Public Smoking

Ryanb said:
I’m just not so sure that even if I present you with sound evidence, that you’ll take it as factual due to your predetermined bias of the matter.

I get it, you’re essentially trying to make a case to justify your habit. Millions and millions of people including handfuls of government agencies will disagree with you that second hand smoke (even in moderation) isn’t harmful to one’s health. Years of research proves otherwise. If it makes you feel better, forget anything that I’ve said and just keep smoking until your heart is content - just don’t do it around me! :p
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Pretending I’m biased in order to avoid defending your position that you’ve claimed multiple times, without a single reference to a stuffy showing significant harm done by outdoor smoke, to anyone... isn’t really swaying anyone who values facts.

But it does work on the emotional who value a “cool story, bro!”

You’re the one making the claim of death and destruction. Not me. I’m pretty sure the evidentiary responsibility is on you on this one.

You may not like what you find. Just sayin’.

I’ve already conceded closed spaces to you, and agreed the stopping of that particular public health hazard was reasonably justified.

I’ve also conceded that you don’t like it.

The givens are simple and defined.

Find your data to back up the outdoor thing. Otherwise your doom and gloom message just isn’t justified.

Heck, find me one dead person from walking through an outdoor smoker’s smoke.

They have to NOT have had a pre-existing medical condition, however, or the ability to hold their breath so long that they perished ten minutes after they walked by. LOL.

I hear that if you don’t have a pilot certificate you’ll crash into bus loads of nuns and small children, too. Had you heard? I don’t like dead nuns and children. They’re stinky.
 
denverpilot said:
Pretending I’m biased in order to avoid defending your position that you’ve claimed multiple times, without a single reference to a stuffy showing significant harm done by outdoor smoke, to anyone... isn’t really swaying anyone who values facts.
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Okay, let’s see...

https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/secondhand_smoke/general_facts/index.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ca...uses/tobacco-and-cancer/secondhand-smoke.html

https://mcckc.edu/pdf/consumerInfo/secondhand.pdf

https://no-smoke.org/smokefree-threats/secondhand-smoke/

https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/tobacco/second-hand-smoke-fact-sheet
 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5359159/
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180208180356.htm
http://clinchem.aaccjnls.org/content/64/1/108
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesity-consequences/economic/

i vote to ban soda, burger and fries... any person selling on consuming them even on their private property should be put in jail. they are ruining my finance (sayz the big fat aircraft owner) and if my company didnt pay for it, i cant insure myself, hence its going to effect my health.

what else should be illegal?
 
WannFly said:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5359159/
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180208180356.htm
http://clinchem.aaccjnls.org/content/64/1/108
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesity-consequences/economic/

i vote to ban soda, burger and fries... any person selling on consuming them even on their private property should be put in jail. they are ruining my finance (sayz the big fat aircraft owner) and if my company didnt pay for it, i cant insure myself, hence its going to effect my health.

what else should be illegal?
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Fortunately, those are all personal choices that only effect that individual. Lifestyle is a choice.
 
 
Ryanb said:
Fortunately, those are all personal choices that only effect that individual. Lifestyle is a choice.
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dont think you read any of the articles i posted. when you make those choices, that drives the insurance cost for "me". its no longer a personal choice for "you"
 
People can smoke all they want in their house their car their plane or even outside. But when the sign says no smoking within 30' of entrance don't stand within the swing radius of the door.

I NEVER see anyone staying away from the entrance. Always within arms reach of the door even if it's nice outside. And then I have to walk through their stench.
 
denverpilot said:
Feel free to indicate which one of those describes a dead person from outdoor smoke and which page it’s on.

Blasting links is beneath you, and the discussion level, if you think you’re going to die from it.
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denverpilot said:
P.S. Clean your hastily Googled links of google.com/amp garbage and at least link to the source. Nobody wants to click through a Google tracking site to read things.

(Forums truly should ban those “amp” links the moment they’re sent. But that’s a whole different thread... stupid Google.) :)
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If you’re looking for me to conclude that a specific type of cancer is caused by one specific thing in all cases than you won’t find it, nobody will, but we know that breathing cigarette smoke is harmful.

It’s clear that I could present a multitude of articles about the negative effects of second hand smoke, but you’ll stick to your predetermined belief that it’s not going to cause harm. In turn, I could argue with you until I’m blue in the face, but there would be no point. I suppose your bias disproves the years of research done on second hand smoke and the only reason that you continue to try and rationalize this, is to try and justify your habit. Nate, you’re a genius!
 
EdFred said:
People can smoke all they want in their house their car their plane or even outside. But when the sign says no smoking within 30' of entrance don't stand within the swing radius of the door.

I NEVER see anyone staying away from the entrance. Always within arms reach of the door even if it's nice outside. And then I have to walk through their stench.
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EXACTLY!
 
WannFly said:
dont think you read any of the articles i posted. when you make those choices, that drives the insurance cost for "me". its no longer a personal choice for "you"
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Does it? I haven’t seen any legitimate medical or life insurance that doesn’t charge smokers significantly more, in over a decade.

Also haven’t seen any bankrupt insurance companies in a very long time other than AIG, and we didn’t get a vote on whether or not to save them.

As far as public health handouts are concerned, the two fold problem of measuring it there are a) that NOBODY foregoes insurance now with insurance being government mandated and a fineable offense (hahaha that’s a joke, of course), and b) those systems are running on funny money anyway, printed as needed, so is it really an expense to you? You aren’t covering even the interest rate on the government’s massive loans, so... who’s really paying? Can’t have a serious discussion of that one without a balanced budget.

Plus any mention of govenrmwnt spending habits here leads to the ban hammer, so let’s go with the private side question. Your insurance doesn’t make smokers pay out the ass?

Mine not only does but is leaning toward making fat people pay out the ass. They’re sneaking it in as a wellness “discount” if you lose weight. Same fiscal result, though. Math being math.

Maybe 40 years ago insurers didn’t break out smokers from the main money pools, but that’s been gone a long long time. They’re coming after the fatties now.
 
Ryanb said:
If you’re looking for me to conclude that a specific type of cancer is caused by one specific thing in all cases than you won’t find it, nobody will, but we know that breathing cigarette smoke is harmful.

It’s clear that I could present a multitude of articles about the negative effects of second hand smoke, but you’ll stick to your predetermined belief that it’s not going to cause harm. In turn, I could argue with you until I’m blue in the face, but there would be no point. I suppose your bias disproves the years of research done on second hand smoke and the only reason that you continue to try and rationalize this, is to try and justify your habit. Nate, you’re a genius!
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I didn’t ask you for that at all. I asked you to back your assertion that outdoor second hand smoke has caused someone or a large group of someones significant documented harm.

You did the usual thing of moving the goal posts to say “cancer is rampant” and “everything gives people cancer”. We all know this. Sunlight gives you cancer and killed my aunt.

You did this because you don’t like smoking. Not because you had scientific evidence that it kills anybody or even significantly harms them in an outdoor environment. Because it doesn’t.

Mowing my lawn at my altitude causes orders of magnitude more cell damage than a whiff of second hand outdoor smoke. You’d save more lives if you made me wear a long sleeve shirt.

But that’s not your “crusade” so it’s unimportant to you. The tiny chance of a particle of smoke harming a nun as she walks by, is your crusade and you’re ON it. She shall never have to smell it again. If only you can control enough other humans through unwarranted fear.

Enjoy the crusade. Save the world from the evil smokers. Line ‘em up at gunpoint and shoot them point blank, it’ll save them from their terrible life choices AND save the nuns.

Wouldn’t want anyone exposed to any of those “type one carcinogens” now would we? Don’t spill any 100LL on your hands while fueling. We’ll have to shoot you just in case. Hahaha.
 
denverpilot said:
You did this because you don’t like smoking. Not because you had scientific evidence that it kills anybody or even significantly harms them in an outdoor environment. Because it doesn’t.
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Dude, there’s more scientific evidence that’s been done over past few decades than I can count. It’s honestly really surprising to me that I’m even having this discussion, because someone doesn’t believe that smoking and second hand smoking harms the health of an individual. That’s shocking.

You’re right, I despise cigarette smoke, because I know the adverse health effects that it has.

We have a difference of opinion, a HUGE one at that. Keep on doing your thing as you see fit.

Cheers!
 
Ryanb said:
Dude, there’s more scientific evidence that’s been done over past few decades than I can count. It’s honestly really surprising to me that I’m even having this discussion, because someone doesn’t believe that smoking and second hand smoking harms the health of an individual. That’s shocking.

You’re right, I despise cigarette smoke, because I know the adverse health effects that it has.

We have a difference of opinion, a HUGE one at that. Keep on doing your thing as you see fit.

Cheers!
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If you can’t deliver on a single solid study showing it has actually significantly harmed even one individual, let alone the epidemic you claim... it’s not a different “opinion”.

You have what’s known as a delusion that matches your emotions about something.

One dead person. Show one dead person from second hand outdoor smoke that’s irrefutably tied to the massive exposure you claim.

You can’t find that evidence because it doesn’t happen. Enjoy the delusion. It has no basis in fact.
 
Places banning cigarette smoking and vaping, but alowing weed to be smoked anywhere. The cigar smokers get cigar lounges in city’s that ban smoking indoors everywhere. A lot of hypocrisy when it comes to smoking.

There is a load more things that will kill you before second smoke. And as far as the stench, old ladies going overkill with perfume, people with poor hygiene and bad body odor should be complained about more than smokers.
 
Ryanb said:
...should be illegal.

I can't believe that people still smoke these days. Comprehensive smoking bans have been introduced to prohibit smoking in all public places like restaurants, bars, clubs, workplaces etc., even though some of these may not apply in all situations (ie, casinos).

Why are designated smoking areas out in public not a thing like they are in places like an airport? My health is important to me. I try to eat properly, exercise, get enough sleep - the whole nine, so why does someone else have the right to pollute my lungs and give me cancer? It's hard to even go out for a run without turning the block and running into a gaggle of smokers and being forced to breathe that crap in. Smoke wherever you want, but not around me!

Rant over.
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Smoking in public places is prohibited in my area.
 
simtech said:
https://news.stanford.edu/news/2007/may9/smoking-050907.html

Outdoor smoke is harmful, people die from second hand smoke. There it is. And yes stay away from them I understand and I do, don't worry.
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Pretty weak. No mention of wind conditions. Used a smoldering cigarette not a smoker. Claimed that a typical cigarette lasts ten minutes. (Personally I’m wondering how, the silly things are mandated to self extinguish and have some lovely chemicals in them for that purpose now. If you can keep a cigarette lit with nobody drawing air through it, you’re blowing on it or the wind is...).

And even clearly stated someone might get ONE breath of bad air.

Also did the study at outdoor cafes (already banned for the most part around here and not the scenario you complained about), and bus stops and such, while not allowing the “smoker” or the “smokee” to have any normal human interaction whatsoever.

My favorite was “sitting within 18” of a smoker”. Man that’s pushing most peoples limits for personal space, considering at a cafe you’re not in the smokers party and at a separate table anyway, if you hate smoke that much. Unless your chair is touching theirs you’re going to have a hard time getting that close to their amazing burning smouldering ten minute long cigarette. Hahaha.

Yes Virginia, if a scientist sticks a monitor up a car tailpipe there’s bad things in there.

It’s some beautiful cherry picking though. Quite well written. I loved the funding by flight attendants, too. Ever read any of the studies on what they’re exposed to? Smoking on US aircraft isn’t even a thing anymore, so that’s suspicious to any proper skeptic reading that one. Hmmm. What’s up with that? Always interesting to follow the money...

And yet. It still didn’t prove anyone has ever been actually harmed by a single breath of bad air. Or a thousand. It vaguely pointed to other agency studies who set arbitrary standards but often don’t have to back those standards with any particular death rate, or even an injury rate... so... still not very good science.

If I can pose that many reasonable questions they didn’t bother answering, I’m going to have to go with “quick and dirty study to grab a headline” on that one. Pretty low effort on their part.

I’m guessing the study money covered grabbing a nice lunch at the cafe, conveniently located near the school. Hahaha. But hey, I’ll be nice and say it didn’t.

How did they even get permission to break California law like that, anyway? I doubt you’re allowed to light up at outdoor cafes there any more than here. Would have been funny if you were there, you’d have called the cops on them, like a proper crusader. Hahaha. I’m totally amazed they managed to even get through one smoldering cigarette at any cafe in California.

Maybe they hung a big sign and said they were doing it for science and all the California crusaders stepped back, held their breath so they didn’t die instantly of toxins, and cheered.

What do you think? Cheering peanut gallery in CA? Nobody dousing the cigarette and screaming that they’re saving the spotted owl? Hahaha. Unlikely.

Did they properly secure the area and hang a nice big Prop 65 warning? Hahahaha.
 
I smoke. I also know it does bother people. I know it can trigger a reformed smoker or one that is trying to quit. I DO step away from people, I do use provided butt cans or put it out and put the butt in my pocket to throw away later. I carry a little pouch to put my butts in when I hike so I don't litter. I follow whatever signs are visible concerning rules about smoking, If I know about a law prohibiting smoking somewhere, I follow those.

I never smoke in our home, we have a kid. I only occasionally smoke in my truck when my kid isn't with me. Hell, I try not to smoke at stop lights so it doesn't enter a nonsmoker's car.

My point is, smokers could absolutely be more considerate about where they smoke without much hassle. It really doesn't add any difficulty to my day.

There's whole lot of nonsmokers that are waaaay more inconsiderate with other activities of daily living, like driving and such.
 
I smoked for 25 years, quit the day I wrote the check for my first airplane (7/20/2002). Damned glad I did because I was young enough yet (42) that it really hadn't negatively affected me. I still love the smell of cigarette smoke especially when I have a beer in my hand. If I picked up a grit, I'd immediately be smoking a pack a day again. Definitely the most addictive freakin' thing I've ever been stupid enough to do.
 
Stan Cooper said:
Both my parents were three-packs-a-day unfiltered Camel smokers. The carpets and drapes in our home smelled like a dirty ashtray, and there was a brown icky nicotine film on all the window panes. It's a nasty, dirty, expensive habit that kills; emphysema from her smoking killed my mom at 55. I was the middle of five children and none of us ever picked up the habit, but my older brother died of lung cancer at 72 likely caused by second hand smoke to which he was exposed as a child according to his oncologist. I developed hypersensitivity from my exposure as a kid and can smell a lit cigarette a half a block away; it stings my nostrils. In the sixties I'd come home from a night on the town and my clothes and my hair stank of stale tobacco, so the clothes went in the dirty laundry hamper and I had to take a shower and wash my hair before going to bed.

Those days are history thanks to no smoking ordinances in most public places.
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That sounds like a rough way to grow up. Cigarette smoke doesn't bother me too much, but my wife, on the other hand, has a hard time with it. We can pull up behind a car sitting at a stoplight, and the person in front of us is smoking with the window down. And the small amount of smoke that comes in through our vents will cause my wife's breathing to become difficult. Not dangerously so, but it's like her diaphragm just stops working. It freezes her up. So of course, she hates the stuff.
 
To me it's simple... be courteous. I have people who show up at my hangar to have a beer and they light a cigarette. I'll quickly tell them to step outside of my hangar. I even have a big No Smoking sign, but I guess they think it's just one of my decorations!

I don't smoke. I don't like the smell of smoke. I don't want to smell like smoke and I don't want my hangar to smell like smoke. If you want to smoke, remember a lot of us choose not to put that in our lungs and you don't get to decide that only a little bit as we walk through your smoke cloud won't hurt us.

I had kidney cancer and my doctor, a professor at Johns Hopkins University told me he has found a link to people exposed to second-hand smoke getting this disease. If you're not a professor at Johns Hopkins, I'll simply dismiss your claim that it can't hurt me.

Again, it's simple courtesy. If you're going to smoke, step away from a crowd and don't hang out near a door to a building. It won't hurt you to take a few more steps. I promise I don't care if you smoke as long as none of it goes in my lungs.
 
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kgruber said:
abb331366db3fd31a050639577a95ad7.jpg
abb331366db3fd31a050639577a95ad7.jpg
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OMG......that’s Dale Robertson, cowboy movie/TV star!....and I have just officially confirmed I’m old!

Jim
 
simtech said:
https://news.stanford.edu/news/2007/may9/smoking-050907.html

Outdoor smoke is harmful, people die from second hand smoke. There it is. And yes stay away from them I understand and I do, don't worry.
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Lowflynjack said:
I had kidney cancer and my doctor, a professor at Johns Hopkins University told me he has found a link to people exposed to second-hand smoke getting this disease. If you're not a professor at Johns Hopkins, I'll simply dismiss your claim that it can't hurt me.
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I believe it, yet we see excuse after excuse for those who smoke to justify their habit as if there’s never been any conclusive research done about the dangers of smoking. Not sure if it’s sheer ignorance or just the refusal to accept the facts. Quite remarkable nonetheless! Thanks for sharing.
 
Ryanb said:
I believe it, yet we see excuse after excuse for those who smoke to justify their habit as if there’s never been any conclusive research done about the dangers of smoking. Not sure if it’s sheer ignorance or just the refusal to accept the facts. Quite remarkable nonetheless! Thanks for sharing.
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I know all the facts and have plans to quit. It's hard, I need to get rid of a lot of smoking triggers in my life if I'm to be successful.

I was doomed to smoke. I'm from a rural area where a buttload of tobacco is grown, I picked tens of tons of the stuff myself. Everyone in my Stepfather's family worked at RJR tobacco, tobacco literally paid our bills. And RJR paid well. It's a crappy place to work but they used to make it worth it, now, new management has figured out people will still work there for less.

We had what was probably the last student smoking area in the country in our highschool, I graduated in 1999. They did away with it before I graduated, but it was there when I started. Our teachers smoked in their offices, which were attached to the classrooms.

If you could see over the counter you could buy smokes from the gas station. I saw this happen. I commented that they keep starting younger. The store clerk said they were probably for their parents. Yup, right...

We were bored country kids. We smoked, we drank, we screwed, if you wanted to do something else, drive an hour to the city.
 
timwinters said:
I smoked for 25 years, quit the day I wrote the check for my first airplane (7/20/2002). Damned glad I did because I was young enough yet (42) that it really hadn't negatively affected me. I still love the smell of cigarette smoke especially when I have a beer in my hand. If I picked up a grit, I'd immediately be smoking a pack a day again. Definitely the most addictive freakin' thing I've ever been stupid enough to do.
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So now you get to join the club that one of my friends called all non-smokers:

"Damn second-hand smokers, smoking for free!"

One thing I note is that a lot of folks are polarized based on the courtesy noted from smokers. I would say that the vast majority of smokers I've come across are quite courteous to keep their habit away from non-smokers or people whose opinions they don't know.
 
Second hand smoke can and does trigger asthma attacks in some people. My wife, for example, is one such person. So we avoid areas where smoking is allowed, and do pretty well with that. But it gets fun when some selfish smoker walks around in a non-smoking area and blasts smoke right into our path before we can avoid it (which we shouldn't have to do, to begin with).

For those of you who are too blind to see how second hand smoke can have a detrimental impact on others, I pity you. You have rights, smoke in your designated areas. But please stay away from clearly marked no smoking areas.
 
Ryanb said:
...should be illegal.

I can't believe that people still smoke these days. Comprehensive smoking bans have been introduced to prohibit smoking in all public places like restaurants, bars, clubs, workplaces etc., even though some of these may not apply in all situations (ie, casinos).

Why are designated smoking areas out in public not a thing like they are in places like an airport? My health is important to me. I try to eat properly, exercise, get enough sleep - the whole nine, so why does someone else have the right to pollute my lungs and give me cancer? It's hard to even go out for a run without turning the block and running into a gaggle of smokers and being forced to breathe that crap in. Smoke wherever you want, but not around me!

Rant over.
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Stop at a Casey's General Store (gas station) in Lincoln NE on a weekday around 0630, I sweat every person that goes in there buys a pack of smokes for the day, thankfully I don't when I'm in there.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
If you were there during Oshkosh there's a good chance most of those smokers aren't from WI ;).
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If you were at Oshkosh, there's a good chance the people you met aren't from WI.
 
bnt83 said:
Stop at a Casey's General Store (gas station) in Lincoln NE on a weekday around 0630, I sweat every person that goes in there buys a pack of smokes for the day, thankfully I don't when I'm in there.
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Ill pass, but thanks.
 
simtech said:
https://news.stanford.edu/news/2007/may9/smoking-050907.html

Outdoor smoke is harmful, people die from second hand smoke. There it is. And yes stay away from them I understand and I do, don't worry.
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Not quite what that article, which was from 2007, claimed. It said that people who are downstream from smokers are exposed to harmful chemicals.

What would be more informative here is a study of a population showing that exposure to outdoor smoking causes increased deaths or illness.
 
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Ryanb said:
ts. Quite remarkable nonetheless! Thanks for sharing.
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That study did not demonstrate deaths or illness is related to exposure to outdoor smoking. Haven’t seen any demonstrating that in this thread yet.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Not quite what that article, which was from 2007, claimed. It said that people who are downstream from smokers are exposed to harmful chemicals.

What would be more informative here is a study of a population showing that exposure to outdoor smoking causes increased deaths or illness.
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What difference does it make if you’re outdoors or not? If you’re exposed to it, you’re exposed to it.
 
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