Frontier Pilots Ready To Walk

I have trouble reconciling the quality of life airline pilots frequently refer to with the adversarial relationship between management and pilots the same pilots frequently refer to. I'm not on that side of the industry but they are typically contradictory in my experience.

Nauga,
representin'

I've always taken the quality of life assertion on the part of airline pilots as referring to the ability to leave work at work in ways many pedestrian occupations cannot. It's a truly paradoxical occupation: spend most of your life burning out on flying, just so you can get "flying" job where your number one goal is to legally maximize your absence from it. :D But hey, mo days off is mo betta.

Of course, so is unemployment....:eek::D
 
Again, you think your industry is unique. But non- union pilots are able to message the same calls. Ipso facto it is not the union's existence that allows pilots to make those calls.
An industry doesn't have to be unique for its employees to consider a union to be beneficial. There is more than one industry whose workers have chosen union representation.
 
It has often been said that an employer gets the union it deserves.
And it may often be true. But it's also often true, and demonstrated in this thread, that many employers get the union some other employer deserves.
The most profitable airline ever has been among the most unionized shops ever. Respect means a lot.
As have the most unprofitable. ;)
 
The Railway Labor Act (RLA) makes working for an airline (or railroad) significantly different than working in other industries as the federal rules governing your employment are quite different.

The RLA was originally designed to prevent strikes or lock-outs which would disrupt the country's transportation system. First railroads, then later airlines. The RLA prohibits covered labor groups from striking, and employers from locking-out covered labor groups, without first proceeding through a complex process which involves the National Mediation Board (NMB). Both labor and employers are required to maintain Status Quo during the process so employer's can not change work rules outside of the process.

The goal is to avoid disruptions in the transportation system and, for the most part, it does that. It also produces situations that don't make a lot of sense when viewed from the outside without any context or understanding of the RLA.....
"The goal is to avoid disruptions in the transportation system and, for the most part, it does that."
Which is why my union, IBEW Local-3, couldn't strike.

My trade is a pilot. I do not have another, just as a plumber is not an electrician.
It’s not easy to learn to another skill set in your 50’s.. then progress to make what you make now.
Your thoughts, while sound terrific, are just not real world for the professional aviator.
Stick with your company and fight for a good contract is clearly the best route for most in my position.
As an industrial electrician in my 50's, I couldn't agree more. Government (bi-state) employee here with over 30 years in the transportation industry (Airports, seaports, bridges, tunnels and terminals) in the NY metro area. JFK-EWR-LGA, etc.

My wife and I both have over 60 years combined in the agency (35 and 33 respectively). She's on the operations side of things, I'm on the maintenance side (our guys maintain the runways and keep them lit for you guys to safely operate from;)). In 2000 I got promoted to Electrical Systems Controller (13KV, 480/277V systems), so I no longer get my hands dirty in the field, but I sure miss working on the runway/taxiway lighting, signs and visiting the control towers which we also maintained. On the other hand, it's nice to be in an air conditioned (and warm) Control Room, watching TV during extreme summer heat and frigid winter temps.:)
However, there are only 12 Systems Controller positions and we have over 200 electricians, so most of us are in the field dealing with the harsh weather conditions to keep transportation flowing and things moving smoothly.

After over a decade of negotiations (12 years-my union IBEW, 11 years-wife's), we've finally reached an agreement and recently voted to ratify new contracts. The agency (with the help of the newly appointed NJ Governor) actually offered us a deal that we couldn't refuse this time. Now they're in the process of finalizing everything. In addition to our new pay rates, we will have to pay a little into our healthcare plan, which until now, we paid only a small co-pay for doctor visits and medicine. Those of us who retire before 2022 will not be required to contribute into our pension plans. That changes things for the new employees and those with only a few years in, but we all had certain aspects of the existing contracts that we weren't too happy with when we were hired. That's just how it is.

Now the accountants are busy crunching the numbers determining the amounts of our retro checks.

Yes, it would have been better to have a decent contract years ago to match the cost of living increases, but with our seniority and retirement in a couple of years, it's money in the bank. So in the long run, I'm glad we stuck it out. Could I have gone elsewhere after the last contract expired in 2006, sure, but I wasn't about to give up my years of seniority and position to start over at the bottom of some other company. Neither was my wife.

Plus I hate plumbing work:D
 
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...plus, you'd have to wear your pants all saggy, and that just doesn't suit a sparky at all.
 
gimme a break..
http://frontierpilotfacts.com/career-progression/
Quality of Life
Frontier Airlines has long described itself as a “quality of life” airline for pilots. That description tries to create the impression that a more favorable work-life environment offsets or makes up for its lower pay and benefits.

apparently also looking to recruit the best lol
https://www.flyfrontier.com/
Work Here!
We are looking for the best to join our team.


https://www.flyfrontier.com/about-us/
Our commitment to you is supported by a team of approximately 3,000 hard-working, aviation professionals.
looks like some serious 'supported by a team' issues to me, with pilots ready to walk

as far as reasons for low fares, everyone knows about the unmentioned ones
https://www.flyfrontier.com/about-us/why-fly-frontier/

this is the best part
Fun & Friendly!
Welcome aboard my friend!
 
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gimme a break..
http://frontierpilotfacts.com/career-progression/


apparently also looking to recruit the best lol
https://www.flyfrontier.com/



https://www.flyfrontier.com/about-us/

looks like some serious 'supported by a team' issues to me, with pilots ready to walk

as far as reasons for low fares, everyone knows about the unmentioned ones
https://www.flyfrontier.com/about-us/why-fly-frontier/

this is the best part
I might add that the flight attendants have also been at a negotiations impass. It’s unclear if they filed for release with the NMB however.
 
looks to me that folks that run the show at frontier are either clueless, or new kids on the block..

when can the pilots actually walk?
https://globalnews.ca/news/4509508/primera-air-bankrupt-canadians/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_Airlines
Acquisition by Indigo Partners
In October 2013, Republic Airways Holdings entered into an agreement with private equity firm Indigo Partners to sell Frontier Airlines for approximately $145 million. According to Indigo, the transaction would further Frontier’s evolution into an ultra-low-cost carrier.[40] In December 2013, Indigo Partners LLC, through an affiliate, completed the purchase of Frontier Airlines from Republic Airways Holdings. The airline's headquarters will remain in Denver.[48] Republic Airways Holdings subsidiary Republic Airlines no longer flies Embraer 190 aircraft on behalf of Frontier, as of January 1, 2014.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_Partners
Private equity firms, with their investors, will acquire a controlling or substantial minority position in a company and then look to maximize the value of that investment. Private equity firms generally receive a return on their investments through one of the following avenues:
 
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i wonder how this preliminary report lol came about..
https://www.news.com.au/news/emirat...y/news-story/3195cddc6163d5ce620ce03ac264284c
The ATSB has also been told of fatigue problems, though its preliminary report into the tail strike revealed fatigue was probably not a factor.

meanwhile, 3 1/2 hours sleep in a 24 hour period, one one day alone
The pilot said it was hard for him to know if he was fatigued or not, but that he had very little sleep when the near-fatal error was made.

"I had the flown the maximum in the last 30 days. One hundred hours in 28 days, it's an Emirates rule," he said.

"I'd flown 99 hours. You can fly 100 hours in a month. There a big difference in long-haul, nights, it's a mix of everything."

He said he had told ATSB investigators he had little sleep in the day before to the 10.30pm flight on Friday, March 20.

"This long-haul flying is really, really fatiguing. Really demanding on your body," he said.

"When I did that take-off in Melbourne I had slept 3 1/2 hours in 24 hours.


"You feel sort of normal, abnormal."

He said he had been in Melbourne for 24 hours before his flight.

"That (the Melbourne-Dubai flight) is the most tiring trip I have done in my career.

"You're always out of whack."

& can't imagine how they may factor in 'proper rest' in the above scheduling

https://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/psychosocial/fatigue.html
Is fatigue a workplace issue?

Employers and supervisors should be concerned about the impact of fatigue in the workplace as it can be considered a form of impairment, making fatigue a workplace hazard. However, fatigue levels are not easily measured or quantified; therefore, it is difficult to isolate the effect of fatigue on accident and injury rates. Awareness and observation of changes in behaviour is one method to identify fatigue. Factors that may influence fatigue are shift rotation patterns, balanced workloads, timing of tasks and activities, availability of resources, and the workplace environment (e.g., lighting, ventilation, temperature, etc).

Some research studies have shown that when workers have slept for less than 5 hours before work or when workers have been awake for more than 16 hours, their chance of making mistakes at work due to fatigue are significantly increased.

Research has shown that the number of hours awake can be similar to blood alcohol levels. One study reports the following:

  • 17 hours awake is equivalent to a blood alcohol content of 0.05
  • 21 hours awake is equivalent to a blood alcohol content of 0.08 (legal limit in Canada)
  • 24-25 hours awake is equivalent to a blood alcohol content of 0.10
Fatigue is regarded as having an impact on work performance. Government of Alberta, Labour* reports that most incidents occur when people are more likely to want sleep - between midnight and 6 am, and between 1 to 3 pm. Government of Alberta, Labour also reports that fatigue affects people differently but it can increase a worker’s hazard exposure by:

  • reducing mental and physical functioning,
  • impairing judgement and concentration,
  • lowering motivation,
  • slowing reaction time, and
  • increasing risk-taking behaviour.
& up to that point
"Until now, I had a perfect record."

What are the effects of fatigue and their relationship to work?

Because fatigue cannot be "measured", it is difficult to separate the effects of long working hours or lack of sleep to any changes in incident or injury rates.

However, studies report the effects of fatigue as:

  • reduced decision making ability,
  • reduced ability to do complex planning,
  • reduced communication skills,
  • reduced productivity or performance,
  • reduced attention and vigilance,
  • reduced ability to handle stress on the job,
  • reduced reaction time - both in speed and thought,
  • loss of memory or the ability to recall details,
  • failure to respond to changes in surroundings or information provided,
  • unable to stay awake (e.g., falling asleep while operating machinery or driving a vehicle),
  • increased tendency for risk-taking,
  • increased forgetfulness,
  • increased errors in judgement,
  • increased sick time, absenteeism, rate of turnover,
  • increased medical costs, and
  • increased incident rates.

& the gall of those lazy cushy job pilots, to raise workplace safety issues.. or complain about adequate pay/compensation, particularly for the risk/rewards involved
 
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apparently, the rest of the world is onboard here? what new regs? international standards?
http://www.alpa.org/news-and-events...canada-flight-time-duty-time-regulations-ntsb
Canada’s current pilot fatigue rules lag drastically behind the rest of the world. In 2014, long-overdue draft regulations that would have brought Canada’s flight- and duty-time regulations in line with international standards were released. However, due to pressure from some industry stakeholders to slow the regulatory process and delay implementation, those new regulations have still not been enacted. ALPA maintains that safety risks will unnecessarily continue for those who work in the industry and for those who travel by air until adequate rules are finalized.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4487335/air-canada-pilot-near-miss-fatigue/

https://globalnews.ca/news/4489361/fatigue-transport-canada-rules-air-canada-near-miss/
 
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Years back I worked for a 135 commuter in Alaska that was power on nose diving into the ground. They cut pilot wages with the ploy of saving the company. Then a month later they cut every one else's wages. Someone got the idea to bring in a union.

Well, someone did just that. A union representative showed up asking questions and looking around. A week later we all got a letter telling us our company was too small for them and that the money would not be enough for them to "represent" us.

Years later at my first air ambulance job, I was working 14 on, 14 off. After a few years I was getting 4 weeks paid vacation a year. I usually took two weeks off and cashed in the other two weeks. But if I wanted to I could have had 10 straight weeks off.



Man, I would have loved to go to Clovis. I have friends in Muleshoe.
Necropost, but just curious who do you know in Muleshoe? Born and raised here, lived here almost all of my life.
 
Changing airlines is not a lateral move. It’s a seniority based system, and changing airlines could mean five years on reserve and 20 years until once again sitting left seat.
IMO that truly changes the equation.
But as the OP says, "probationary firings" are on the rise. How much seniority is a probationary employee going to lose?
 
But as the OP says, "probationary firings" are on the rise. How much seniority is a probationary employee going to lose?
Could be as much as 14 or 15 months.
That said, my response was not in reference to the OP.
 
Huge necro. I miss Mscard.

Yup, I'm weird. I miss Henning too.
Yes, necro thread. Not really relevant any longer seeing as though Frontier’s contract was settled eight months ago.
 
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