Skydive Drop Plane Down in Hawaii, Nine Dead

Van Johnston said:
Just citing recent precedent.

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/2019-mooney-down-dvt.119348/page-3#post-2744604
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Interesting.. I thought it had to be personally offensive, like "Tantalum sucks" or bring up taboo topics

For what it's worth I thought it was a healthy debate and spurred logically from a discussion about accidents, etc., other forums get a lot more YouTube-comments-esq but I suppose we have our mods to thank for our civility

Anyway, back on topic!
From what @PeterNSteinmetz linked this sounds like an e/o on departure leading to roll and stall

Also, question for those in the know, are the divers given any guidance on W&B on where to stand and not?
 
Tantalum said:
Interesting.. I thought it had to be personally offensive, like "Tantalum sucks" or bring up taboo topics

For what it's worth I thought it was a healthy debate and spurred logically from a discussion about accidents, etc., other forums get a lot more YouTube-comments-esq but I suppose we have our mods to thank for our civility
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There’s maintaining civility and there’s overreacting.

Tantalum said:
Also, question for those in the know, are the divers given any guidance on W&B on where to stand and not?
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Typically yes. At least that has been my experience.
 
Tantalum said:
Anyway, back on topic!
From what @PeterNSteinmetz linked this sounds like an e/o on departure leading to roll and stall

Also, question for those in the know, are the divers given any guidance on W&B on where to stand and not?
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I agree with the annoying guy.

It makes sense because of reports of the crash immediately after takeoff.
It makes sense because ski diver drivers typically depart with minimal fuel.
It makes sense because if it was fuel starvation, more likely than not, one engine would quit before the other, causing the wing to dip and nose to yaw, which would appear to the uninitiated as though possibly the pilot was attempting to return to the airport, as some witnesses reported.

Very unfortunate and prayers to all.

Yes the divers are given continual briefings about W&B and not moving, and sometimes are yelled at by their pilots and peers during departure, about the same issue.
 
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I watch our local jump plane take off a lot. It’s a C205. We have a 5000’ runway that the taxiway for 10 if you took off right there cuts a good 1500 feet of runway plus it puts up right before an uphill slope the middle of the runway.
When they are busy then get get them in the plane fast enough and up and out. Last year I see them taxiing and I swear that tail is going to bottom out. For what ever reason they didn’t back-taxi and just rolled up the runway to takeoff. Probably rotated with less then 500’ and it was a slow climb- as always. Too close for comfort. Next time the back taxied. They always seem to take advantage of ground effect for a bit to gain some more speed.
 
Tantalum said:
Also, question for those in the know, are the divers given any guidance on W&B on where to stand and not?
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They were where I used to work. I can't imagine that's not the case everywhere. But you also have to keep in mind that just because they're told doesn't mean they understand the instructions nor does it mean they'll comply.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
They were where I used to work. I can't imagine that's not the case everywhere. But you also have to keep in mind that just because they're told doesn't mean they understand the instructions nor does it mean they'll comply.
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And any pilot who insists on his instructions being followed (e.g. no more than 6 behind the 'red line') is the 'bad pilot' and 'party pooper' that the jumpers hate. The pilot who insists on topping off the fuel after 3 sorties rather than 4 is the 'bad pilot' for management because he only manages to squeeze 26 loads into a day instead of 30.

Skydiving is a bit of a wild-west. It is part 91 and the only time the FAA gets involved in oversight is if more than 10 passengers get killed in a single incident. The relatively lax oversight allows for a wide range of operators. Some are conscientous and professional, others are bottom scraping cheapskates who cut corners on pilot quals, maintenance, W&B . I dont know which category the current Dillingham operation falls into.
 
weilke said:
And any pilot who insists on his instructions being followed (e.g. no more than 6 behind the 'red line') is the 'bad pilot' and 'party pooper' that the jumpers hate. The pilot who insists on topping off the fuel after 3 sorties rather than 4 is the 'bad pilot' for management because he only manages to squeeze 26 loads into a day instead of 30.

Skydiving is a bit of a wild-west. It is part 91 and the only time the FAA gets involved in oversight is if more than 10 passengers get killed in a single incident. The relatively lax oversight allows for a wide range of operators. Some are conscientous and professional, others are bottom scraping cheapskates who cut corners on pilot quals, maintenance, W&B . I dont know which category the current Dillingham operation falls into.
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That about wraps it up.
 
weilke said:
And any pilot who insists on his instructions being followed (e.g. no more than 6 behind the 'red line') is the 'bad pilot' and 'party pooper' that the jumpers hate. The pilot who insists on topping off the fuel after 3 sorties rather than 4 is the 'bad pilot' for management because he only manages to squeeze 26 loads into a day instead of 30.

Skydiving is a bit of a wild-west. It is part 91 and the only time the FAA gets involved in oversight is if more than 10 passengers get killed in a single incident. The relatively lax oversight allows for a wide range of operators. Some are conscientous and professional, others are bottom scraping cheapskates who cut corners on pilot quals, maintenance, W&B . I dont know which category the current Dillingham operation falls into.
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Fuel after 3 or 4 sorties? The place I worked with in OK was fuel every jump - they only wanted minimum fuel to get to the top. I asked them about the fuel reserve they were required to have and they said the airport was under them so it was ok. I asked them what they would do if the runway was closed due to an accident and they didn't have an answer.
 
overdrive148 said:
Fuel after 3 or 4 sorties? The place I worked with in OK was fuel every jump - they only wanted minimum fuel to get to the top. I asked them about the fuel reserve they were required to have and they said the airport was under them so it was ok. I asked them what they would do if the runway was closed due to an accident and they didn't have an answer.
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182 or 206 operation ?

Most of the turbines I have jumped out of refueled every 3rd or 4th sortie. No doubt, they taxied into the fuel pit on fumes more often than not.
 
I must confess that the discussion here makes me wonder about the wisdom of going up for a practice jump, just to have some experience using a parachute. I had been thinking of that.
 
I was at a small uncontrolled ocean front airport last summer (not Oceanside) that had a skydive operation there... I remember seeing a 206 by a hanger.. a skydive operations 206... the thing looked *seriously* beat up.. the panel was a miserable joke and this plane was rode hard and put away wet. I thought for sure it was just kept along for spares

Nope.. a couple hours later they towed it to the fuel island, tanked it up, and the thing put in a solid day's work hauling jumpers up. I remember thinking that if I was the pilot I'd want to be wearing a chute too!

I get costs are tight for any GA business... but is there a reason these operations are so haphazard, reading above it sounds like they're walking on thin ice safety and reg wise. Isn't the average cost around $300..? Even 6 novice jumpers (IE, they will be tandem) that is $900 (300X3) for what, a 15 minute flight? The margins can't be THAT thin.. or is this like my SpotMe thing where basically there is no need to keep these planes any safer than they already are.. heck, the people on board have parachutes anyway and you're circling above an airport!

Cool site by the way, I was today's year's old when I learned a ton of cool things up "diver drivers" https://diverdriver.com/cessna-206/
 
Jump tickets are usually $20-30 in the US for a solo jumper. A tandem will be $150-300.
 
Tantalum said:
I remember thinking that if I was the pilot I'd want to be wearing a chute too!
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Wearing a rig is required for the pilot in many jump planes, but not for the reason you think. Depends on the position of the horizontal stab in relation to the jump door. Its rare but you can have the chute deploy as soon as the wind hits it when the jumper gets out on the step. If that happens, it can wrap around the horizontal stab and pull it off the plane when the weight of the jumper pulls on it. Once the tail is gone, its time to get out.

I get costs are tight for any GA business... but is there a reason these operations are so haphazard, reading above it sounds like they're walking on thin ice safety and reg wise. Isn't the average cost around $300..? Even 6 novice jumpers (IE, they will be tandem) that is $900 (300X3) for what, a 15 minute flight?
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Well in something like a 182 or 206, its closer to 30 minute flight by the time you get back down. And remember too, each of those tandems needs an instructor who needs to get paid and each of those tandems needs to sit through a ground school which requires staff that need to get paid. And if the tandem is getting video (lots do), you need to put a chaser in the plane who needs to get paid and also takes up a spot in the plane that could be filled by a paying customer. It all adds up quick.

The low load capacity and slow turn time (182's and 206's climb like dogs compared to turbine jump platforms) make it very difficult for smaller jump operations to get the volume needed to grow. Staying afloat is about all most of them will ever manage to do.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Once the tail is gone, its time to get out.
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I'd certainly agree! I actually always wondered about that, why the people who jump out don't immediately get guillotined by the horizontal stab

Juliet Hotel said:
The low load capacity and slow turn time (182's and 206's climb like dogs compared to turbine jump platforms) make it very difficult for smaller jump operations to get the volume needed to grow. Staying afloat is about all most of them will ever manage to do.
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Still crazy how fast the money goes. Would also assume that if you want to get a video of yourself jumping then would be an additional charge for that.. either way.. crazy
 
CarlH said:
Jump tickets are usually $20-30 in the US for a solo jumper. A tandem will be $150-300.
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Why such a big difference? $30 sounds cheap while $300 is crazy. Is there really a 10 factor cost difference? Are most jumpers novice, or solo?


Kenny Phillips said:
Actually, it's because the word 'tragic' is an opinion. True news outlets won't use opinion words without quotes.
Or, they don't believe it was tragic.
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I get the opinion thing, but at some point things go from opinion to obvious. This truly was tragic. Now if the guy had said unusual, then I would understand putting it in quotes

Planes go fast
Planes go "fast"

And, can you imagine if news outlets really did put all their opinion words in quotes?!
 
Tantalum said:
I was at a small uncontrolled ocean front airport last summer (not Oceanside) that had a skydive operation there... I remember seeing a 206 by a hanger.. a skydive operations 206... the thing looked *seriously* beat up.. the panel was a miserable joke and this plane was rode hard and put away wet. I thought for sure it was just kept along for spares . . .
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What kind of panel does a jump plane need? ATOMATOFLAMES/One working radio should get you all you need to climb for 20 minutes, drop meat bombs, and circle back down. No need for fancy IFR/GPS and glass panels.
 
Tantalum said:
Why such a big difference? $30 sounds cheap while $300 is crazy. Is there really a 10 factor cost difference? Are most jumpers novice, or solo?
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Because if you are certified jumper than all you are paying for is a trip up to 13000 ft. Tandem jump: "renting" packed chute, paying for instruction, paying for the tandem guy, probably more insurance involved, paying for space your instructor takes up in the plane, and probably some other things i can't think about. Costs more if you want to do a solo jump(without certification)
 
When I had an idea of getting certification(I ended up doing 4 jumps) in the late 90s, it was $16 ride up. Tandem jump was under 200 and solo(for the first one you spending all day in class and then jumping with 2 other people the first few jumps) was i think around 300 or more
 
genna said:
"renting" packed chute, paying for instruction, paying for the tandem guy, probably more insurance involved, paying for space your instructor takes up in the plane, and probably some other things i can't think about
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Ah okay, so they package all those other costs together too
 
The PK Airpark that @eman1200 mentioned a while back has some really nice aircraft. Back when Billy Thacker was still alive and I was still living in Raeford, NC, I know they had their own A&P on staff just to maintain their planes. https://skydiveparacletexp.com/dropzone/aircraft/

Their "experienced skydiver" prices are $27 per person for a drop at 13,500' and $20 for a "hop and pop." :)

But yeah, I've seen some really seedy operations, too. My home boys in Raeford obviously know how to do it right. Plus, as I mentioned in Eman's original thread, that has been their business for decades and they're very good at it.

Eman's original PIREP on 5W4 is in this thread: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/new-to-me-hundid-dollah-burger-place.115921/

Edit and PS: the Shorts Skyvan should be included in that thread on Ugly Planes. :)
 
Stephen Poole said:
Edit and PS: the Shorts Skyvan should be included in that thread on Ugly Planes.
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There's a certain utilitarian beauty to it. One of those planes that DOES NOT pass the "looks about right" rule and the fact that it takes to flight is a miracle of physics

To keep this on topic though, here is a purpose built skydive turboprop, they use out of Oceanside.. it looks like a (sloppily) home made version of a PC-12upload_2019-6-24_17-4-6.png
 
Tantalum said:
I'd certainly agree! I actually always wondered about that, why the people who jump out don't immediately get guillotined by the horizontal stab
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Because the skydiver is traveling the same speed as the airplane. Inertia dictates that the skydiver will continue traveling the same speed as the airplane long enough to clear the tail before the wind resistance slows him down.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Because the skydiver is traveling the same speed as the airplane. Inertia dictates that the skydiver will continue traveling the same speed as the airplane long enough to clear the tail before the wind resistance slows him down.
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I would have assumed hitting at least 100 knots of oncoming air would dramatically and near immediately change your velocity relative to the airplane but I guess not otherwise people would be getting guillotined all the time
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Because the skydiver is traveling the same speed as the airplane. Inertia dictates that the skydiver will continue traveling the same speed as the airplane long enough to clear the tail before the wind resistance slows him down.
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Unless that skydiver is H.W. Bush! Hit his head on the horiz. stab when bailing out of his Grumman. Wasn't exactly a recreational jump, or a proper skydiving plane, though.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
I must confess that the discussion here makes me wonder about the wisdom of going up for a practice jump, just to have some experience using a parachute. I had been thinking of that.
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Tandem operations are regulated between the manufacturer (Uninsured Parachute Technologies), the USPA and the FAA (14 CFR 105.45). They have experience, licensing and currency requirements. Doesn't mean there are no yahoos in the business, but for the most part thats the more controlled part of the entire industry.

You want to stick with a dropzone that is a USPA group member and operates based on USPAs 'basic safety rules' (BSRs). You are a pilot, look at the plane they use. If it looks like a piece of garbage with an ipad velcroed to the panel, it probably is. There is something to be said for going with a bigger operation with aircraft that require insurance as that governs who will pilot the plane for the way up.
 
Thanks. Sounds like insured operation and possibly a bigger one are a good idea. I had been thinking to do the accelerated training for a solo jump. Seems like it would be a better simulation of what will happen if I need to jump out of a glider or aerobatic plane someday.
 
Tantalum said:
To keep this on topic though, here is a purpose built skydive turboprop, they use out of Oceanside.. it looks like a (sloppily) home made version of a PC-12
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It's a PAC 750, designed and built in New Zealand, and it's probably considerably more economical for a small jump op to operate than a nice slick PC-12.

Nauga,
who understands utility over appearance
 
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