Clearance to cross closed runway with barriers?

DesertNomad

DesertNomad

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DesertNomad
Given two parallel runways (ie 30R and 30L), landing on 30L, the full length of runway 30R is closed, exiting to the right on taxiway F, there are orange barriers running across 30R at the right and left edges of taxiway F.

With the barriers, there is no possible way for there to be any traffic moving along 30R in either direction, crossing taxiway F.

Does one need a clearance to cross 30R after landing?
 
IF 30R is closed, you do not need a clearance to cross it.
 
I don’t know the rule, but in reality we constantly get cleared to cross closed runways.
Sometime runways open and close very fast and near impossible to keep up.
 
Kritchlow said:
I don’t know the rule, but in reality we constantly get cleared to cross closed runways.
Sometime runways open and close very fast and near impossible to keep up.
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The one in question will be closed for months. If there were no barricades, I think it would be clear that a clearance is required, but with it blocked off, it is a bit murky.
 
we had one that was closed, with no intention of ever reopening, and were always cleared to cross it. It is no longer charted or numbered.
 
KPAE has a runway thats been closed for years. Still, every time you call ground for taxi clearance, they will clear you to cross the closed runway.
 
DesertNomad said:
The one in question will be closed for months. If there were no barricades, I think it would be clear that a clearance is required, but with it blocked off, it is a bit murky.
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Regardless, we always get clearance even on the obviously long term projects.
I wonder....?? Is that because if the runway is closed, one needs permission to taxi on it, even if taxiing across??
 
DesertNomad said:
Are there barricades running all the way across 31R at JFK on both sides of the crossing taxiways?
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You keep referring to barricades...
With all due respect, I’m betting the rule does not change depending on if there are barricades or not.
It is possible ATC just issues the clearance so there is no confusion. That said, like Jordan, I always get the clearance for whatever reason.
 
My mistake. I can remember being taught that it wasn’t necessary years ago, but the 2014 runway safety circular clearly states that it covers closed and inactive runways.
 
Thanks everyone. I just assumed that the barricades made it a situation where the taxiway no longer effectively crossed the runway.
 
Kritchlow said:
You keep referring to barricades...
With all due respect, I’m betting the rule does not change depending on if there are barricades or not.
It is possible ATC just issues the clearance so there is no confusion. That said, like Jordan, I always get the clearance for whatever reason.
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The circular advising it aside, this - consistency in communication - simply makes sense. If there is a runway - closed, open, temporary, permanent, concrete, gravel, whatever - we get cleared to cross it.
 
Yes it is necessary now. It changed in 2010.

https://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/news/current_events/taxi_to/

91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.
(i) Takeoff, landing, taxi clearance. No person may, at any airport with an operating control tower, operate an aircraft on a runway or taxiway, or take off or land an aircraft, unless an appropriate clearance is received from ATC.

  • As a result, "Taxi to" is no longer used when issuing taxi instructions to an assigned take-off runway.
  • Instructions to cross a runway are now issued one at a time. Instructions to cross multiple runways are not issued. An aircraft or vehicle must have crossed the previous runway before another runway crossing instruction is issued.
  • This applies to any runway including inactive or closed runways.
  • Never cross a hold line without explicit ATC instructions. If in doubt, ask!
  • Reminder: You may not enter a runway unless you have been: instructed to cross that specific runway; cleared to take off from that runway; or instructed to line up and wait on that specific runway.
 
At Reno it is common to be told to cross 16L and 16R in the same instruction.
 
I am not sure that I even understand why you would ask this question. This is a towered airport correct? When do you move anywhere on the controlled surface (i.e. the "movement area") without a specific clearance to do so? What am I missing?
 
jordane93 said:
Yea I’ve been told to cross 2 runways in the same clearance although ATC isn’t supposed according to that FAR. What’s the guidance on this @Timbeck2 @Radar Contact
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If they're close enough they can do it. They gotta get approval from the Big Cheese first

c. Issue a crossing clearance to aircraft for each
runway their route crosses. An aircraft must have
crossed a previous runway before another runway
crossing clearance may be issued. At those airports
where the taxi distance between runway centerlines
is 1,300 feet or less, multiple runway crossings may
be issued with a single clearance. The air traffic
manager must submit a request to the appropriate
Service Area Director of Air Traffic Operations and
receive approval before authorizing multiple runway
crossings.
 
This can all be simplified down to...

If it is still a runway, you need a clearance to cross it.
 
jordane93 said:
Yea I’ve been told to cross 2 runways in the same clearance although ATC isn’t supposed according to that FAR. What’s the guidance on this @Timbeck2 @Radar Contact
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It's been a while since I worked at ORD...over a decade now I guess. We used to cross multiple runways in one transmission. Also never got a runway assignment read back during a busy outbound push. There are waivers for many things that people outside the facility may not see.

No idea what they do now days with this stuff. To the original OP. I make sure I have clearance to cross all runways...closed or not.
 
Larry in TN said:
I've managed to depart ORD several times without making a single transmission on Ground frequency.
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That was the only way it worked. If everyone got to talk during those rushes the inner and outer taxiways around the terminals would have been gridlocked. Controllers would come in from other facilities and have a hard time with just staying keyed up and talking to 20+ planes...their careers up to that point had ingrained in them the importance of read backs. :)

Not sure if they still do it that way or not. The new outboard runways have really spread out the traffic a bit for the ground guys. All the old configurations had the arrivals clearing the runways right into the terminal area.
 
Radar Contact said:
Not sure if they still do it that way or not. The new outboard runways have really spread out the traffic a bit for the ground guys. All the old configurations had the arrivals clearing the runways right into the terminal area.
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They just keep adding more Ground frequencies.

Landings on 10R will talk to 10R Local, 10R GND, 10C Local, 10L Local, then Inbound Ground.

Land 9L and you get only 9L Local, 9L Ground, Inbound Ground.

(Of course, ramp control is in there, too, but that's not ATC)

So, how come I hear Jamie on the frequency all the time but never you? You must use a different voice at work!
 
Don't forget helicopters could be cleared to land at an intersection of a taxiway and a closed runway. It's only closed for airplanes, in that instance...
 
IK04 said:
Don't forget helicopters could be cleared to land at an intersection of a taxiway and a closed runway. It's only closed for airplanes, in that instance...
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I think the main reason for the change in policy was because of a number of runway incursions that occured because someone crossed a runway they "thought" was closed. FAA's fix...require a clearance to cross any and every runway. No more excuses.
 
Radar Contact said:
It's been a while since I worked at ORD...over a decade now I guess. We used to cross multiple runways in one transmission. Also never got a runway assignment read back during a busy outbound push. There are waivers for many things that people outside the facility may not see.

No idea what they do now days with this stuff. To the original OP. I make sure I have clearance to cross all runways...closed or not.
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There started being a lot of incursions in the mid 80's when the economy picked up. Deregulation of the airlines wasn't that old, the CAB closed it's doors in 85. Air Traffic picked way up without them regulating schedules. Hub and spoke became a thang. Add into that a generally overall less 'seasoned' workforce in the post strike world and the stage was ripe for it. Lots of tweaking was done to the .65 over the following years. Incursions kept happening. My last working experience was as an instructor at the Academy in 2007. It was a big deal then. I was Center but the Terminal guys were talking about it all the time. The basic premise is Local has absolute authority over the Runway. No more look and go for Ground. No more hand signals between Local and Ground etc. Putting planes on the Tower frequency just to get across a Runway has become a norm.
 
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There is one active runway at my home drome at night, as it is the only one with lights. They still clear you to cross the other runways and I still wait for clearance.
 
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