How much plane can I afford?

[Juliet Hotel]

I would strongly recommend forgetting the sightseeing fantasy. There is no gold in that hole. Its a cost offset/break even model at best. And by cost offset I mean a plane that is already making money doing something else. And by at best I mean with a biplane that holds 2 pax in the front hole and is rigged to shoot video of the flight from multiple cameras. If you ain't got that, you ain't breaking even or anywhere close.

 

[EdFred]

“Some of you are giving me good information and some of you make it seem like I need to make 250k a year to afford a cessna 152 so let me just ask you this:...”

You better believe it ... between me and my wife we made 230k last year and I am still often questioning myself if I can afford this ( and I only own and maintain a small , 2 seater , 120 knots LSA... )

That depends on a lot of things though. I don't make what you make, however:

I bought a house that was 1/4 the price of what I qualified for, and paid it off in 7 years.
With no house payment, I was able to eliminate having car payments. (though car payments were eliminated prior to house payoff, but have bought 2 cars since)
With no house or car payments I was able to sock away a bunch of money, and write a check for an airplane (9 years after I bought the house)
In May, I finally took my first real vacation since 2005.

So, while making less than you and your wife, I am probably able to have more towards aviation because I didn't overspend in other areas. There's also the cost of living on where someone lives as well. My non aviation monthly budget consists of
$250 - Internet, cable, cellular
$170 - Property Taxes
$300 - House, car, truck, life, liability insurances
$300 - Food
$100 - Entertainment
$150 - Gas and Misc

That's about it. So lets make the aviation budget $1500 month, of that I have fixed costs of
$80 - insurance
$185 - hangar
$700 - 10 hours of fuel (that's on the high side though - it's closer to $570)

That leaves $535 a month for maintenance, oil changes, and gotchas.

I only need to bring home around $35k after taxes to afford this life. Between the Fed 22% and the state 4.4% (?) income taxes, I only need to make $45k a year to live this lifestyle. (Assuming I didn't forget something in my list above) Coincidentally, that is my salary - which I never bothered to really correlate until just now.

Now, if you are like most people in the $200k range you probably have a house that's upwards of $300k (maybe you don't but probability says so) but that's $2000+ a month, so there's another $33k you need to make before taxes. A couple car payments at $300/month, you need to make another $10k... then of course your property taxes are higher since the house costs more, and now the insurance does as well.

If you pay everything off before getting into aviation, well, it becomes a whole lot easier to live with an airplane. IF the OP didn't have all those monthly payments he could easily afford a 4 place airplane.

Disclosure: I do get a yearly bonus, but that never goes against the budget, because some years it might be $0. The years I do take one, most of it goes to retirement investment, emergency funds, and the rest on hookers and blow.


Edit: I didn't check all the math numbers, I may be off.

 

[Warmi]

Of course, you know best how much you can afford and being frugal and cautious as far as your finances ( and of course ultimately having a reasonably stable income) makes all the difference.

As far as my original comment .. yes, I can afford the plane no problem as far as paying all my bills on time etc - what I am wondering sometimes if spending so much money on something that is ultimately a hobby and really a toy ... is it really wise...

I guess someone who could truly afford a toy like that would not be asking themselves these sort of questions in the first place ...

 

[EdFred]

Of course, you know best how much you can afford and being frugal and cautious as far as your finances ( and of course ultimately having a reasonably stable income) makes all the difference.

As far as my original comment .. yes, I can afford the plane no problem as far as paying all my bills on time etc - what I am wondering sometimes if spending so much money on something that is ultimately a hobby and really a toy ... is it really wise...

I guess someone who could truly afford a toy like that would not be asking themselves these sort of questions in the first place ...

Oh, I could maybe be retired by now had I never taken up aviation. But then are we really living, or just surviving?

 

[denverpilot]

Don’t buy a plane. Figure out how you’re going to do each step with cash. One step at a time, if you’re going for a career. It’ll work out much better.

Cash for the private certificate is first. Start now hammering the budget to nothing and saving.

There’s unnecessary risk in ownership that won’t let you focus on the goal, if the goal is to fly for a living. And to get there, break the goals up into bite-sized pieces.

You’ll need between $10-$15K saved up for the first rating. You have three more ratings after that of different costs, and lot of hours to fly before ATP.

Add three more ratings if you want to teach and be paid to do so.

A four place airplane that has an auto-pilot and can safely transport you to South America and do sightseeing is too much and will stop you from flying more than it will allow it at your budget level.

And sightseeing is dead for regulatory reasons. Bob hinted at why. Even true sightseeing companies don’t pay their fixed wing pilots a decent wage, and have fairly high hour requirements for insurance reasons. Don’t bother.

 

[JOhnH]

That depends on a lot of things though. I don't make what you make, however:

I bought a house that was 1/4 the price of what I qualified for, and paid it off in 7 years.
With no house payment, I was able to eliminate having car payments. (though car payments were eliminated prior to house payoff, but have bought 2 cars since)
With no house or car payments I was able to sock away a bunch of money, and write a check for an airplane (9 years after I bought the house)
In May, I finally took my first real vacation since 2005.

So, while making less than you and your wife, I am probably able to have more towards aviation because I didn't overspend in other areas. There's also the cost of living on where someone lives as well. My non aviation monthly budget consists of
$250 - Internet, cable, cellular
$170 - Property Taxes
$300 - House, car, truck, life, liability insurances
$300 - Food
$100 - Entertainment
$150 - Gas and Misc

That's about it. So lets make the aviation budget $1500 month, of that I have fixed costs of
$80 - insurance
$185 - hangar
$700 - 10 hours of fuel (that's on the high side though - it's closer to $570)

That leaves $535 a month for maintenance, oil changes, and gotchas.

I only need to bring home around $35k after taxes to afford this life. Between the Fed 22% and the state 4.4% (?) income taxes, I only need to make $45k a year to live this lifestyle. (Assuming I didn't forget something in my list above) Coincidentally, that is my salary - which I never bothered to really correlate until just now.

Now, if you are like most people in the $200k range you probably have a house that's upwards of $300k (maybe you don't but probability says so) but that's $2000+ a month, so there's another $33k you need to make before taxes. A couple car payments at $300/month, you need to make another $10k... then of course your property taxes are higher since the house costs more, and now the insurance does as well.

If you pay everything off before getting into aviation, well, it becomes a whole lot easier to live with an airplane. IF the OP didn't have all those monthly payments he could easily afford a 4 place airplane.

Disclosure: I do get a yearly bonus, but that never goes against the budget, because some years it might be $0. The years I do take one, most of it goes to retirement investment, emergency funds, and the rest on hookers and blow.


Edit: I didn't check all the math numbers, I may be off.

Ed, I often think I would live within those budget numbers (except that my hangar is $450/month) if I were single.

But I am married with no kids and most of those expenses need to be quadrupled. My wife spends more on books and shoes than you do on house, car, truck, insurance and food. But I will say in her defense that her lifetime salary has allowed her to do that with absolutely no debt other than taxes and utilities.

 

[Old Crow]

I would suggest that the FIRST thing you should do since you envision an airline career is to get an FAA First Class Medical! I've known people who went through PPl, Comm, Instr dreaming of the airlines only to find out they had a problem physically and couldn't get or hold the First Class Medical. 30 years ago when I went to the airlines that was one of the first things they asked.

 

[N1120A]

First thing - don't buy a 172. They are extremely overpriced on the market. Get a Cherokee 180/Archer or even a Grumman Cheetah/Tiger - much better idea, and good training aircraft.

 

[southallb]

I purchased a PA28-180 for $25K (3700TT, 1900 since OH, IFR) about 3 months ago. Pre-buy ($700), 3 new tires ($850), Replaced a radio and altimeter ($3600), bought a cover and cowl plugs ($300), tie down is $37/month.
Based on initial cost to own the plane ($32K) and the fixed and variable costs seen below.

Annual Fixed Costs:
Tie down: $444 ($37/month)
Annual: $1500
Insurance: $775

Variable Costs: ($105/hour)
Overhaul: $30/hour
Fuel: $50/hour
Oil: $5/hour
Maintenance: $20/hour

Based on these numbers and assuming I fly 50 hours/year and no major maintenance issues arise, it will take me 50 years (I am 47) to make it worth owning vs renting a plane at $150/hr. (assuming 1% inflation/year).

Owning a plane is a terrible financial decision vs. renting...there are a ton of other reasons to own a plane, finances just aren't one of them, Freedom isn't free.

General aviation proves the Bible is true...Proverbs 23:5!

 

[swingwing]

I will be using the plane starting out to do sightseeing tours on the side to make extra money and build hours.

The feds frown upon aircraft owners with a commercial license “holding out”... 14 CFR 119. ( I’m currently studying for my commercial checkride so I’m learning about all this fun stuff)

 

[bflynn]

Numbers wise - I’ve run this several times and there are some false statements in here. What stands out most, it is not always cheaper to rent, especially if flying a lot of hours. Whoever is running the rental has all the same expenses you have plus some AND they want a profit on top of it. There is a break even point, which I have found is usually around 5-7 hours per month, depend on the the exact plane, etc

I come with about $90-$100 an hour to operate a 1980 Warrior. That includes a loan, insurance, ramp parking (which is reasonable to do here), 8.5 gph, $15/hour engine reserve and another $15 per hour for maintenance reserve. Now obviously there are some monthly costs mixed in, so the cost per hour varies by how much you fly. You might trade down a little in plane size and get this to $70/hour for a 152, but I can’t see it going lower. But the more you fly, the more you spend, 10 hours a month is $700-$1000 and it will be over a decade before you have 1500 hours for an atp. But owning with 0 hours per month means still paying for all the fixed costs.

The other big thing is being ready to pay bills. I include $30 per hour as a real cost, money moved into a separate account for future maintenance. But you need to have that account funded in advance because there will be things that come up, maybe on your first flight. When they happen, not having the money to pay for them means full stop on everything. You don’t fly, your plane doesn’t fly and you’re done until you can fix it.

 

[denverpilot]

The feds frown upon aircraft owners with a commercial license “holding out”... 14 CFR 119. ( I’m currently studying for my commercial checkride so I’m learning about all this fun stuff)

Nothing illegal about that at all for sightseeing.

You missed a reg about how to go about it.
(Hint: You need something from a local FSDO. And of course, the exact reg number was posted by Bob, above...)

Sightseeing is a paperwork pain in the ass. Let alone the necessary insurance. Many clubs and such cheat, and pretend the flight is the person’s “first instructional flight” and they “didn’t come back after the first lesson”.

They’ll get away with it until there’s an accident and then the walks like a duck and quacks like a duck will destroy the CFI’s career and bankrupt the club. But it was worth it for .6 of an hour more flight time, right? LOL.

 

[6t6]

Here is a better approach. Buy the plane you really want with the avionics you desire. Make the payments. If possible get the wife to help make the payments too. This will help in two ways: 1 the extra income and 2 she will be too busy to actually see what you are spending on the plane. The last and maybe the most important. Don't ever figure up what you are spending on an hourly basis on aircraft ownership. Lastly enjoy and fly. Also keep an eye open for a new wife.

 

[Robin Hood]

I want to buy a plane in a couple years (around January 2022). My planned financial situation will be as follows

Wife income 70k a year

My income. Working on my career path to airline pilot. At this point I will be a flight instructor building hours and making about 30k a year. But after a couple years that will go up once I get a job you know how it goes.

Bills
Housing $1,500 or less
College Loan Payments $600
Other debts $400
Available down-payment is flexible as this is a couple years from now. I could probably do at least 5k to as much as 15-20k if I really needed to.

Credit Score for me 700-750
Credit Score for my wife ~750
Don't mind doing a loan for 15-20 years

I will be using the plane starting out to do sightseeing tours on the side to make extra money and build hours.
I also want to use the plane to take trips accross the us and would like to take a trip to South America (2400 miles)
The plane will be used pretty often to make trips from Florida (where I will be living) to Connecticut

Plane needs to have 4 seats at least.

Was thinking Piper Cherokee 180 but I don't know if it will be enough for what I want to do, I want something with autopilot and something I can trust for those long trips. I like the diamond da-40 but it's super expensive

The reason all this is speculative is because I am currently in the air force (not a pilot) and will be getting out in May of 2021.

I would consider a multi owner aircraft but I might need to use it too much for that to be realistic.

Thanks!

Well you have some real goals there! I would by a Cirrus if your aspirations were mine

 

[Johnbo]

I want to buy a plane in a couple years (around January 2022). My planned financial situation will be as follows

Wife income 70k a year

My income. Working on my career path to airline pilot. At this point I will be a flight instructor building hours and making about 30k a year. But after a couple years that will go up once I get a job you know how it goes.

Bills
Housing $1,500 or less
College Loan Payments $600
Other debts $400
Available down-payment is flexible as this is a couple years from now. I could probably do at least 5k to as much as 15-20k if I really needed to.

Credit Score for me 700-750
Credit Score for my wife ~750
Don't mind doing a loan for 15-20 years

I will be using the plane starting out to do sightseeing tours on the side to make extra money and build hours.
I also want to use the plane to take trips accross the us and would like to take a trip to South America (2400 miles)
The plane will be used pretty often to make trips from Florida (where I will be living) to Connecticut

Plane needs to have 4 seats at least.

Was thinking Piper Cherokee 180 but I don't know if it will be enough for what I want to do, I want something with autopilot and something I can trust for those long trips. I like the diamond da-40 but it's super expensive

The reason all this is speculative is because I am currently in the air force (not a pilot) and will be getting out in May of 2021.

I would consider a multi owner aircraft but I might need to use it too much for that to be realistic.

Thanks!

I would adjust the mission or add a partner or two. I am a bit risk averse when it comes to money but with the figures you laid out I wouldn’t be looking for a “typical” certified 4-place airplane. Don’t make the mistake of mixing up “money invested vs money spent” in aviation.

Look at Sonex or Kitfox or if you want certified a Citabria. The slower you fly the more hours you will build.

Own and properly maintain any plane for a couple hundred hours (or less) and you will see how much more it costs than the planning spreadsheet says.

 

[deyoung]

it is not always cheaper to rent, [...] . There is a break even point, which I have found is usually around 5-7 hours per month, depend on the the exact plane, etc

I've heard it closer to 100 hours a year, which is a bit more, but yes.

The other big thing is being ready to pay bills.

Yep, and not at times of your own planning, if you still need to fly regularly. I just finished having the annual done on my airplane, and there were only a couple of minor squawks. Yay, I thought, it'll be a cheap one this year.

I go out to do my post-maintenance checkout flight, and the nose strut is completely flat. Wasn't like that when they finished the annual, but is now. Turns out not to be the valve, so new O-rings.

"Hi, yeah we went to move your plane to fix the nose strut, and the starter won't engage the ring gear. Looks like the cost for a repair is going to be pretty close to a new starter anyway... what do you want to do?"

"Hi... the starter is done, but it looks like the battery won't hold a charge for more than a day or so... here are a couple of options, what do you want to do?" (This last one doesn't really bother me, since it was still the same battery that we in the plane when I bought it some years ago and likely past its reasonable life anyway.)

Owning is definitely more expensive than renting for me, probably by a fair bit. What that buys me is leaving my stuff in the plane if I want, making all my own equipment and maintenance decisions, being able to take the plane out whenever I want with no notice and keep it on a cross country as long as I feel like, and so on. But there is certainly a cost to all that.

 

[bflynn]

Depends on your renting scenario and your buying scenario I guess. But 7 hours is 96/year, so it's not that far off. I've been as low as 4 hours for break even without a loan and as high as 10/month for a really nice airplane. But I don't have the time to fly that much, so it doesn't make sense.

I validate my cost estimates through club rates, which aren't much higher than I come up with. Maybe I'm a slight bit low on maintenance, but not overly so and I have other reserves I can use if needed.

 

[denverpilot]

I validate my cost estimates through club rates, which aren't much higher than I come up with. Maybe I'm a slight bit low on maintenance, but not overly so and I have other reserves I can use if needed.

We were higher than the cheapest rental Skylane on the field per hour, before we did avionics upgrades.

Which probably tells ya something about the cheapest Skylane for rent at my home airport.

 

[Rgbeard]

Don't buy a plane. You don't make enough money.

This. Period.

 

[Crashnburn]

Depends on your renting scenario and your buying scenario I guess. But 7 hours is 96/year, so it's not that far off. I've been as low as 4 hours for break even without a loan and as high as 10/month for a really nice airplane. But I don't have the time to fly that much, so it doesn't make sense.

I validate my cost estimates through club rates, which aren't much higher than I come up with. Maybe I'm a slight bit low on maintenance, but not overly so and I have other reserves I can use if needed.

Actually, 84, but who's counting.

 

[old_biker]

Nothing illegal about that at all for sightseeing.

You missed a reg about how to go about it.
(Hint: You need something from a local FSDO. And of course, the exact reg number was posted by Bob, above...)

Sightseeing is a paperwork pain in the ass. Let alone the necessary insurance. Many clubs and such cheat, and pretend the flight is the person’s “first instructional flight” and they “didn’t come back after the first lesson”.

They’ll get away with it until there’s an accident and then the walks like a duck and quacks like a duck will destroy the CFI’s career and bankrupt the club. But it was worth it for .6 of an hour more flight time, right? LOL.

there was a thought that popped into my head, & I cant imagine it being illegal or against the rules, unless there is a regulation for selling video, do flights on what you think are sight seeing rides, BUT SOLO! & use video, & then sell the videos, or digital downloads for people to watch in comfort of their own home? not saying it will sell, but your flying solo, & seems everyone makes videos to upload on youtube, but then give it away free, but make money with subscribers & patroen accounts? but someway in this area it should be a real legal way, since no passengers are carried.

 

[George Mohr]

Consider a partnership. Adding one or two people to the mix change the financials dramatically, and insulates you against the biggest downside of ownership: unscheduled Mx events. Plus its just fun to share the plane with like minded enthusiasts.

 

[denverpilot]

there was a thought that popped into my head, & I cant imagine it being illegal or against the rules, unless there is a regulation for selling video, do flights on what you think are sight seeing rides, BUT SOLO! & use video, & then sell the videos, or digital downloads for people to watch in comfort of their own home? not saying it will sell, but your flying solo, & seems everyone makes videos to upload on youtube, but then give it away free, but make money with subscribers & patroen accounts? but someway in this area it should be a real legal way, since no passengers are carried.

Shooting a video and selling it certainly is something someone could do. Probably a rough business when there’s piles of free videos of various places on YouTube, but if you had an interesting enough locale to shoot and exceptional videography.

Honestly I can’t see paying for such a thing. Just me.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

there was a thought that popped into my head, & I cant imagine it being illegal or against the rules, unless there is a regulation for selling video, do flights on what you think are sight seeing rides, BUT SOLO! & use video, & then sell the videos, or digital downloads for people to watch in comfort of their own home? not saying it will sell, but your flying solo, & seems everyone makes videos to upload on youtube, but then give it away free, but make money with subscribers & patroen accounts? but someway in this area it should be a real legal way, since no passengers are carried.

That wouldn't be sight seeing, that would be aerial photography. A private pilot can use a plane for aerial photography, but I doubt you'd ever see much revenue from video of 'sight seeing' flights unless all your flights were over nude beaches and shot with high end telephoto lenses.

 

[old_biker]

That would be sight seeing, that would be aerial photography. A private pilot can use a plane for aerial photography, but I doubt you'd ever see much revenue from video of 'sight seeing' flights unless all your flights were over nude beaches and shot with high end telephoto lenses.

I know, its a difficult topic, for fun, here is a topic I would pay a good penny for a video of, however that's me, and probably very few others.

I'm on wrong side of USA to consider, but when I was
In college 30 years ago I did a paper on glass houses, the poor people that had nothing would get bottles thrown out of local bars, and use mud and bottles to make glass homes, so a video documentary of glass homes, and locations, most are abandoned ghost towns, but that's first thing to pop in my head, especially since I did a paper on them. But selling, who knows.....

 

[Juliet Hotel]

I know, its a difficult topic, for fun, here is a topic I would pay a good penny for a video of, however that's me, and probably very few others.

I'm on wrong side of USA to consider, but when I was
In college 30 years ago I did a paper on glass houses, the poor people that had nothing would get bottles thrown out of local bars, and use mud and bottles to make glass homes, so a video documentary of glass homes, and locations, most are abandoned ghost towns, but that's first thing to pop in my head, especially since I did a paper on them. But selling, who knows.....

I could see wanting video of that sort of thing if it were on the ground in and around the structures. Why would you want aerial video of them? What is interesting about them when viewed from an airplane? Are they arranged in such a way that they spell out 'will work for food' when viewed from the air?

 

[old_biker]

I could see wanting video of that sort of thing if it were on the ground in and around the structures. Why would you want aerial video of them? What is interesting about them when viewed from an airplane? Are they arranged in such a way that they spell out 'will work for food' when viewed from the air?

Lol. Some would not be reachable except ATV or hiking, while other could be reached by vehicle. I'm not young enough to consider any serious hike. Lol. It would take a lot of time to explore, I just threw it out, but I'm on East coast, but I doubt a huge amount of people would want, but doing something special interest, that pilot would love and enjoy, then offer it for sale.

 

[RudyP]

How much plane can I afford?

 

[OneCharlieTango]

Your plan is very romantic, but disappointed romantics can become cynics. Rent an airplane while you gain expertise. Then someone else will rent your expertise. The key to making this work is minimizing risk.

 

[EdFred]

Supposed to be a red handle, not a red prop.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

so....what is your definition of "a-ford".....not a chevy?

 

[Skymac]

Some crud but simple math....

Before I sold my 77’ C172, I totaled the entire cost of the plane over 4 years. Annuals, all MX, Hangar, Insurance, etc, I also took all the flight time and multiples that by 8.5 to get fuel used. I also figured in purchase price vs sale price

I then totaled up the same flight hours paying for the rental. The exact figure I’m not recalling but I SAVED about 5-6k in total expenses by owning. It is a gamble because 2 bad annuals could have ate into that.

Total time flown was around 175 hours.

 

[TommyG]

You have to count your CFI salary as non existent. You can plan on that money. But throw in bad wx, airplanes being down, student no shows, a slow down in possible students.

And as a married man, don’t put the financial burden of owning an airplane on your wife. It usually doesn’t go well.