CBD and Hemp products

Greg Bockelman

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Greg Bockelman
I know nothing about this stuff, hence the post.

My chiropractor is distributing a product called HempWorx. He seems to think it is pretty much the cure for almost everything. Hemp has less than 0.3 % THC while canibus has more. Since “less than” is not the same as 0, it would seem like a product like HempWorx would be verboten for anyone flying airplanes.

I don’t know enough about this subject to discuss it intelligently. I guess I am just trying to learn.

So, what is allowable and what is not?
 
CBD has some level of THC and could test positive on a drug test. If you take drug tests for work, security, or play you should avoid the products. Any level of THC would be deemed the same as marijuana use by the FAA. THC is the detection method for marijuana, which is still an illegal drug at the federal level.
 
If you fly professionally I’d check your HR policies and see if it’s even allowed.
 
My chiropractor is distributing a product called HempWorx. He seems to think it is pretty much the cure for almost everything.

I find it sad that a medical professional would take to hawking an unproven substance, the adverse effects of which are as yet unknown.
 
I find it sad that a medical professional would take to hawking an unproven substance, the adverse effects of which are as yet unknown.
He didn’t say a medical professional, he said a chiropractor.


I’m kidding... sort of. I went to a chiropractor for a bit. Seemed to help, maybe. It did feel like a little bit of voodoo snake oil stuff.
 
He didn’t say a medical professional, he said a chiropractor.


I’m kidding... sort of. I went to a chiropractor for a bit. Seemed to help, maybe. It did feel like a little bit of voodoo snake oil stuff.

Look up how they become “doctors” and then be VERY careful if you use one.
 
I find it sad that a medical professional would take to hawking an unproven substance, the adverse effects of which are as yet unknown.

Or worse, that it actually does something which is completely unproven. Latest things I can think of açaí, pomegranate, apple cider vinegar, etc. and so on.
 
I’m kidding... sort of. I went to a chiropractor for a bit. Seemed to help, maybe. It did feel like a little bit of voodoo snake oil stuff.

All depends on what you’re going to them for and how good of one you’re using. It’s made a huge difference for my wife.
 
An additional worry about the CBD craze:
I have recently encountered 2 money tight private airports that have leased part of their property for "experimental" hemp farms. I know for a fact at least one of these airports is currently for sale.
Considering that hemp is a high profit crop, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that, given state approval, one or both of these airport owners will plow the runway under to plant a cash crop.
For those of us who are addicted to grass strips, it's a concern.
 
For those of us who are addicted to grass strips, it's a concern.

But that’s the best part about grass: it isn’t, like, addictive, man... that’s why I dig it.

(I believe those long skinny paved things are called roads.) ;)
 
I know nothing about this stuff, hence the post.

My chiropractor is distributing a product called HempWorx. He seems to think it is pretty much the cure for almost everything. Hemp has less than 0.3 % THC while canibus has more. Since “less than” is not the same as 0, it would seem like a product like HempWorx would be verboten for anyone flying airplanes.

I don’t know enough about this subject to discuss it intelligently. I guess I am just trying to learn.

So, what is allowable and what is not?

The Federal Air Surgeon addressed this in the last FAA Safety Briefing magazine.

MayJun2019 (1)_Page_07.jpg
 

I'm usually inclined to agree, but I've seen evidence first-hand that it can be beneficial. I have a very close fried who has a daughter (about a year old) who has suffered from almost daily seizures from the time she was just a month or two old. They had her on all sorts of anti-seizure medications, some of those drugs definitely make her groggy and affect her personality. He recently decided to try the CBD oil products (I forget which one) and the seizures have all but stopped. They have since been able to ween her off of two of the medications (especially the one which seemed to affect her personality) and are working on the third. It has literally changed their lives, and allowed them to see the true personality of their daughter. Again, I wouldn't have hardly believed it if I hadn't seen it myself. As it happens, he is a chiropractor as well, but didn't have any of those CBD products in his practice. I don't think there have been enough medical trials done to call it "snake oil", but I'm sure the vast majority of peddlers are claiming it will cure everything. I just wouldn't rule it out as being a decent alternative for certain issues (like seizures).
 
Witnessed a beautiful gal mid twenties seriously losing her life, she was seizing, paranoid, erratic, frightened, sad, you name it. Even had the law enforcement involved when she filed a protection order thinking her husband was trying to kill her. Hormone test all out of whack, MRI finds a tiny benign tumor on the pituitary. Applied prescription meds = improved with different symptoms. Applied CBD oil and cut her prescription meds in half, hasn't had a problem for several years now.

Another friend of mine is going through some serious **** like one of our POA members, she's on so many opioids to control chronic pain that IT IS turning into another serious health risk, She's been septic multiple times, her pain doctor said bluntly that she needs to move to Arizona or Colorado and find a way to cut the opioids. What sucks is a simple infection causes her to make terrible decision like over sleeping. So she misses a dose of muscle relaxant and it just all starts rolling downhill.
 
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I make my wife pot butter, she'll spread it on some toast. Sometimes she gets the CBD gummies from a shop. She has CRPS, the most painful condition known to pain specialists. She came to have it from losing part of her leg in the military, ten surgeries associated with that injury. She's not a pothead, she's not doing it for fun, she does it so she can walk.

I can tell you it works for her like no pill they've prescribed. I can tell you she would much rather be sober than have to take anything to get through the day, marijuana actually seems to be the least disruptive to her day. Her pain management doctor is one of the leading docs in the field and speaks at conferences and such about the reefer.

It's not snake oil. What's snake oil is the pills and intravenous drugs that get you high as avgas and destroys lives due to their addictive nature. I've had my own issues with prescription pain meds after an injury, I'm clean now. I hope that in the future, if I get hurt, I will decline any prescription pain meds like I should have done the first time.
 
I find it sad that a medical professional would take to hawking an unproven substance, the adverse effects of which are as yet unknown.
Walk into any major pharmacy and you will find a wall of CBD products - not to mention a second wall of other unproven products. So your sadness is destined to continue for a while.

Cheer up!

-Skip
 
Its interesting that so many FDA approved drugs end up in huge lawsuits, discontinued or other. A whole bunch of the new biological types have little to no long-term side effects history, are extremely dangerous, costly, and quite possibly ineffective.

To me those that discredit CBD and hemp products are grandstanding. Legalize it and let the people choose themselves, or is that too scary?

If my life was as bad as some people's I'd say screw it move to a pot state. Life is hard enough without near paralyzing pain and approved pharma in high doses draining my bank account and ruining my liver and kidneys.

(bilateral transmetatarsal with wrist disarticulation amputee)
 
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There was a time when I went to see a chiropractor. Then I learned about how the practice of it was developed and how it came to be legal and what kind of education is required of those who offer it. No more chiropractors for me.

CBD products? There have been indications it may be effective for certain things. The problem is the vast majority of the products currently being sold are completely unregulated. Which means you have no way of knowing what they actually contain nor what testing if any was done to verify its safety and efficacy. Doesn't mean they're unsafe. Does mean you have no way of knowing. And because they're unregulated, they can put literally anything on the label and make any kind of safety claims they want regardless of whether any research has been done to substantiate those claims.

The problem with taking medical advice from those who work in the cannabis industry is you need to trust your health and well being to those who work in the cannabis industry. These generally ain't Rhodes scholars and if the cannabis industry didn't exist, quite a few of them would be unemployed and playing video games in their mother's basement. If that's the kind of person you want to trust with decisions about what products you ingest, you're way braver than me.
 
The problem with taking medical advice from those who work in the cannabis industry is you need to trust your health and well being to those who work in the cannabis industry.
To be fair, trusting your health to big pharma isn't a guarantee of better results.
 
To be fair, trusting your health to big pharma isn't a guarantee of better results.

Wouldn't be the first time I've seen someone pay multiple thousands in prescription drugs only to react to the first dose. Refund? lol
 
To be fair, trusting your health to big pharma isn't a guarantee of better results.
Nope no guarantees in any of it. So you're left to play the odds. Would you trust your engine overhaul to someone with no FAA certificates who sources parts from junk yards? Or would you prefer to stick with a certified tech who uses only certified parts from verifiable sources?

Do you want to trust your health with products that have been tested to meet or exceed federal standards and have been manufactured in facilities that are inspected regularly? Or are you more comfortable with someone known by friends an associates as Toast who makes his special cancer cure in an old bathtub out of CBD oil and clorox and taco bell sauce packets (the actual packets, not the sauce)?
 
All depends on what you’re going to them for and how good of one you’re using. It’s made a huge difference for my wife.
Same here. My wife needs to go about once per month to keep a lifeguard injury at bay from when she was a teenager. Otherwise, she starts having shoulder and hip pain.

Then a couple of years ago, my lower back suddenly started causing me immense pain. Sometimes, I could not even get up to walk. I was amazed at how good the chiropractors at her practice are (first time ever going to one). They could tell me where I hurt by feeling of my lower back, I didn't have to tell them. They got rid of the pain over a couple of weeks, and one trip a month keeps me doing fine. I have not had a reoccurrence. I'm sold, at least on that practice, not necessarily all chiros.
 
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I think people aught to have choices. With the advent of social media and very good support groups, groups of people can report about things that work for them. There is no reason these things shouldn't be a choice. If your career will not allow it than there are more things to consider. Many of these people have already sacrificed their chosen career to survive.
 
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Look up how they become “doctors” and then be VERY careful if you use one.

Just like with DO/MD, chiropractors can be excellent or they can be hacks. Some doctors want to medicate anything and everything, so they can be just as dangerous.

The few chiropractors I know, are outstanding individuals and are constantly attending seminars and educational courses to further their knowledge in the field of chiropractic medicine. Just because they didn't spend a decade in medical school and residency programs doesn't mean they can't be competent about human physiology. I've never been to a chiropractor myself, but I know enough to see that some simply "crack backs", and some use a variety of techniques, equipment, and evaluations to offer the best option. The good ones know that chiropractic medicine isn't the solution for every source of pain, and they'll redirect you if that's the case.
 
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I find it interesting that the FAA article mentioned/excerpted above doesn't explicitly take the position that CBD oil (non-THC) is impermissible. It appears to simply explain that if a pilot uses CBD oil (the "non-THC tyle") and fails a drug screen that it's not an excuse.
 
Nope no guarantees in any of it. So you're left to play the odds. Would you trust your engine overhaul to someone with no FAA certificates who sources parts from junk yards? Or would you prefer to stick with a certified tech who uses only certified parts from verifiable sources?

Do you want to trust your health with products that have been tested to meet or exceed federal standards and have been manufactured in facilities that are inspected regularly? Or are you more comfortable with someone known by friends an associates as Toast who makes his special cancer cure in an old bathtub out of CBD oil and clorox and taco bell sauce packets (the actual packets, not the sauce)?

Certification (be it an aircraft repair station, avionics/aircraft, or medicine) provides a level of oversight to ensure a minimum standard. Whether you're talking about aviation maintenance or healthcare, a lack of certification does not guarantee poor results.

So to answer your question, if it were legal for me to do so and I could acquire the appropriate documentation and tools, I'd enjoy doing my own engine rebuilds using quality parts sourced from proper sources, and I also am confident that I could build an engine that was better than you'd get from some shops because of some of the "blueprinting" details that many shops either don't know or wouldn't care enough to do.

Now, to your point about medicine, for any ailment I've had in my life that's required medical attention, I've gone to a doctor who's poked and prodded me, given me some pills, and it fixes things. But I would be open to looking at other sources as well provided research gave me some indications that the potential benefits outweighed the risks.

For now, I'm pretty healthy (thank God), so fortunately I don't need to think about it too much.
 
I find it interesting that the FAA article mentioned/excerpted above doesn't explicitly take the position that CBD oil (non-THC) is impermissible. It appears to simply explain that if a pilot uses CBD oil (the "non-THC tyle") and fails a drug screen that it's not an excuse.
It does say that Epidiolex, the only FDA approved version of CBD, is approved for treatment of seizures associated with 2 specific forms of epilepsy.

The CBD available from the corner shop, or chiropractor, or wherever, is the non-regulated kind.

Other than that, I suppose if you go to the CBD/vape store then it isn't considered a "visit to a medical professional". And since it isn't marijuana, then it doesn't fall under the illegal drug category of reporting (I'm not an AME!!!). But because it *might* have levels of THC that could trigger a positive drug test, you are on your own.

Some brands of CBD are claiming they use independent labs to ensure low levels of THC.
 
Now, to your point about medicine, for any ailment I've had in my life that's required medical attention, I've gone to a doctor who's poked and prodded me, given me some pills, and it fixes things. But I would be open to looking at other sources as well provided research gave me some indications that the potential benefits outweighed the risks.
And you'd be comfortable taking a product that that is manufactured with no oversight, has never been tested and which may have risks which the manufacturer and the practitioner under no obligation to inform you of if they they are known?

Don't get me wrong. I am all for investigating the true medical uses of cannabis products and making those products available if they are shown to be safe and effective. But I believe any kind of product like that should have some oversight and safety guidelines that the manufacturer is required to follow. Right now, that is not the case for most of these products. I feel that way about all alternative medicine. It should be available, but it should also be regulated and manufacturers and sellers should have the same requirements for proving all label claims as every other drug manufacturer.

Of course if all producers of alternative medicine products were required to produce board certified efficacy data from independent labs before they could market their products, the alternative medicine industry would disappear instantly.
 
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And you'd be comfortable taking a product that that is manufactured with no oversight, has never been tested and which may have risks which the manufacturer and the practitioner under no obligation to inform you of if they they are known?

Don't get me wrong. I am all for investigating the true medical uses of cannabis products and making those products available if they are shown to be safe and effective. But I believe any kind of product like that should have some oversight and safety guidelines that the manufacturer is required to follow. Right now, that is not the case for most of these products. I feel that way about all alternative medicine. It should be available, but it should also be regulated and manufacturers and sellers should have the same requirements for proving all label claims as every other drug manufacturer.

I believe what I wrote answers your question. I have been fortunate enough in my life to have not suffered from anything that would prompt me to think outside the box of standard medicine.

I'm in agreement that some form of evaluation and oversight is a good thing and wouldn't say otherwise. I would not inherently use that as a sole basis for dismissing an option if I felt the benefits outweighed the risks. I'm also talking in general, not specific to CBD oil (which I have looked into precisely zero as I have no reason to).

For now I'll stick to researching things for my Cobra.
 
And you'd be comfortable taking a product that that is manufactured with no oversight, has never been tested and which may have risks which the manufacturer and the practitioner under no obligation to inform you of if they they are known?....
I don't really see CBD as being any different than other vitamins and supplements. They are not regulated, either. CBD is not really a manufactured product like regulated pharmaceuticals. It is a natural product where the manufacturing involved is extracting it from the plant, and then inserting it into some type of delivery system.

Now, as to how its use applies to pilots and the FAA, that's another subject entirely.
 
Do you want to trust your health with products that have been tested to meet or exceed federal standards and have been manufactured in facilities that are inspected regularly? Or are you more comfortable with someone known by friends an associates as Toast who makes his special cancer cure in an old bathtub out of CBD oil and clorox and taco bell sauce packets (the actual packets, not the sauce)?

The market will create standards if the Feds don’t. They can get on it or be left behind, their choice. Every store and every chiropractor and any massage shop and who the hell knows who else here has a brand of this stuff now here. All it’ll take is one bad batch hurting someone and one lawsuit and the problem will solve itself.

I think people aught to have choices. With the advent of social media and very good support groups, groups of people can report about things that work for them. There is no reason these things shouldn't be a choice. If your career will not allow it than there are more things to consider. Many of these people have already sacrificed their chosen career to survive.

I’ve sure learned about that seeing the people with my disorder who are paralyzed from it. Whew. Life changes. And you’ll try anything after that.

I don't really see CBD as being any different than other vitamins and supplements. They are not regulated, either. CBD is not really a manufactured product like regulated pharmaceuticals. It is a natural product where the manufacturing involved is extracting it from the plant, and then inserting it into some type of delivery system.

Now, as to how its use applies to pilots and the FAA, that's another subject entirely.

That’s why pharma will actively fight it with lobbying instead of studying it. Can’t charge $38,000 a dose for it.

Will I try it while I’m grounded anyway? Not sure. Should folks who don’t have to worry about FAA or other Fed War On A Plant massive law enforcement money issues blocking it? Up to them. (I’m specifically talking about CBD not THC but frankly if you’re not working a critical or dangerous job, I don’t care if you’re using THC and can function but I’m concerned about you driving to work.)

I now have a rare disorder and get to see the dark side of Federal regulation of drugs. With one of my possibilities being a disorder that kills 40% of patients in the first five years of diagnosis and only 300 people a year diagnosed, as an engineer I see these problems clearly now:

Takes a minimum of 500 people and a long term study to obtain FDA approval for something on-label. You’re one of 300 a year who get this. You going to agree to come off of your off-label drug that appears to be keeping you out of relapse to “try” the new drug and take a risk that you die because you got the placebo? You know what, people do it, and they’re saints. That’s absolutely insane. But that’s the deal the government gives you if you want FDA Approval.

Now mix that with this second problem. Some crappy insurances refuse to approve any drug that is NOT FDA approved and is being used off-label.

Wait a minute... can’t have a drug that will keep you alive but nothing is FDA approved and nobody wants to die to find out if something can be.

The MOST common treatment for cousins to MS is rituiximab. Guess what isn’t FDA approved for those off-label uses? You guessed it. Every MS patient can get it, no problem at all. Every cousin to MS? Maybe your insurance will allow it, maybe they won’t, maybe they’ll make you wait and possibly die while they make a determination that your doc isn’t a moron to try it.

Guess what’s going off of patent and will be even cheaper than it already is? Rituximab.

Guess what isn’t? Nearly an identical drug from the same manufacturer that will have ten years of profit protection. Ocrevus.

Guess which one costs $38,000 an dose? Guess which one they FDA approved for more things even though rituximab has been used off-label for a decade?

Yeah. After learning all of this, I won’t ever lecture anybody with a rare disorder about trying ANYTHING out there ever again.

The FDA process for rare diseases and disorders without cures is absolutely and completely broken.

Oh forgot to mention. You know what else will happen? Docs wanting to use a particular drug will just LIE about the diagnosis. It’ll cause other problems maybe down the road for the patient, but if it gets the doc the drug they want? It’s going to happen.

For all these docs know — on SOME of these related disorders the patient DOES have the more common one that’s “on-label”, too. But they have to be free to use their brains and prescribe EXACTLY what they want to. So they’re going to write down “patient has this disorder” and go with it.

Do I trust the FDA process on simple stuff that isn’t rare and lots of data is available? Sure.

I trust the specialty docs a lot more on rare and exploratory issues when they’re still trying to figure it out.

Pushing the idea that FDA approval is some end all for things breaks when insurance companies suddenly think that’s true. Doesn’t work for rare diseases and disorders. Flat ass broken. Go see for yourself.
 
I’ve speedread the posts above since my post on CBD, and as a quick follow up I’d like to interject that there seems to be confusion here between THC efficacy and CBD.
I fully agree that THC (ie Medical Marijuana) has efficacy in a number of settings.....CBD without THC not so much (any).
 
I find it interesting that the FAA article mentioned/excerpted above doesn't explicitly take the position that CBD oil (non-THC) is impermissible. It appears to simply explain that if a pilot uses CBD oil (the "non-THC tyle") and fails a drug screen that it's not an excuse.

Exactly. On the Medxpress application, question 18(n) asks, among other things, if you've ever failed a drug test ever, including marijuana. The FAS is clarifying that if you report that you failed a drug test due to traces of THC, the excuse that it was because you were using CBD oil won't suffice. They will assume you were getting high, and will process your application accordingly.
 
I’ve speedread the posts above since my post on CBD, and as a quick follow up I’d like to interject that there seems to be confusion here between THC efficacy and CBD.
I fully agree that THC (ie Medical Marijuana) has efficacy in a number of settings.....CBD without THC not so much (any).
So I assume from that you’ve never tried CBD.
 
So I assume from that you’ve never tried CBD.
What would that have to do with anything?
That, and any number of posts here, would be N=1 “evidence” - which is noncompelling.
If a good double blind randomized trial is produced to efficacy, then I’d be swayed.
 
What would that have to do with anything?
That, and any number of posts here, would be N=1 “evidence” - which is noncompelling.
If a good double blind randomized trial is produced to efficacy, then I’d be swayed.
Well, at least you don’t believe vaccines work, either. ;)
 
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