do that part IFR?
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No particular reason for IFR except it would be significantly easier navigate through the class B, C and D airspaces nearby without having to worry about calling each and every one of them.
 
sarangan said:
No particular reason for IFR except it would be significantly easier navigate through the class B, C and D airspaces nearby without having to worry about calling each and every one of them.
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OK. If you do the lakeshore thing, you can easily go over Gary's D and under the Bravo, and then pull the same thing on the north side, staying under the Bravo and over Waukegan although that's a tight squeeze since there's only 400' vertically between them for a couple miles.

But, they're not going to help you much - They're going to send you out and around via T265 (if you're GPS equipped, KELSI V9 JVL V63 if you're not), and you'll never actually talk to Chicago Approach. You'll be with South Bend Approach, Chicago Center, Rockford Approach, and Milwaukee Approach, and you won't go near any airspace except the Rockford TRSA.

But, it's much shorter and a much neater view to do the lakeshore VFR route. :)
 
Gary Austin said:
I call 10 North of RYY at 5500 ft., often they give me a squawk code and have me fly right over the center of ATL, done it at night also, it's very beautiful in VFR looking at all the lights at ATL and the traffic, with all the runways E & W, over the center leaves you completely away from the traffic
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Huh, ATL won't let me inside the Bravo for love nor money, IFR, VFR, T Route, high, low, nothing. Next time I'll just drop FF until I get past; at least when VFR they mostly just tell me to remain clear but sometimes ask me to descend while still a couple of hours from my destination, at an altitude they and I both know won't work for the rest of the trip.
 
I fly out of an airport in southern WI. Here’s my strategy when flying in from the south... file to Campbell or Waukegan. Then, when I get the handoff to Chicago approach I’ll generally get a fairly direct routing through the B over ORD at 6k. Then, I either change my desitination with Chicago if IMC, or cancel if VMC. Easy peasy.
 
Hank S said:
Huh, ATL won't let me inside the Bravo for love nor money, IFR, VFR, T Route, high, low, nothing. Next time I'll just drop FF until I get past; at least when VFR they mostly just tell me to remain clear but sometimes ask me to descend while still a couple of hours from my destination, at an altitude they and I both know won't work for the rest of the trip.
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What direction? N - S is pretty easy, E - W, never going to happen. Not sure how much leeway there is away from direct N-S
 
Chicago local here. I used to transit from SW (PIA) to NE (UGN) and the trick was to file IFR to UGN, get sent to Plano intersection at 6,000, vectored 360. Cancel and ask for VFR flight following. At that point you start flying the 35 DME circle towards the NE corner climbing though 8K which takes you near BENKE intersection. That is the major approach to ORD in the NW quadrant (look up the Benke arrival) and your presence threatens to create many an RA.

The controller comes on and asks intentions. "35 DME circle to UGN, sir!", and the reply is always, "How about I clear you through the Bravo?"

From the SE find the dominant arrival- Veeck or Style (8,000) or whatever they're using, go to VFR flight following and negotiate from there. Of course they have the right to vector you to Kalamazoo (literally) so at that point you have to abandon advisories and you will be doing the lakeshore at 1,500 (not comfy).

The alternative is to cross IFR at 16,000 or better, go overhead at 10.5 with advisories. THAT latter is the situation (file to UGN) where they will really negotiate with you. If they had their druthers they'd grab the airspace up to 18,000.

We have a right to be there too. Just not to go out of our way to inconvenience air commerce.
 
Hang 4 said:
What direction? N - S is pretty easy, E - W, never going to happen. Not sure how much leeway there is away from direct N-S
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Normally pretty much N-S over the airport.

Once I went diagonally across the ATL Class B airspace. It was late on a Saturday night after a football game at Auburn. I kept thinking they were going to route me around KATL; was actually getting irritated that they were waiting so long to reroute me. It didn't dawn on me until we were over Hartsfield that nothing was going on there, so this diagonal flight was not an issue. Had I realized it earlier I would have asked for a T&G.

Homer_DOH.gif
 
Hang 4 said:
What direction? N - S is pretty easy, E - W, never going to happen. Not sure how much leeway there is away from direct N-S
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This particular flight was heading about 035 and would pass slightly south of the field. My "normal" flight would pass directly over the field headed 049. Never get inside the green lines on my 430W . . . . except when going to KFFC, and then I have to stay below the Bravo in and out.
 
Hank S said:
This particular flight was heading about 035 and would pass slightly south of the field. My "normal" flight would pass directly over the field headed 049. Never get inside the green lines on my 430W . . . . except when going to KFFC, and then I have to stay below the Bravo in and out.
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I go over ATL regularly. The Baron I'm flying is based at PDK and some of the Angel Flight missions I fly start or end at CCO.

They'll vector flights over to V97/T139 and then N-S. I've gone a little east of mid-field to a little west-of mid-field, whatever they are vectoring and the winds are doing that day.

Most of the time I'm IFR, largely because I'm typically flying IFR, but I've gone over VFR a couple of times as well.
 
wayne said:
I go over ATL regularly. The Baron I'm flying is based at PDK and some of the Angel Flight missions I fly start or end at CCO.

They'll vector flights over to V97/T139 and then N-S. I've gone a little east of mid-field to a little west-of mid-field, whatever they are vectoring and the winds are doing that day.

Most of the time I'm IFR, largely because I'm typically flying IFR, but I've gone over VFR a couple of times as well.
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IFR, I get HEFIN or CINKA, sometimes my choice. VFR I usually get "remain outside the Bravo," but this time was sent to GRANT.

Never been allowed into the ATL Bravo going back and forth from Lower Alabama to anywhere in NC.
 
Seeing this garbage makes me really appreciate the TEC routes that go right over LAX.
 
Ain't going to happen. You're going to go to KELSI (or way out east over Lake Michigan).

I had the following discussion with C90 while coming down on Chicago a few years back at 10,000'.

27K: Is there any altitude I can request that will avoid me having to go to KELSI?
C90: Hold on, let me check.... Nope.
27K: OK, here's what we're going to do. I'm going to climb up to 10,500, cancel IFR, and then you'll give me flight following to direct to OSH.
C90: We can do that.

Now I just file to GYY and expect to cancel and go VFR (or come up with some other plan) when I get there. This was only confusing when I got this over central Indiana one year:

ZAU: 27K would you like to go direct to KELSI at this time?
27K: OK, hey wait a second, KELSI is 80 miles beyond my destination.
ZAU: Aren't you going to DeKalb?
27K: No, Gary.
ZAU: Oh, proceed direct Gary.

ZAU: Bellanca 90Q would you like to go direct KELSI?
90Q: Yes, we're landing at De Kalb.
(oops, wrong airplane).
 
Its been KELSI for the last 30 years, but hey maybe you are special.
 
Clip4 said:
Its been KELSI for the last 30 years, but hey maybe you are special.
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Every time I get routed there, I start singing the Elvis Costello song "I don't want to go to Kelsi."
 
flyingron said:
Yep, I go pretty much direct over the top of class B airports all up and down the east coast (the exception pretty much is BOS and perhaps EWR). Certainly been over the top at IAD, DCA (well, back when you could), ADW, BWI, PHL, JFK, ATL. CLT is a bit snarky for me because their approach path is N/S and that's always the direction I'm travelling. (Since I'm due north of CLT).
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I go over top of KPHL routinely VFR. Rarely get rerouted. Direct KHZL to 26N is almost perpendicular to the active there. My route takes me just north of the field. Only about 4500-5500. Now if I file IFR I go quite north. They aren’t as busy as ORD I imagine though.
 
benyflyguy said:
I go over top of KPHL routinely VFR. Rarely get rerouted. Direct KHZL to 26N is almost perpendicular to the active there. My route takes me just north of the field. Only about 4500-5500. Now if I file IFR I go quite north. They aren’t as busy as ORD I imagine though.
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I go over the top of ATL regularly, at 5,000' and they are busier than ORD.
 
wayne said:
I go over the top of ATL regularly, at 5,000' and they are busier than ORD.
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Well, one difference is Atlanta is only one airport. C90 has both ORD and MDW to worry about. Still most traffic from either is E/W, so I've never understood why having people noodling around just outside the class B (or just above it), is preferable than having them under positive control at some convenient altitude in the class B. I was heading up the lakeshore at 10,500 and they were holding the departures at 9000 to keep them from climbing into me, except they forgot one and he got a TCAS RA when he tried to cross my flight path. At 6000 or so, I'd have been well below all the traffic.
 
wsuffa said:
Cancel and go over the top. STL was a bit irritated with me one time when I did that after he told me they don't let small GA transients in their airspace.
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Here’s a picture I took of Lambert field last week while being a transient GA aircraft cleared through their bravo so I’d say your controller was wrong.

St Louis clears me through direct most of the time, sometimes I get short lived vectors through there. The one weird thing they seem to do is give me bravo clearance where I don’t need it but will be close just in case, then not tell me I’m cleared in when I’m very obviously on a course and altitude that will take me through(on FF).
 

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flyingron said:
Well, one difference is Atlanta is only one airport. C90 has both ORD and MDW to worry about. Still most traffic from either is E/W, so I've never understood why having people noodling around just outside the class B (or just above it), is preferable than having them under positive control at some convenient altitude in the class B. I was heading up the lakeshore at 10,500 and they were holding the departures at 9000 to keep them from climbing into me, except they forgot one and he got a TCAS RA when he tried to cross my flight path. At 6000 or so, I'd have been well below all the traffic.
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SCT has LAX/SAN/BUR/ONT/SNA/PSP to worry about, and those are just the airports you MUST talk to them and they MUST talk to you around. Meanwhile, tons of IFR traffic crosses midfield LAX at 4000', along with all the VFR crossing the end of the runways at 55/65, or the arrival at 85/95, not to mention the ones that don't even talk to SCT at 35/45 that actually conflict with the IFR traffic at 4000'. It seems like a poorly placed set of priorities at C90 - maybe @Radar Contact can give a little more insight?
 
N1120A said:
SCT has LAX/SAN/BUR/ONT/SNA/PSP to worry about, and those are just the airports you MUST talk to them and they MUST talk to you around. Meanwhile, tons of IFR traffic crosses midfield LAX at 4000', along with all the VFR crossing the end of the runways at 55/65, or the arrival at 85/95, not to mention the ones that don't even talk to SCT at 35/45 that actually conflict with the IFR traffic at 4000'. It seems like a poorly placed set of priorities at C90 - maybe @Radar Contact can give a little more insight?
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I have offered the invitation on this board multiple times over the past few years to visit C90, observe the operation, and identify a way to route VFR aircraft through the class B than doesn’t adversely affect the flow at ORD and MDW. No one has done that yet.

LAX is geographically located in a corner of the country, as and has a strictly east-west runway configuration. ORD is mostly east-west, but isn’t quite there yet, particularly with departures. It is in the middle of the continent, with departures in every cardinal direction. ORD is busier than LAX, and MDW is busier than SNA or LGB (the only air carrier airports the same relative distance).

The priorities aren’t misplaced. ORD is the busiest airport in the world with another core 30 airport 14 miles away. It is also in the middle of the continent (more or less). I also can’t find a route from north to south that adds more than a couple of minutes down the shoreline or between DPA and 06C.

There is no way around it: if you put a VFR corridor over the top of ORD, you have to restrict ORD traffic. One VFR over the top at 10,500 slows the flow of departures off multiple Chicago airports, but that’s the system we work in. My Arrow can fly the shoreline at 2000’ just as easily as it can fly anywhere at 6000’. I see the conflicts daily in the system on my radar scope, and I would much rather be underneath all of the action than mingling with it inside the class B any day.
 
I'm sorry, but that isn't accurate. ORD may have more movements than LAX, but is does it with a substantially larger field, multiple towers and without nearly as much wake turbulence risk, which is why LAX absolute murders ORD in passengers now.

Meanwhile, MDW does 200 fewer operations a day (on 3 more runways) than SNA and 100 fewer operations a day than LGB (on 2 more runways), and LGB doesn't even have Class C protection. Oh, and you leave out that you have the behemoth Delta at VNY and the penned in C of BUR, when talking proximity.

Meanwhile, they still find a decent way to transition VFR aircraft over LAX and, more importantly, fit IFR planes into that mix. The concept that you can't route IFR aircraft over the ORD midfield the way SCT does at LAX daily just makes zero sense. Not to mention VFR.
 
Jmcmanna said:
I have offered the invitation on this board multiple times over the past few years to visit C90, observe the operation, and identify a way to route VFR aircraft through the class B than doesn’t adversely affect the flow at ORD and MDW. No one has done that yet.
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Looking at the traffic flow right now on FlightAware I'd say 5-6k due N-S over the top looks clear. Landing/Departing is to the east right now. Traffic from the east is on the down wind legs at ~7,000'. MDW is landing/departing to the southeast and below 4k' the on the approach.

Maybe this isn't a normal pattern for ORD and MDW.

The 5-6k' N-S over the top is what I fly over ATL regularly. The traffic pattern at ORD looks somewhat similar right now as the ATL traffic looks when they are landing/departing to the east. ATL doesn't have MDW next to it, but it does have several busy Class D airports. PDK has 435 operations a day and MDW has 688. PDK is 15.6 nm from ATL.

That said I'd love to fly low over the water on a nice day and have a great view of downtown Chicago.
 
As I said, both the ORD and MDW departures were being held at 9000 as I was flying up the lakeshore. It would seem that at 5000 or whatever, they'd be above me and would have decreased the load (and avoided a TCAS RA). KELSI is a really inconvenient solution.
 
N1120A said:
I'm sorry, but that isn't accurate. ORD may have more movements than LAX, but is does it with a substantially larger field, multiple towers and without nearly as much wake turbulence risk, which is why LAX absolute murders ORD in passengers now.

Meanwhile, MDW does 200 fewer operations a day (on 3 more runways) than SNA and 100 fewer operations a day than LGB (on 2 more runways), and LGB doesn't even have Class C protection. Oh, and you leave out that you have the behemoth Delta at VNY and the penned in C of BUR, when talking proximity.

Meanwhile, they still find a decent way to transition VFR aircraft over LAX and, more importantly, fit IFR planes into that mix. The concept that you can't route IFR aircraft over the ORD midfield the way SCT does at LAX daily just makes zero sense. Not to mention VFR.
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SNA is 31 miles from LAX, they are far enough out of the way to not be a traffic impact. To get an apples-to-apples comparison you have to look at airports within about 15-20 miles from the primary airports. Your numbers also include every VFR tower operation which includes traffic in the pattern. Someone doing touch n goes at VNY has no impact to the LAX class B and is irrelevant to the discussion, as well as how many towers O’Hare does. The size of the aircraft don’t matter either...lateral class B separation is the same whether it’s an RJ or a 747. The discussion is whether or not there is a way for VFR aircraft to go over the top of ORD at 5500’ without affecting ORD traffic, and there is not without a major airspace redesign which would greatly impact the ORD departure rate.

When you compare the numbers of the itinerant IFR traffic in the area (those actually using the class B), ORD/MDW/DPA/PWK do more than 300,000 operations more than LAX/BUR/VNY/SMO. The SoCal airports have their arrival and departure streams much more concentrated to/from the east and north whereas the Chicago airports are much more evenly divided in all directions. LAX traffic is spread much more throughout the 24 hours than ORD, which is mostly concentrated between 5:30am and 10:30pm. Come at midnight and I’ll give you a class B clearance over the top (I did just last week to a C150).

It’s amazing that experts on the internet can use flight aware to make C90’s airspace more efficient but the people who actually work airplanes through the system every day have no idea what they’re talking about :rolleyes:
 
I love when people leave out airports in trying to make their case. You know, like TOA, HHR (literally next to LAX) and LGB. And you leave out all the busy airports that have their IFR and VFR traffic cross the LAX and SNA arrivals. Meanwhile, C90 insists on putting everyone all the way out at KELSI. Come on.
 
I just filed IFR, and let the system take care of it. I ended flying directly over ORD with no issues (Cessna 172).
 
I just filed IFR, and let the system take care of it.
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File what you want.
Fly what you get.
Log what you need.
 
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