Aviation’s safety culture

jspilot

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I’ve proudly had my PPL for the past 6 years but a recent experience made me really appreciate how serious aviators take safety compared to other similar recreation hobbies.

I have a small boat that I use for fishing and am a member of a similar forum as this one for boaters. A few weeks back the northeast got rocked by a really intense line of thunderstorms. I went to that website and found a thread about people bragging about and sharing how they “made it through the storm while out on the boat” filled with pictures many boaters had taken while out on their boats in the storm. The safety conscious pilot in me felt the need to step in and point out that there is nothing brave or worth bragging about when someone puts himself into a dangerous and highly predictable situation. Boy was I met with resistance, anger and it got to the point where boaters defended themselves by saying “ well the weather channel said only a 10% chance of storms that afternoon and storms close in on people all the time.” One guy even said, “well my friends really wanted to go out on the boat so I just did it even though I knew it was better not to( when I pointed out that in aviation we call that “ getthereitis” because you allow other factors to influence your best decisions, the guy got even more irate.)

Multiple things struck me about this experience. First, how defensive and aggrevated the boaters who posted became. I expected them to defend themselves but what stunned me were how few people posted anything about poor judgement. Contrast that to when we read about a pilot flying into IMC or taking off in bad weather. No one on here says “ well you know weather changes a lot.” In fact the opposite is the response most often read and most pilots rush to learn from and probably pass negative judgement about the fellow pilots poor decision making. Second, I was amazed by the lack of basic weather knowledge some people have. I think most of the boaters simply check the weather channel and consider that adequate. Compare that to the deliberate and careful weather briefings we are all taught to get before any flight. Lastly, I was struck by how cavilierly almost all of the boaters took their responsibility to protect themselves, their passengers and their boats by responsibly making safe decisions. When I pointed out that aviators don’t get to screw up so badly and then post pictures about how they made it through the storm— I became even more proud to be a pilot because we really do need to be good when it comes to safety.

Now I get it that boating is, at least on many levels, not even close to as risky inherently as flying, and I know boaters receive no training at all( at least pleasure boaters) but I was struck by how healthy aviation’s safety culture really is. Us pilots are not always perfect and there are plenty examples of how pilots failed to excerise a safety first mindset but we are in good shape— way better shape than many other similar hobbies— and for that I think we all should be proud.
 
I imagine a lot of the difference is that flying is much less forgiving than boating. Pilots have to deal with that 3rd dimension where gravity steps in. Boaters don't come screaming down out of the sky smashing into the water. People die every year while boating, but probably much less per thousand hours of activity than people flying. I don't know that for sure, but would imagine it to be true.
 
I imagine a lot of the difference is that flying is much less forgiving than boating. Pilots have to deal with that 3rd dimension where gravity steps in. Boaters don't come screaming down out of the sky smashing into the water. People die every year while boating, but probably much less per thousand hours of activity than people flying. I don't know that for sure, but would imagine it to be true.
I’d bet it’s not.
 
Boaters, in my experience, also use alcohol to fuel their judgement of risk.

I agree for the average 30' or less type lake crawler, but I think the ocean goers are usually a bit more sober in their judgement.
 
This guy made some foolish decisions and a lot of people paid for them.
 
in 2017 there were 330 aviation related fatalities in 21 million hours flown, this is GA, not 135. In the same year there were 658 boating fatalities. I can’t find a good resource to extrapolate boating hours per year, but one figure I saw said 19 million people went boating that year. Draw your own conclusions.
 
in 2017 there were 330 aviation related fatalities in 21 million hours flown, this is GA, not 135. In the same year there were 658 boating fatalities. I can’t find a good resource to extrapolate boating hours per year, but one figure I saw said 19 million people went boating that year. Draw your own conclusions.
I’m surprised the boating fatality number is that low.
 
I agree for the average 30' or less type lake crawler, but I think the ocean goers are usually a bit more sober in their judgement.

There are plenty of drunks skippering 30'+ boats. How do you think they got the nickname "beer can races" when going around the markers.

We only competed against a handful of <30' boats. We were either on a 34' or 44'. People just don't race small boats in phrf series as much as they used to, I think. A short boat could cross the line last and win on corrected time, but when it's blowing hard, the bigger boats don't take near the beating from wind and waves.
 
Simply my opinion, so try not to get your panties too wadded.

First, I don't understand why the attempt to link "Aviation Safety Culture" to boating. Safety is safety. You can be intelligent with safety, and you can be stupid with it. It normally exists as a personal, or a generally accepted set of behaviors and judgement calls.

Depending on the maturity level of the folks on the boat site, I'm frankly surprised you didn't have someone tell you that you were not their Mother, and to just shut up. They might have, but maybe in not so many words? If you were trying to tell me what to do, or how stupid I was, I probably would have told you some wild tales about weathering that storm, just to incite you.

As in aviation, there's a lot of type A's out there in the boating community, and probably half of what you read was b.s.. Anyhow....

It sounds like you poked your nose under other peoples tents, and you offended them. It's kinda like telling someone to use common sense. You do realize there is no such thing as common sense? Yours is not mine. Our common senses have nothing in common.

I've flown aircraft for more than thirty years, and have been know to run some scud, and to have taken some chances with ugly weather. Most of us have. But, I didn't put others in jeopardy when I made those judgement calls.

By the way, something else I suspect you might not understand........ My personality, like so many others, dictates that if you tell me not to do something, it's much more likely that I will.`
Your opinions, limits, safety definitions, whatever else, are not mine. We may agree on some, and disagree on others. Simply put.... Don't tell others what to do, and don't try to force your values and judgments on others. You'll get along better.
 
I imagine a lot of the difference is that flying is much less forgiving than boating.

I'm not really sure that's true.

But -- that's just a gut feeling; I'm not a boater, and I haven't researched a bunch of statistics so I don't really know.

Still, the ocean seems pretty darn unforgiving to me.
 
The worse part about boating is there is absolutely no licensing, training, or testing for most boat owners. Add to it the need to show off and indulgence in adult beverages, many are just down right scary and dangerous. Most don't understand even the basic concepts of seamanship, right of way, or regulations. A spare $5,000 will get you a used running power boat that will haul you and 8 of your friends at speeds up to 40 mph pretty easily. Jet skis can be even worse!

I avoid our area lakes like the plague for most of the summer due to dangerous boaters, preferring off peak times for my boating.
 
One thing about the web, never, ever criticize anyone on the web no matter how big an obvious AH they are, because some other AH will step up and defend them and call you a bigger AH.

Most people call me AH, my life has become much more simpler when it stopped giving 2 poop about it
 
in 2017 there were 330 aviation related fatalities in 21 million hours flown, this is GA, not 135. In the same year there were 658 boating fatalities. I can’t find a good resource to extrapolate boating hours per year, but one figure I saw said 19 million people went boating that year. Draw your own conclusions.

Apples and oranges. Every single boater I know spends much more than an hour boating each year. Even those who go on a boat once are likely to have more than an hour I would bet.

I have been in more than a few storms on the fishing boat and a couple on the sailboats. The boat IMO is far more survivable in big weather.
 
Not for nothing that storm came through fast and brutal. I have been out on boats and had storms, not quite the bad come through. I also know some people that were up flying that day when the storms came though. Differ between plane and boats, we have updates on wx, and can actually see the storms location while airborne. The plane can also outrun, maneuver around and avoid a storm. Boaters don’t really have the on the spot wx. They can see the cells but will usually ride a storm out, they don’t have the speed to try and attempt that. Living on Long Island you should know plenty of boaters.
 
Just want to clarify here- I’m glad we all recognize that the baiting culture has issues( tremendous issues honestly in a lot of ways) but I really shared not to make a comparison, quite frankly there is no comparison— but more to recognize how strong the safety culture is in GA. I’m always struck by the amount of focus GA gives to making safe and responsible choices. It clearly works for most of us.
 
I’d also note that being on a boat in a storm isn’t necessarily hazardous. Sailors have techniques and procedures for dealing with it and if done correctly in a normal sort of storm, it’s not at all dangerous. The ability to ride out a storm is a basic boating skill.
 
Now if those same folks posted pictures of riding out a Cat 3 hurricane then I’d be really impressed.
 
Just want to clarify here- I’m glad we all recognize that the baiting culture has issues( tremendous issues honestly in a lot of ways) but I really shared not to make a comparison, quite frankly there is no comparison— but more to recognize how strong the safety culture is in GA. I’m always struck by the amount of focus GA gives to making safe and responsible choices. It clearly works for most of us.

Ah, so you *WERE* trolling. At least fishing a little, and you got the wrong bites?
 
Many times boaters that are ignorant of the power contained in thunderstorms find out the hard way.

Several years ago I was at a lakeside park near Plano with the boat beached, it was a 27' bowrider. The weather was mostly sunny, but I noticed some cumulus clouds building rapidly to the NW of our location.

After watching it for 15 minutes, I told my wife and our friends to pack it up now. By the time we broke down and loaded the easy-up, chairs, and coolers, the tops of the clouds were over 30,000' and exploding in size. Lightning was visible, and a time count on the thunder pegged the distance as less than two miles.

I drove to the boat ramp, my wife backed the trailer in, and in a couple of minutes we were in the parking lot securing everything. At that moment the skies exploded, and rain came down with an incredible ferocity. Wind gusts were upwards of 40-50 MPH. When I drove out of the park, I could barely see the road.

The last view I had of the lake revealed at least a dozen boats still on the water or beached at the park. Later that night, TV news said eight boats on the lake had sunk, and three people drowned.

In addition to the weather knowledge I had gained in pilot training, I think my experiences as a hang glider pilot that schooled me in micrometeorology were useful that day. I knew what to look for, and watching the development of the storm in such a short period told me it was time to GTF out of there.

The average boater has no idea of the power a boiling Cb structure. They suck up tons of moisture per second during formation.
 
Many times boaters that are ignorant of the power contained in thunderstorms find out the hard way.

Several years ago I was at a lakeside park near Plano with the boat beached, it was a 27' bowrider. The weather was mostly sunny, but I noticed some cumulus clouds building rapidly to the NW of our location.

After watching it for 15 minutes, I told my wife and our friends to pack it up now. By the time we broke down and loaded the easy-up, chairs, and coolers, the tops of the clouds were over 30,000' and exploding in size. Lightning was visible, and a time count on the thunder pegged the distance as less than two miles.

I drove to the boat ramp, my wife backed the trailer in, and in a couple of minutes we were in the parking lot securing everything. At that moment the skies exploded, and rain came down with an incredible ferocity. Wind gusts were upwards of 40-50 MPH. When I drove out of the park, I could barely see the road.

The last view I had of the lake revealed at least a dozen boats still on the water or beached at the park. Later that night, TV news said eight boats on the lake had sunk, and three people drowned.

In addition to the weather knowledge I had gained in pilot training, I think my experiences as a hang glider pilot that schooled me in micrometeorology were useful that day. I knew what to look for, and watching the development of the storm in such a short period told me it was time to GTF out of there.

The average boater has no idea of the power a boiling Cb structure. They suck up tons of moisture per second during formation.

This is a really good point. I pointed the fact that even though one may not always have access to radar it is pretty obvious to see thunderstorms develop if you know what to look for. All I got was more arguing and people saying that the radar would not update( most had no idea that unless you have real time weather capabilities the average radar app is about 5 minutes behind actual conditions.) These examples are kind of my point— even the simplest to attain license for aviation- the PPL requires a substantial amount of knowledge and I’m not sure I really recognized how much more knowledgeable the average pilot is in certain areas than most others.

I agree with those saying that the complete lack of training almost all boaters have is absurd. I have absolutely no idea why no one has thought of requiring basic training before obtaining and using a boat but that’s above my pay grade! I’m just very greatful that I was given the training required to make safe judgements when it comes to weather!
 
The bar for being a pilot is higher. Not all of the 80% dropout rate for new private pilots is due to financial reasons. Many new students walking through the door the first time are under the impression flying is like boating, thinking it's a big sky and you can do whatever you want...

See also: the guy that wanted to do a 1500-mile flight as his first solo XC because he rode 1500 miles on his motorcycle.
 
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