Thinking About a Boat

Jim_CAK said:
We have 33+ years of enjoyment from our boat. View attachment 75865
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Right there with ya. 1976 Mark Twain 200VBR

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Fiveslide said:
I'm with you all on the Bayliners, with the exception of that one I posted. I've been on that model and a well cared for example would be a good boat. The engines and outdrives are the same thing that comes in every other manufacturers boats. I've seen plenty of soggy, soft Bayliners that don't deserve a second glance.

I lived on a boat for three years and delivered big boats for a living, I know how to not buy junk. ;)
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The powerplants aren’t the problem. Those are pretty much standard across most every boat. It’s the plastic hull and deck fittings, single clamped hoses, thinner upholstery, cored hulls or poorly encapsulated stringers. I have no problem with some of the Bayliners, but I’m more partial to their motor yacht series which are more of a traditional yacht than the Avanti lineup. Since Bayliners were an entry level boat brand, they often didn’t have the same amenities that came standard on the more expensive brands. So finding the needle in a haystack that is going to have twin engines and a genset is harder to do searching Bayliners than it is with a SeaRay. The standard engine options are usually better with the SeaRay/Formula as well versus a Bayliner.
 
1989 MasterCraft TriStar 190

Mine\/
 

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We did some more browsing last night and expanded the search radius (looking on boat trader) mainly to look at more layouts and add what there was. Few thoughts:

- it seems that the mid to late 90s were when they really got the layouts figured out in a way that’s ideal to us
-29-31 ft seems to be where they get the layouts right for the cabin and the deck, which makes sense since then you have enough length for both
- they also don’t have many in that are twins with AC and generator

There’s an early 90s Sea Ray Sundancer 310 that’s local to me that I’m interested in looking at. 31’, twin 350s, AC, includes trailer. Doesn’t have a gen on board, but I’m curious from the boat gurus how hard it is to add that as I’m certain it was an option. The deck layout in those days was pretty weird but after looking at some others it also looks like I could make a couple minor changes and get it close to the newer ones.

Mostly it’s close by and hits most of the marks so it would be worth checking out I think.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Doesn’t have a gen on board, but I’m curious from the boat gurus how hard it is to add that as I’m certain it was an option
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Not too hard. Just apply money and time. Money to buy it and time to install it. How's your understanding of electrical wiring practices?
 
Fiveslide said:
Not too hard. Just apply money and time. Money to buy it and time to install it. How's your understanding of electrical wiring practices?
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I wired my whole garage last summer. I haven’t done any marine specific, but figure that’d be doable to learn.

Also, @Tom-D I would like a sail boat one day, but it doesn’t fit the mission for now.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I wired my whole garage last summer. I haven’t done any marine specific, but figure that’d be doable to learn.

Also, @Tom-D I would like a sail boat one day, but it doesn’t fit the mission for now.
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A little research and a good installation manual and you should be fine. What you want to avoid is stray current, it will eat your underwater metals and possibly sink your boat. Not as big a possibility in fresh water, I think. There is a guy in the PNW that really explains the process well, I see if I can find a link.
 
I think you will find that you will rarely run the genset and AC while on the water. If you are at anchor, it's annoying, if you are under way you don't really need it. We have an AC on the fireboat. It's an enclosed pilothouse aluminum hull and can get toasty while at the dock. But thats the only time the AC gets run, once the boat gets moving you just slide open the windows (heat otoh is essential for fall and winter operations).
 
weilke said:
I think you will find that you will rarely run the genset and AC while on the water. If you are at anchor, it's annoying, if you are under way you don't really need it. We have an AC on the fireboat. It's an enclosed pilothouse aluminum hull and can get toasty while at the dock. But thats the only time the AC gets run, once the boat gets moving you just slide open the windows (heat otoh is essential for fall and winter operations).
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Well, it depends on what you expect to do with the cabin while at anchor. 100-degrees in an enclosed space often with little airflow makes it pretty miserable. If they actually intend on using the cabin much, I’d imagine you’d want it cooled off. However, with decent Bimini tips/enclosures most people will prefer to be in the cockpit area where they are in the shade but get a nice breeze. The cabin is better for cat naps, letting a brief rain storm pass, or using the head (which as an owner has its drawbacks as well for pump out).
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
We did some more browsing last night and expanded the search radius (looking on boat trader) mainly to look at more layouts and add what there was. Few thoughts:

- it seems that the mid to late 90s were when they really got the layouts figured out in a way that’s ideal to us
-29-31 ft seems to be where they get the layouts right for the cabin and the deck, which makes sense since then you have enough length for both
- they also don’t have many in that are twins with AC and generator

There’s an early 90s Sea Ray Sundancer 310 that’s local to me that I’m interested in looking at. 31’, twin 350s, AC, includes trailer. Doesn’t have a gen on board, but I’m curious from the boat gurus how hard it is to add that as I’m certain it was an option. The deck layout in those days was pretty weird but after looking at some others it also looks like I could make a couple minor changes and get it close to the newer ones.

Mostly it’s close by and hits most of the marks so it would be worth checking out I think.
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Not a bad choice, and yes, for SeaRay in particular, I think 1993 is when they came out with a bit more modern styling and cockpit layouts. Cabin bulkheads became less intrusive as well.

As far as adding a genny, it can be done, but it’s often like buying an airplane where it’s better to find one with the panel/equipment the way you want it. The marine generators aren’t particularly cheap, and you’ll probably have to drill some holes for the water intake and exhaust. I’d also do some research on the breaker panel itself, because the panels may not be plug-n-play with a generator. The SR 310 was made for a number of years and they sold a bunch of them, so you might just wait until closer to September when people are offloading them.
 
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I think that for us the generator will get a lot of use and we will use the AC quite a bit. When we had our last boat the cabin was used quite a bit (we had infants and a toddler then so lots of naps) and moving or not it got hot in there. A few times we brought along the ice AC setup we had for the 310 and it did make quite a big difference. It was also a pain as those things are.

As we look to uses of the next boat I see fewer naps but my wife and I both like the idea of camping on the lake. A lot of nights here that means hot and humid evenings, so even if we aren’t running it during the day we’d run it for the overnights. So I view it as important. I don’t know how boat electrical systems work but ideally the alternators could also power things while the main engines are running.

I’m coming around to the idea that we’ll likely want something in the mid 90s or later to match the features we want. More thinking and researching required.
 
ABYC standards for boat electrical systems is one of the few standards you can find on the line and not have to be a member to get. Good thing to stick to, not required by insurance companies yet, but may as well wire it to some standard rather than nothing.
 
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Fiveslide said:
ABYC standards for boat electrical systems is one of the few standards you can find on the line and not have to be a member to get. Good thing to stick to, not required by insurance companies yet, but may as well wire it to some standard rather than nothing.
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Whenever doing wiring I do make an attempt to stick to appropriate code/standards as much as possible, so that’s good info to have.
 
Yeah just Google ABYC electrical standards and the PDF document should be the first hit. I have it downloaded on just about every device I have.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Well, it depends on what you expect to do with the cabin while at anchor. 100-degrees in an enclosed space often with little airflow makes it pretty miserable. If they actually intend on using the cabin much, I’d imagine you’d want it cooled off. However, with decent Bimini tips/enclosures most people will prefer to be in the cockpit area where they are in the shade but get a nice breeze. The cabin is better for cat naps, letting a brief rain storm pass, or using the head (which as an owner has its drawbacks as well for pump out).
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Yeah but they’ve got three little kids so an area to get the kid out of the heat/sun could really help


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MIFlyer said:
Yeah but they’ve got three little kids so an area to get the kid out of the heat/sun could really help


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I absolutely agree, and when we get a cruiser, it will have twin engines and a generator for sure. However, we’ve (father and I) been considering something in the 34-40’ range. Ideally I’d rather have something like a Regal 35SC but they’re still pretty pricey so I’ll wait until they have depreciated another 5 years. I’d love to do the Great Loop starting off in Tulsa and going all the way around the gulf/east coasts, then back across through the Great Lakes and back down the Mississippi. Mostly just a pipe dream at the moment though.

We have no intention of getting rid of the ski boat or jet ski though, so my requirements are more typical of a cruiser.
 
We went and checked out the local 1990 Sundancer 310. I didn’t think we would want it since it didn’t have a generator and was the older deck style that we didn’t think we’d want, but we wanted to see what that deck actually functioned like and how the cabin was set up.

Spoiler alert: we didn’t buy the boat. Holy crap was it stored wrong. Not even a tarp over it, just left out in the elements. The deck was all toast, dashboard terribly faded. And he left the batteries in (not on a charger) and the out drives angled up.

However the boat itself we really liked. The cabin was about perfect. We’d like less kitchen but that’s how thy all are. Master berth, smaller birth for 1-2 kids, and convert the dining table into a third bed for the remaining kids. Sleeping arrangements, perfect. Plus a nice head that’s private.

That era Sea Ray deck layout was kinda odd, but it was better in person than we thought. Take the dining table and put it on the deck if you want, good seating in back. We’d prefer a lounger across from the captains station like the newer ones have, but it’s livable.

So I think we’ve narrowed our search to 30-35’, with a Sundancer 310 as a good choice to look for. And we’ll probably also up the budget.
 
Oh, and like @SoonerAviator we were talking about doing the great loop on our drive home. A boat like this could do it. It could be a fun adventure one summer with the kids...
 
Some of those Sea Rays you have to pull a motor to get a generator in/out. Not the end of the world, but something to consider.

Transom rot is something to look for in this range of boats. Tap around the transom with the handle of a screwdriver, you want to hear a nice solid sound not a dead hollow thump. Do this around and below the transom housing for each drive. A bad problem will be easily noticed even with no experience doing this.

No matter how good a deal you find, nothing with OMC stringer mount drives, although they should not be on a boat later than 88 or 89. I believe they quit making them in 87 but some manufacturers had quite a few on hand so they found there way onto a few years after that.

Bravo drives of that age need to be looked at where the upper steering shaft goes thru the gimbal ring, play between the two is expensive.

James
 
lowtimer said:
Some of those Sea Rays you have to pull a motor to get a generator in/out. Not the end of the world, but something to consider.

Transom rot is something to look for in this range of boats. Tap around the transom with the handle of a screwdriver, you want to hear a nice solid sound not a dead hollow thump. Do this around and below the transom housing for each drive. A bad problem will be easily noticed even with no experience doing this.

No matter how good a deal you find, nothing with OMC stringer mount drives, although they should not be on a boat later than 88 or 89. I believe they quit making them in 87 but some manufacturers had quite a few on hand so they found there way onto a few years after that.

Bravo drives of that age need to be looked at where the upper steering shaft goes thru the gimbal ring, play between the two is expensive.

James
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All good points. It wouldn't surprise me if port-engine removal was necessary in most all of the cruisers in that size range. There's only so many ways to squeeze twin V8s and a 4-5KW generator into a box. The engine hatches usually give access to the first foot in front of the engines, but most manufacturers tend to stuff the generator further forward from the engines.
 
@lowtimer that makes sense on having to pull an engine to pull/install a generator. When I looked at the engines on the Sundancer yesterday, I was trying to figure out where a generator would sit and what would have to be done. I came to the conclusion that it would not be easy to fit. This boat had twin 4.3 V6s in it, but since that's just a 350 with 2 cylinders chopped off the end you still get an idea. Yeah, it'd be tight in there compared to my old boat, but still doable. I would definitely see doing a lot of "While I'm there..." maintenance if I ever pulled anything on the engines.

It definitely reinforced the point that I want something that already has a generator, heat, and AC on it. Just smarter all around.

I did go bang around this boat and the transom and hull themselves seemed fine. However the wood base of the seats was all rotted, in part no doubt because of the poor storage. At one point when I was moving the seats around to look at storage etc. a whole bunch of wood fell out of the bottom of one of the seats.

He was asking $12k for the boat and claimed that's what he owed the bank. My opinion is he's asking about 2x too much, and that's including the trailer.

We're not hurting for things to do or spend money on (including some house projects we really want to do), and the reality is I think next summer will be a better time for the kids than this summer. And the summer after even moreso. Not to mention finishing up the Cobra.

So for now, I think the plan is going to be to continue to peruse CraigsList and Facebook to see if there are any local options that are more exactly what we want at a screaming deal. If so, maybe we snag something. If not, maybe this time next year we start the search more in earnest and probably look for a mid 90s or newer Sundancer 310 (or equivalent from another brand) when we're also willing to spend more money on one than we would now.
 
Those are neat ideas, Tom, but still not quite what I think we'd go with. Plus while I'm not afraid of a project we'd rather have something that has the fit and finish nice and done by someone else. Would rather buy something that needs an engine or an outdrive, etc.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Those are neat ideas, Tom, but still not quite what I think we'd go with. Plus while I'm not afraid of a project we'd rather have something that has the fit and finish nice and done by someone else. Would rather buy something that needs an engine or an outdrive, etc.
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You will sink cash into I, no matter who you have do what.

But these landing craft start at a half mil, (new) and I've never seen a used one for sale.
 
Tom-D said:
I believe the future in family boats is here:
http://www.svendsenmarine.com/5_30_sport_fishing_boat

These can be adapted to almost any configuration.

You'd be hard pressed to find a used one in your budget.
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Those are awesome boats. I don't think they'll catch on as big as you expect. Boaters south of the medicine line don't want raw aluminum, the workboat look. They want gleaming white gel and Ikea-looking interiors that you see on newer yachts.

If they wanted unfinished aluminum, there would be way more of these out there... One of my dream boats

https://images.app.goo.gl/J9X6KmntvttuM4iw6


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Tom-D said:
We see more and more of these in south east used as water taxi, and private cargo delivery,
http://www.svendsenmarine.com/2016-_42_landing_craft#Next
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Those aluminum boats with the full pilothouse are not particularly popular for recreational use anywhere it gets hot and muggy. You'll see them anywhere year around operation with a purpose (commercial, government) is needed.
This is the only boat I skipper around when they let me:

Fireboat-2012.JPG


That sucker is heavy (welded hull, fire-pump, plumbing), sits on a triple axle goose-neck and would require a CDL to pull around. Not all that fast, but equipped to go out in all kinds of weather.
 
weilke said:
Those aluminum boats with the full pilothouse are not particularly popular for recreational use anywhere it gets hot and muggy. You'll see them anywhere year around operation with a purpose (commercial, government) is needed.
This is the only boat I skipper around when they let me:

Fireboat-2012.JPG


That sucker is heavy (welded hull, fire-pump, plumbing), sits on a triple axle goose-neck and would require a CDL to pull around. Not all that fast, but equipped to go out in all kinds of weather.
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This type of boat is extensively use for the tourist fishing in Alaska.
very versatile boat that can be manufactured for any use.
 
I have never met any recreational type who would want one of those in Florida.

I have a Shamrock 246 with diesel power as well as a couple A-class catamarans.
 
Don't get me wrong, people have done some amazing things with trawler-style boats and aluminum/steel hulled vessels, but they are generally still very utilitarian. If I were dealing with water/weather conditions in the Pacific NW or NE/Northern Great Lakes, I'd consider something more utilitarian that would be up to the task. I doubt most people are going to give up fiberglass/gelcoat when it comes to consumer boating. There's no real convincing reason to do so when considering boats under 50', since fiberglass boats are cheaper to manufacture due to the ease of repeat-ability in the mold process and ability to have more complex mold forms with fiberglass layups. Having various curves and molded-in features is time-consuming and tedious work with rigid materials like steel/aluminum.
 
I can tell you that trawler/utilitarian is NOT what my wife wants. :)
 
SoonerAviator said:
Don't get me wrong, people have done some amazing things with trawler-style boats and aluminum/steel hulled vessels, but they are generally still very utilitarian. If I were dealing with water/weather conditions in the Pacific NW or NE/Northern Great Lakes, I'd consider something more utilitarian that would be up to the task. I doubt most people are going to give up fiberglass/gelcoat when it comes to consumer boating. There's no real convincing reason to do so when considering boats under 50', since fiberglass boats are cheaper to manufacture due to the ease of repeat-ability in the mold process and ability to have more complex mold forms with fiberglass layups. Having various curves and molded-in features is time-consuming and tedious work with rigid materials like steel/aluminum.
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Actually no, years gone by when the manufacturer had to pay welders by the hour, yes, but not today. Now we have robot welders that will do the work perfect every time at 100 times the speed. I get my aluminum plate from a boat builder in Bayview WA. they now build a 40 foot gill netter in a week.
No EPA or haz-mat worries either.
 
Tom-D said:
Actually no, years gone by when the manufacturer had to pay welders by the hour, yes, but not today. Now we have robot welders that will do the work perfect every time at 100 times the speed. I get my aluminum plate from a boat builder in Bayview WA. they now build a 40 foot gill netter in a week.
No EPA or haz-mat worries either.
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I'm well aware of using robotic welding techniques, we use them in my company. It's still more labor-intensive than a fiberglass mold by a large margin, and still has to have a lot of welds/forming/cut pieces to be made in order to fab up something a simple as a built-in livewell or anchor locker. The fiberglass layup just needs some mat/roving laid down, resin/chopped fiberglass sprayed in and then vacuum applied. Entire upper/lower hull mold for a 40' boat can be done in a day. You aren't doing that with aluminum and robot welders unless you have an assembly line similar to a major auto manufacturer. Fiberglass materials are also much cheaper per square foot than aluminum.
 
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