Checkride coming up, slightly concerned about stall recovery technique

TennVolsPilot39

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TennVolsPilot39
Hello everyone, I have my PPL checkride coming up soon. I’ve been signed off and am just saving a little money to get it done. I feel fairly confident as far as being able to pass the ride but I have one lingering concern. I’ve flown with 3 different instructors during my training with my most recent one being the longest. Everything has went well but this one has taught me power on stalls differently than the other 2 and I’m not sure of it. Everything leading up to the stall is the same but he has been having me pull the power to idle when the stall breaks, recover by lowering the nose then going back to full power as I begin to bring the nose back level and then back above the horizon. I can recover this way and I can also recover just fine the other way by leaving the power in. The part that is confusing to me and has me unsure is the part about having me actually pull the power back to idle. Am I missing something? I still haven’t contacted the DPE to schedule the ride and I’m actually considering asking him this same question during our initial phone conversation. Just thought maybe I could ask here and not even have to do that. Thanks guys I love reading here and it seems like I always pick up good rid bits from a lot of you all. Fly safe!
 
What would you do on a full power short field takeoff? Would you chop the power if you stalled it? This is what the maneuver is supposed to represent is a departure stall. Leave the power in let the nose come down just below the horizon to regain speed then pitch for best climb.
 
For a power off stall, the power should be at idle before the stall occurs not when it breaks. Once the nose drops, then apply full power and clean it up.

This is the problem with training with a variety of instructors.
 
For a power off stall, the power should be at idle before the stall occurs not when it breaks. Once the nose drops, then apply full power and clean it up.

This is the problem with training with a variety of instructors.

Valid point, too bad he was talking about power on! ;)
 
What would you do on a full power short field takeoff? Would you chop the power if you stalled it? This is what the maneuver is supposed to represent is a departure stall. Leave the power in let the nose come down just below the horizon to regain speed then pitch for best climb.
Thank you sir. This was my thinking too. I guess I was just needing some validation from other pilots. I can recover the proper way and will do so on my ride. This guy has been a good instructor I guess he has just made an error here. Thanks again!
 
Power On stall recovery is literally lower the nose at the break and pitch up at Vx to establish a climb. That's it. Don't overcomplicate it and certainly don't chop the power in the middle of it or you'll be getting a failure notice.
 
Is this the same instructor that signed you off for the checkride?

Just sounds weird to me... Stalls were power on OR power off... To mimick departure stall or approach stall respectively....

The only reason I could see to chop power on departure would be engine fire and it wouldn't be power chop... It would be full lean AND power off... (Switches and throttle) and that's all a maybe depending on altitude, AMD, and other variables.

But, I'm only a 100 hour pilot that ain't flown in a hunnert years... So, if I ain't right yet, I will be when I get another 10 hours or so...
 
First off I would ask your instructor, but secondly, I do think he’s wrong. There is absolutely zero reason to cut power in a stall. It is 100% correct to say power is not a priority over AoA, but you should not be taking it out. Like in a power off stall I could see the logic behind an instructor showing you to pitch down and wait on the power, but mostly just to show that only decreasing AoA will recover from a stall. In reality you will be pushing forward and adding power nearly at the same time. Power is there to help you establish a positive rate of climb after you have regained control of the aircraft, taking it out is just going to make impact with the ground more likely.
 
The only time you'd chop power is if you were in a spin.

Not all planes "drop the nose" on stall. Your answer to any stall is simple: REDUCE THE ANGLE OF ATTACK. Nothing else will work. Once you've done that, then you can add power (if it's not already there) and establish a climb to counter the loss of altitude.
 
As suggested, ask your instructor for clarification.... And have the Airplane Flying Handbook reference with you and open to page 4-9.

Hopefully your instructor will take this query as a learning moment for him and improve his teachings.
 
The only time you'd chop power is if you were in a spin.

Not all planes "drop the nose" on stall. Your answer to any stall is simple: REDUCE THE ANGLE OF ATTACK. Nothing else will work. Once you've done that, then you can add power (if it's not already there) and establish a climb to counter the loss of altitude.

Hmm. I wonder if the CFI is scared of spins and that's why he's doing this. @TennVolsPilot39 , ask him. Maybe after your checkride if he's the kind of guy who don't like being questioned. I'd love to hear his rationale behind this.
 
Others have covered the mistake in the instruction.

I suggest another thing. Visualize why each maneuver on the checkride is there and what it’s proving you understand.

A power on stall. How would we enter one of those inadvertently after we have earned the certificate?

Maybe our first time with a heavily loaded aircraft that needs what to climb? Excess horsepower and a higher angle of attack if slower, right? What happens at the critical angle of attack? Right. A stall.

So you’re just fooling along in your Super Skychicken with four passengers and you did your W&B like a good PIC should and with fuel, this airplane is as heavy as you’ve ever flown it.

You launch and notice your climb rate with the nose on your usual climb spot on the horizon isn’t very good. You push on the already firewalled throttle and mixture and thing “well that’s full, and the gauge agrees”.

Meanwhile you look at your chart and outside for some landmarks and you naturally pull the nose up a bit because that ground still “feels” a bit too close. Without thinking about it. The airspeed drops off. All of a sudden the stall horn activates.

This... is what you’re training these for. Instant reaction MUST be to lower the nose as aggressively as needed to regain airspeed and reduce angle of attack. Secondarily if the aircraft is in any sort of “dirty” configuration you weren’t expecting (you climbed out with the gear down, silly - no you won’t see that in the training environment or part of the way we teach these), suck that up. Flaps way down past normal climb flaps? Make sure the airspeed is high enough and get those up too. (Probably not going to see that mistake on anything other than a STOL aircraft where you departed with an incredible amount of flap and drag and you’re unlikely to not know you did it)... Finally, that ground is still kinda close, so let’s not lose much altitude doing this.

Juuuuuust enough nose down to regain the airspeed decisively and then pitch for a safe climb speed so as not to sink. Easy peasy.

I think it helps to visualize a few ways you might find yourself IN one of these vs the benign training environment where you’ve briefed it, made clearing turns, set up the climb, etc. In training it’s easy. You KNOW what’s coming. In real life you are SURPRISED by a stall warning at full power.

For future you as a big airplane PIC driver “fun”, think about this one. You upgraded to the jet and you’re climbing out straight up to the flight levels. And you have a fancy autopilot in this rig. And you set it to maintain a vertical speed during the climb. The AP keeps trying to maintain that VS as you get to the teens and twenties of the flight levels but the aircraft is slowing. Boom... stall warning, stick shaker. AP disconnect button, push the nose down, power up if not already at max. (Or whatever that particular airplane calls for.)

If you had remembered to switch the AP to IAS mode... Indicated Airspeed... for the climb after using the VS mode, today’s ride would have been a lot less “exciting” during the climb out.

Fun stuff. Always visualize scenarios. Wonder why these tested items in the ACS were chosen. They’re all there for a reason... think about why. Helps a whole lot to explain why the entry and recovery are done a certain way.

Have fun, enjoy the checkride! First of many perhaps and the first earned certificate for the new aviator. Fun stuff!
 
Hmm. I wonder if the CFI is scared of spins and that's why he's doing this.

That, or it could also be that the instructor is teaching the OP the same way he was taught to do them. Based on the OP's description, it sounds identical to the procedure the instructor I used for primary training taught. My instructor got all his training at one of the prominent aviation colleges so I can't help but wonder if this was something they taught there, now that I hear of someone else teaching the same way.
 
For what it's worth - just did my check ride in June and power was ON for power on stall.

I am not a CFI, nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn express last night... but the steps I use are

At stall break, - release back pressure, nose should be placed at or slightly above horizon for recovery
level wings using RUDDER ONLY. not aileron (this usually happens nearly in sync with above step)
establish positive rate of climb.
the level out and celebrate.

DOUBLE CHECK EVERYTHING WITH YOUR INSTRUCTOR !
 
Hello everyone, I have my PPL checkride coming up soon. I’ve been signed off and am just saving a little money to get it done. I feel fairly confident as far as being able to pass the ride but I have one lingering concern. I’ve flown with 3 different instructors during my training with my most recent one being the longest. Everything has went well but this one has taught me power on stalls differently than the other 2 and I’m not sure of it. Everything leading up to the stall is the same but he has been having me pull the power to idle when the stall breaks, recover by lowering the nose then going back to full power as I begin to bring the nose back level and then back above the horizon. I can recover this way and I can also recover just fine the other way by leaving the power in. The part that is confusing to me and has me unsure is the part about having me actually pull the power back to idle. Am I missing something? I still haven’t contacted the DPE to schedule the ride and I’m actually considering asking him this same question during our initial phone conversation. Just thought maybe I could ask here and not even have to do that. Thanks guys I love reading here and it seems like I always pick up good rid bits from a lot of you all. Fly safe!

Hopefully you a familiar with the ACS. It provides how these demonstrations are to be done. A power on stall (departure stall) requires a power setting no less than 65% power (or a directed by the examiner) during the stall. https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/acs/media/private_airplane_acs.pdf

Generally I teach my student to slow the plane <70 kts, enter the climb full power and reduce the power to about 70% so the airplane does not have to lose a lot of energy prior to the stall.

Once the stalls breaks, pitch, roll, full power.
 
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Hopefully you a familiar with the ACS. It provides how these demonstrations are to be done. A power on stall (departure stall) requires a power setting no less than 65% power (or a directed by the examiner) during the stall. https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/acs/media/private_airplane_acs.pdf

Generally I teach my student to slow the plane <70 kts, enter the climb full power and reduce the power to about 70% so the airplane dos not have to loss a lot of energy prior to the stall.

Yeah, there's that. Some high powered airplanes require a lot of back pressure to get the plane to stall. But the OP's question was about the recovery when it stalls. The CFI was telling him to pull the throttle to idle at the break.
 
Yeah, there's that. Some high powered airplanes require a lot of back pressure to get the plane to stall. But the OP's question was about the recovery when it stalls. The CFI was telling him to pull the throttle to idle at the break.

Ok, fixed my post for you.
 
Ok, fixed my post for you.
......This... is what you’re training these for. Instant reaction MUST be to lower the nose as aggressively as needed to regain airspeed and reduce angle of attack. Secondarily if the aircraft is in any sort of “dirty” configuration you weren’t expecting (you climbed out with the gear down, silly - no you won’t see that in the training environment or part of the way we teach these), suck that up. Flaps way down past normal climb flaps? Make sure the airspeed is high enough and get those up too. (Probably not going to see that mistake on anything other than a STOL aircraft where you departed with an incredible amount of flap and drag and you’re unlikely to not know you did it)... Finally, that ground is still kinda close, so let’s not lose much altitude doing this......

Don't forget go arounds
 
Hopefully you a familiar with the ACS. It provides how these demonstrations are to be done. A power on stall (departure stall) requires a power setting no less than 65% power (or a directed by the examiner) during the stall. https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/acs/media/private_airplane_acs.pdf

Generally I teach my student to slow the plane <70 kts, enter the climb full power and reduce the power to about 70% so the airplane does not have to lose a lot of energy prior to the stall.

Once the stalls breaks, pitch, roll, full power.
This is how I’d been previously shown power ON stalls and how ive practiced them solo. The only time other than this instructor that I’ve read or been told anything about cutting the power during a power oncstall when when it developed into a spin. I’ve been spending a lot of time in my POH and looking at the ACS. I guess I was just wondering more than anything if any of you all had ever heared or experienced this type of recovery technique
 
I teach, bring back power, slow the plane while maintaining altitude. At Vr add power. Depending on the plane full power or slightly less than full power. Keep pitching up til stall breaks. After break bring nose slightly above horizon, accelerate to Vy and climb back out.
 
I teach, bring back power, slow the plane while maintaining altitude. At Vr add power. Depending on the plane full power or slightly less than full power. Keep pitching up til stall breaks. After break bring nose slightly above horizon, accelerate to Vy and climb back out.

That is a short maneuver. In some aircraft the Vr is only 5-10 knot above Vs1.
 
For what it's worth - just did my check ride in June and power was ON for power on stall.

I am not a CFI, nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn express last night... but the steps I use are

At stall break, - release back pressure, nose should be placed at or slightly above horizon for recovery
level wings using RUDDER ONLY. not aileron (this usually happens nearly in sync with above step)
establish positive rate of climb.
the level out and celebrate.

DOUBLE CHECK EVERYTHING WITH YOUR INSTRUCTOR !

Yeah. But the OP has had 3 Instructors and the last one is telling him something different than the other 2.

What’s this not sleeping at the Holiday thing about? Your the second person I’ve seen use that punchline.
 
Reference the AFH, Chapter 4 for proper technique (fig. 4-8) when demonstrating Power-On Stalls (Task VII.C. from the Private Pilot ACS.)

Thanks for the links. Been awhile since I’ve read the AFH, nothing there about pulling power at the break. The ACS was new to me. I don’t see anything that would allow for it other than the POH of that airplane said do it.
 
Yeah. But the OP has had 3 Instructors and the last one is telling him something different than the other 2.

What’s this not sleeping at the Holiday thing about? Your the second person I’ve seen use that punchline.

There was a series of ads years ago where someone appeared to be an expert in non-everyday knowledge and resolve an unsolvable situation. Bystanders would be amazed and ask if they are a doctor/pilot/lawyer/etc... The response was "No but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night." Meaning staying there made you a genius and possessing all worldly knowledge.

Thos ads gotta be pushing 15 or 20 years old.

Edit: ads ran from 98 to 2008
 
The only thing I can add is that you want elevator authority and power helps that. You’re full power. You’re flying slowly. The wings can’t provide lift, they stall. You want all the help you can get to lower the pitch but recover right away. You need the elevator to be working. Full prop blast is best for the elevator to do its thing. Pulling power out just makes things worse? The best way to check if that’s the case is to perform it both ways and watch your altitude loss on each.
 
Lol I’ve seen more consensus on this topic than probably any other post I’ve read.
Um...

A departure stall at anything less than full power isn't realistic at all. That airplane will behave a lot more mildly at 65 or 70% power than it will at full power, and the student gets complacent about it. He thinks he knows how to handle a departure stall. Then he gets into the real thing in a real situation and it bites him badly. That typical departure stall usually happens as the pilot is trying to avoid an imminent collision with an obstacle, right? He's using full power.

Recovering when the stall horn sounds isn't realistic, either, and it doesn't teach the control of a wing drop. Stall horns are set to sound at 5 to 10 knots above the actual stall break, and some of them are notoriously unreliable to boot. Some airplanes don't even have them. So the student needs to see the stall break and recover from that. Takes some skill, a lot more than recovering from the stall warning. One learns what one's feet are for.

Turning while the departure stall happens is common instruction in Canada, too. Unlike a descending turn stall, the outside wing normally stalls first. More stuff to get a handle on. Turning to avoid a collision with an obstacle is another factor often added to the situation.
 
Note to OP: PTS allows the DPE to request you bank 20* during the power on stall ... my DPE did just that ... make sure you're coordinated if he does or practice a couple with your CFI ... I was never shown a power on stall while turning prior to the practical - it was a non-event, but had my attention.
 
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