Multi-hour Airline Delays

Ryanb said:
I realize that any airline is a total crap shoot, but this trip was my first on AA and it wasn’t too convincing. Knock on wood, I’ve almost always had great experiences on Delta and SWA. AAL’s punctuality on average seems to be lacking.
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AA is a disaster right now. For starters, the mechanics have been engaging in a job action (according to management, who, in turn, haven't done enough to get a new contract). Management has indicated that there are nearly twice as many planes OTS each day than normal. Add in the Max groundings and there's going to be a lot of delays and poor recovery from weather. Of course, the regional is a bit different but mainline is a mess. And there are more contract negotiations (pilots) coming up soon.

Add to that the fact that the CEO has indicated that they code everything they can as a weather delay (avoids putting up pax for the night), even if the weather delay was earlier in the day.

There are quite a number of high value passengers that count on reliable service that have moved to other airlines as a result of the issues (and the decimation of customer service).

And yes, AA leadership is the same group that ran America West and US Air. It appears to many that they can't decide whether they want to be a premium carrier or a low cost carrier.

It's a mess.
 
chartbundle said:
There's no problem with LAX that couldn't be solved by shooting the whole thing into space.
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The planet is trying very hard to shrug off the bad part of California. Just let it have a few more shakes and the whole thing will hopefully be rejected, float off and become its own sovereign island nation.
 
wsuffa said:
AA is a disaster right now. For starters, the mechanics have been engaging in a job action (according to management, who, in turn, haven't done enough to get a new contract). Management has indicated that there are nearly twice as many planes OTS each day than normal. Add in the Max groundings and there's going to be a lot of delays and poor recovery from weather. Of course, the regional is a bit different but mainline is a mess. And there are more contract negotiations (pilots) coming up soon.

Add to that the fact that the CEO has indicated that they code everything they can as a weather delay (avoids putting up pax for the night), even if the weather delay was earlier in the day.

There are quite a number of high value passengers that count on reliable service that have moved to other airlines as a result of the issues (and the decimation of customer service).

And yes, AA leadership is the same group that ran America West and US Air. It appears to many that they can't decide whether they want to be a premium carrier or a low cost carrier.

It's a mess.
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I believe it. They have work to do for what’s supposed to be a ‘flagship carrier’.
 
wsuffa said:
There are quite a number of high value passengers that count on
And yes, AA leadership is the same group that ran America West and US Air. It appears to many that they can't decide whether they want to be a premium carrier or a low cost carrier.
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This is the bottom line, as far as I’m concerned. They need to figure out what they really want to be. Not sure we’ll see much change without a change at the top, however. The mechanics will eventually get a contract - hopefully soon.

That said, the ontime performance of various airlines isn’t as wide as people want to make it out to be - “xxx airlines is ALWAYS late!”

https://www.oag.com/hubfs/Free_Reports/Punctuality_League/2019/Punctuality League 2019 Single Pages.pdf?hsCtaTracking=a972b63a-0e87-42f2-b38c-4403da7486e4|fc63da32-5d0b-4e5d-82a8-81d1e0dca737

AA gets a lot of crap on this board (and I agree it’s a mess), but it’s still ontime only 6% less than Delta. I fly mornings so I tend to see fewer issues and I fly out of a good hub, but of the couple thousand or so segments I’ve flown for the airline, 92.4% landed early, ontime, or within 15 minutes of on time (yeah yeah, I’m a dork with my logbook). ;)
 
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AggieMike88 said:
Slight thread drift question....

When the situation like what happened to Ryan in LAX occurs, is the flight crew and FA's considered "on the clock" and being paid for that time?
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We get paid “block or better”. If the door is closed with the brake released, we are on the clock, even if we sit four hours waiting to go.
If we never board we are paid the scheduled block.
 
July is the 'busy season'. No airline has enough airplanes in July to meet demand. Add in weather disruptions and you're completely out of slack in the system. In February, October, etc. there's plenty of extra airplanes and crews.
 
Ryanb said:
I’m sure that PSA has aircraft out on hardstands at a big hub like CLT. Again, just my own juvenile thinking.

Nonetheless, I got a nice CRJ-900 cockpit tour at the end by a nice CA.
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I work for a regional with lots of aircraft operating from CLT. We do have a handful of spares, but none kept at CLT that I know of. Our spares are constantly all in service. Spare aircraft often have to be moved to fill a spot, which requires spare crews. Its tough. Cancelling flights outright is a bad deal, because those aircraft have revenue flights departing from those destination airports.

In my position, we know pretty well about any delays. Pilots are often in the dark. Weather has been a big deal this past week. Violent thunderstorms at one airport can have an enormous affect for the rest of the day in our entire region. Wednesday DCA had a 3+ hour ground stop, Thursday CLT did, those have huge impacts on our schedule.

Those aircraft then come in for MX 3-4 hours late and you find an issue, if a part not kept at your base and not deferrable you have some real problems. Now aircraft are late out of MX for the first flight of the morning which can result in lates all day.

Its not an easy business. Hindsight is always 20-20.
 
jordane93 said:
Look up completion factor. Delta is notorious for putting 12-16 hour delays on flights to up their metrics.
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I did a quick Google and in their latest report, the completion factor was 98% in 2018 and has improved to 99% so far in 2019.

Example: https://www.streetinsider.com/Corpo...c+Increases+6.2%+Capacity+Up+4%/15668765.html

So, to repeat: ?????

The primary reason my wife and I have used Delta for years is because they're rarely delayed. In fact, we've never had a delay of more than a few minutes, and that was airport-related (too busy, bad weather, whatever).
 
Stephen Poole said:
The primary reason my wife and I have used Delta for years is because they're rarely delayed. In fact, we've never had a delay of more than a few minutes, and that was airport-related (too busy, bad weather, whatever).
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Their ontime performance in 2018 was 83% - so they were delayed 17% of the time. What Jordan is saying is that on an extended delay, Delta will keep pushing the delay even to the next day rather than simply cancel the flight. That improves their completion factor.
 
Stephen Poole said:
I did a quick Google and in their latest report, the completion factor was 98% in 2018 and has improved to 99% so far in 2019.

Example: https://www.streetinsider.com/Corporate+News/Delta+Air+Lines+(DAL)+June+Traffic+Increases+6.2%+Capacity+Up+4%/15668765.html

So, to repeat: ?????

The primary reason my wife and I have used Delta for years is because they're rarely delayed. In fact, we've never had a delay of more than a few minutes, and that was airport-related (too busy, bad weather, whatever).
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The reason why their completion factor is so high is because of their lengthy 10+ hour delays. Instead of canceling the flight, they’ll delay it until the next morning and add to their completion factor percentage. They’ll say, “hey we got you to your destination (but 18 hours later).
 
https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/201...a-Newark-Philadelphia-airports/2671548430429/

I got caught up in an ATC staffing shortage not to long ago. There was a bit of weather earlier at the time, then the WX improved but the delays got longer. It was a holiday weekend evening. Of course passengers sitting in a plane don’t want to hear anything about ATC shortages. That would be interpreted an an ‘excuse’.
 
jordane93 said:
The reason why their completion factor is so high is because of their lengthy 10+ hour delays. Instead of canceling the flight, they’ll delay it until the next morning and add to their completion factor percentage. They’ll say, “hey we got you to your destination (but 18 hours later).
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I think you just don't like Delta. Cite some evidence.

First I point out that they're the best on time. You say check "completion factor." I did.

Every time I or anyone I know has flown Delta, we've gotten there on schedule, luggage in hand. I can't say the same for American/US Air, which is why I switched.
 
Stephen Poole said:
I think you just don't like Delta. Cite some evidence.
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Heh heh - you're barking up the wrong tree there. His Dad works for Delta. He wants to work for Delta. He's just stating a known tactic they use to improve their completion factor. That's all.

Delta runs a great airline. But regardless of your handful of experiences, they are late 17% of the time. If you look at the statistics everyone is within about 10% of each other. If you fly enough you *will* be delayed from time to time - doesn't matter the airline. That's not Delta hate - it's just the nature of flying commercial.
 
Stephen Poole said:
I think you just don't like Delta. Cite some evidence.

First I point out that they're the best on time. You say check "completion factor." I did.

Every time I or anyone I know has flown Delta, we've gotten there on schedule, luggage in hand. I can't say the same for American/US Air, which is why I switched.
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I think we’re talking past each other. I fly for a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta and my dad is a Captain at Delta so no I’m not hater. I actually would love to work for Delta. I know their on time performance is great. I’m telling you to look at another statistic called completion factor. Delta strategically touts this metric but it’s a flawed statistic due to consistently posting overnight delays. They complete 99% of flights (or whatever it is) but don’t tell you that they are delaying flights sometimes up to 18 hours to add to this statistic. As a reserve captain, I’m often called into to fly these overnight delayed flights so I have actually have some sort of experience with it and not just blowing hot air:). Again, Delta is a tremendous airline and they have a fantastic product but you can’t just take on time performance as gospel. You have to look at the other metrics.
 
jordane93 said:
I think we’re talking past each other. I fly for a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta and my dad is a Captain at Delta so no I’m not hater. I actually would love to work for Delta. I know their on time performance is great. I’m telling you to look at another statistic called completion factor. Delta strategically touts this metric but it’s a flawed statistic due to consistently posting overnight delays. They complete 99% of flights (or whatever it is) but don’t tell you that they are delaying flights sometimes up to 18 hours to add to this statistic. As a reserve captain, I’m often called into to fly these overnight delayed flights so I have actually have some sort of experience with it and not just blowing hot air:). Again, Delta is a tremendous airline and they have a fantastic product but you can’t just take on time performance as gospel. You have to look at the other metrics.
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Ah. Well, then, I apologize for the insinuation. I even doff my hat to you and your father. [insert smilie of Stephen doffing his hat]

I guess I still don't understand what "completion factor" is or how one might diddle it.
 
Stephen Poole said:
Ah. Well, then, I apologize for the insinuation. I even doff my hat to you and your father. [insert smilie of Stephen doffing his hat]

I guess I still don't understand what "completion factor" is or how one might diddle it.
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Completion factor is the percentage of flights that are completed (not canceled). So in order to pad the completion factor number (aka not cancel flights), Delta would rather delay a flight into the next morning. For example, JFK-BOS is scheduled to depart at 830pm tonight. Due to weather, crews out of position, and rest issues, Delta decided to delay the flight until tomorrow morning at 830am where they can have fresh crews ready. So instead of canceling the flight, they just delay the flight for 12 hours and that flight is considered “completed,” adding another flight to the completion factor statistic. So when an airline says, we have a 99.9% completion factor you have to consider other variables. It does mean they cancel only 0.1% of flights but how many of those flights were delayed overnight that should have really been canceled.
 
Honestly, all of the major airlines are pretty close to equal. For every person that has had a delay, cancellation, lost bag,etc. at Delta, there is someone else that has had the same experience at a different airline. I've flown them all, and had good days and bad days. "Time to spare, go by air!"
 
I did two legs on Delta in the past 24 hours. The first flight arrived before customs opened at ATL. The second one arrived 30 minutes early at SFO, then had to wait for a gate...

We were so early at ATL that my bag made it to SFO on an earlier flight than the one I took.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Amazing how passengers think that there are all sorts of spare aircraft and spare parts and other unlimited resources just sitting around at airports, just in case.
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Never my assumption, however at the hubs, there are additional aircraft around. I wouldn’t expect for there to be spare airplanes sitting around at the spokes.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Honestly, all of the major airlines are pretty close to equal. For every person that has had a delay, cancellation, lost bag,etc. at Delta, there is someone else that has had the same experience at a different airline. I've flown them all, and had good days and bad days. "Time to spare, go by air!"
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Yep. I've had mostly great experiences with AA, even out of CLT where I currently live. No real complaints. Also pretty good results with Delta. I've had a couple of bad experiences with United but I know people who rave about them and rant about AA. And btw, along with my couple of bad experiences with United, I've had several good ones as well. It's just typical randomness, chaos theory, luck of the draw, what have you. People who extrapolate their one experience or a few experiences into some greater meaning are not thinking clearly or just want to ***** and moan.
 
Everskyward said:
I did two legs on Delta in the past 24 hours. The first flight arrived before customs opened at ATL. The second one arrived 30 minutes early at SFO, then had to wait for a gate...

We were so early at ATL that my bag made it to SFO on an earlier flight than the one I took.
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That’s why I don’t even try to leave early anymore. Going into a hub, if you’re like 30 minutes early you’ll most likely be waiting for a gate. I left early a few months ago. We touched down 40 minutes early and waited for our gate. We ended up getting a gate change to remote parking in JFK and were 10 minutes late. Delta did a survey and pax don’t like waiting for a gate even if we are 30 minutes early.
 
On a PSA plane right now. Delayed over 30 minutes because a company required sticker was not on the overhead bin. Aircraft had been recently transferred to PSA from another AE sub...
 
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