Was I being unreasonable?

Sorry OP you are dealing with this poop. This is a big reason I went with sole ownership even though the insurmountable (to me) money I spend on this makes no financial sense what so ever. After a nasty divorce I was done with partnership in general ... lol
 
Money, at a guess? You can get a tenth share in a pretty decent airplane for the same money that will get you, well, very very little on your own....

Or priorities?
Most people I know spend all their money on Beer, Cigs and going on vacation. I spend all my cash on airplanes.
Maybe I should joing a club? Then I could buy Beer, Cigs and go on vacation. LOL!
Honestly if I had to share a plane with 10 people I wouldn't be interested in flying.
That's like sharing a woman with 10 guys! When do you get your turn? Or do you even want a turn :cool:
 
I have a friend that loves flying and is a good pilot. He never flies because he don't have a airplane. He has been saying for years he is gonna buy one and is working on it. Funny he drives a brand new Ford F-350 platnum diesel truck loaded. That is a $80,000 truck! $80 new and worth $40 in 3 years!
I told him he needs to drive a $10,000 used truck and buy a airplane. He looked at me with a really confused look!
Guess he wants to show out riding town in a big ugly truck instead of showing off at the airport with a cool plane!
I don't quite understand people.
 
I have a friend that loves flying and is a good pilot. He never flies because he don't have a airplane. He has been saying for years he is gonna buy one and is working on it. Funny he drives a brand new Ford F-350 platnum diesel truck loaded. That is a $80,000 truck! $80 new and worth $40 in 3 years!
I told him he needs to drive a $10,000 used truck and buy a airplane. He looked at me with a really confused look!
Guess he wants to show out riding town in a big ugly truck instead of showing off at the airport with a cool plane!
I don't quite understand people.

It’s mostly about priorities. A colleague of mine keeps telling me I must be super rich to own my own plane and such. Last week he took 3 days off, went to a nice golf course somewhere god know where in a commercial and spent 10k in 3 days and he takes such trips about 4 times a year. This is the same guy who said he wants to be a pilot since he could talk and every time I offer him a ride he comes up some excuse. I have stopped asking him.
 
What is the structure of your "club"? Are you formalized as in an LLC? Is there a lawyer reviewed partnership agreement? Does it spell out responsibilities of each member/owner? If not, you are exposed by the actions of the other members. If someone gets hurt, and the insurance doesn't respond or is inadequate, you are a target. Are you allowed to sell your share to another party? If so, does it require unanimous approval? Lot's of questions. I understand your costs are reasonable but dealing with people like this sucks the life out of a person.

This. Is it unusual for a flying club to ask each member/owner to supply a copy of a current medical certificate, flight review, etc. for the files in order to maintain privilege to fly? Contracts and rules protect everyone, even among friends and acquaintances. If everyone is kosher, it doesn't matter. Contracts and rules protect you when things, hopefully rarely, go wrong, not when they are going well. And when they go wrong, you want maximum protection. Showing good faith in maintaining good operating practices might make the difference in a sketchy insurance claim being supported or denied.
 
Well, experience matters ... lol
Yeah, on that topic.

I know a 53 year-old guy who's dating a 23 year-old girl...

My first reaction was "dude, she's not even old enough to be good in bed yet! Unless, of course, she's a real slut and then...ummmm...nope!"
 
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If they had damaged the plane, it would have been proper to file a police report for all the parties flying the plane without club consent. The insurance would then payed the clubs insurance claim and subrogate the 3 stooges.
 
Yeah, to elaborate a bit more, this is a group I got involved with through getting my PPL. There are probably 50 of us split into 3 different clubs. Everyone is "friends". Some really good pilots, good instructors, and good people. About 6 years ago I was in another club (part of the same overall group) and a kid bent the plane on landing, and through a series of events the club folded. My current club plane was owned by two people at the time, and they opened it up and brought on 8 new owners, for a total of ten. That's when I bought my way in.

Two of the current members - the pilot who got ****ed at me, and the maintenance manager - were the original owners. And though we bought in, I've always been treated like they're doing me a favor letting me fly it.

We collect information annually for insurance: everyone has to give their medical cert date/status, certificate level, total hours and hours in the last 12 months. The maintenance manager takes care of that. He's a business owner and a diligent guy and I have no reason to believe things are not taken care of properly. We get monthly statements showing who flew, and all outstanding balances. So that part is transparent.

We have a lot of trouble collecting payment. As I said, there are no rules, that I know of anyway. So people will go months and in some cases years without paying even their monthly dues. We had one person $3k back, another $2,500. In the last year everyone has gotten back current. But based on this and some other issues (collapsed strut going through at least 4 annuals) I have asked and asked and asked, can we have an owner's meeting? Let's get everyone together and discuss. To no avail.

Where I stand personally is that this is a great, cheap flying option. Not a great cheap flying option, but a great and cheap flying option. I know an IFR 1966 Cherokee isn't much to a lot of folks, but I grew up in Cherokees and short of winning the lottery, owning and flying one is a dream come true. Certainly not something I can afford to do on my own right now. And as I mentioned, there are ten owners, and only three of us (including myself) have flown the airplane more than 5 hours in the last year. So I basically feel like I have my own airplane for dirt cheap, save for the fact that I clearly have no say in anything.

So first step is to request a copy of the LLC agreement and the insurance. I want to see what both say. Because truly I have no idea. I have no idea if I'm even listed as an owner/shareholder.

And then I really have two options. First is to just ignore all this BS and keep flying this airplane. I'm basically not talking to any of these people ever again. I can schedule online, pay my bill online, so screw 'em. Just keep flying and pursue my flying goals in the airplane. Or, based on what I find out, make a choice to sell.

Really this is a situation of everything is great, aw you're my buddy, hey, love ya pal, until you ask me one question I don't like. Which says to me the roots of the relationship are not deep at all. This one stings, I won't lie. I like these people. They've been "friends", mentors, people I fly with, hangar fly with. And then one question and I get a truckload dumped on me. So as far as the relationships go, they're done. I don't do superficial, and I clearly thought there was something here that is not there.

Again, many thanks for the helpful advice. It's appreciated.
 
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I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if I missed a resolution. Below is what I would do. I promise to read on.

I'm the kind of guy that lets things go, until someone treats me the way you are being treated. Then I declare all out war on pecker heads. Bring it all out, in person, face to face. This is unacceptable maintenance. I'd have them wanting to sell out, especially if they can't get medically fit to fly. Not saying I would get anyone in administrative trouble or anything. I simply don't let people get away with being *******s to me.
 
So I basically feel like I have my own airplane for dirt cheap, save for the fact that I clearly have no say in anything.
Then... you shouldn't feel like you have your own airplane. Having a say in everything is almost the whole reason people own airplanes.

That's like saying "I love having my freedom and independence, oh save for the fact that there's bars holding me in and nice prison guards to talk to."
 
Experience in relationships comes with age, and I have enough of each on my side to qualify.

I understand the inexpensive IFR Cherokee has a great draw. I do. Really. But this is what Dr Phil would call a toxic relationship. I see you wanting to make it work but you have a very choppy future ahead. Any little problem will blow up again.

Do yourself a favor and market/sell your share. Consider being a sole owner. The market is full of opportunities right now and ADS compliance (or non) could be a friend.
 
Honestly if I had to share a plane with 10 people I wouldn't be interested in flying.
That's like sharing a woman with 10 guys! When do you get your turn? Or do you even want a turn :cool:
I know of 5 clubs at our local airport. Two of them, I never see anyone fly the planes. Two of them, only one owner flies. One of them is a new club and I'm seeing a lot of activity, but it's a Cessna 150 and they're basically using it as a very cheap way to get training.

So essentially, on most of the clubs I see, you have one guy, getting four or five other guys to pay for their airplanes! They're only paying a fraction of the hangar, insurance, maintenance and getting a whole airplane. When I had 1/4 share of a 175, it was only me flying it. Made it a lot cheaper.
 
It's funny because I've been thinking to myself all along that if I were not the person that this was happening to and someone else was telling me this story, I'd be like, "dude, that is some serious BS, not to mention legal liability you're exposed to."

I think I am going to offer my share for sale and get into one of the other clubs. There are at least two others at the same field. They will be more expensive but if I'm treated better and things are run as a club should be run, I'll be happier. This is essentially a 10-way marriage. And the thing is, a good 6-7 of the people involved have absolutely no idea what's going on. For example, I'm involved in another LLC, and we are required to have an annual shareholder meeting. If the same is true here, then our LLC agreement isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Etc. etc.

Will keep you guys posted.
 
@mryan75

I think you have a descent plane going forward. However, one thing you have missed is calculating your actual cost. If you have all the invoices, go back and calculate your actual hourly costs; including all the special assessments, annuals.... I suspect based on you statements that the actual cost is closer to 125 like the other clubs rental rate.

Tim
 
Let's see...club members behind on payments, sloppy maintenance, and an overt willingness to flout regulations. Is this a group you want to be associated with? From either a safety or legal perspective?
 
It's funny because I've been thinking to myself all along that if I were not the person that this was happening to and someone else was telling me this story, I'd be like, "dude, that is some serious BS, not to mention legal liability you're exposed to."

I think I am going to offer my share for sale and get into one of the other clubs. There are at least two others at the same field. They will be more expensive but if I'm treated better and things are run as a club should be run, I'll be happier. This is essentially a 10-way marriage. And the thing is, a good 6-7 of the people involved have absolutely no idea what's going on. For example, I'm involved in another LLC, and we are required to have an annual shareholder meeting. If the same is true here, then our LLC agreement isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Etc. etc.

Will keep you guys posted.

Not a lawyer, but I think you need to verify you are listed as a "member" of the LLC otherwise you technically have no ownership and no right to sell. If you are listed, read the agreement to see what the restrictions are to sell, if any. If you do ultimately sell, make sure the LLC updates the agreement to remove your name. If you really want out of this club, I think that's the prudent thing to do. By the way, when I was a in a Viking with three other people, one of them was way behind on payments. The group used it to void his share of ownership after trying very hard to work things out with him. We then sold that share to another individual.
 
Let's see...club members behind on payments, sloppy maintenance, and an overt willingness to flout regulations. Is this a group you want to be associated with? From either a safety or legal perspective?
Yeah, it's amazing what people can rationalize, isn't it?
 
Another potential option for you, is to start up your own partnership/club. You might be able to find 3 or 4 others that want to go in on an equity flying club where you can ensure the bylaws are adhered to. Just a thought.
 
I think I am going to offer my share for sale and get into one of the other clubs.

Not a lawyer, but I think you need to verify you are listed as a "member" of the LLC otherwise you technically have no ownership and no right to sell.

And now that you pizzed off the two principals, you might find out that they never "updated" the paperwork. That would bite, wouldn't it.

Keep us posted as to how this goes. Might be worthwhile to make this a sticky so others can understand what can happen when they enter a business deal without reading the fine print and verifying the transaction.
 
So, we don't have any bylaws. We are using another club's operating agreement "as a template". Also, on the insurance policy, our aircraft is listed as being principally located at another airport. Meanwhile we have a hangar with a lease agreement at a different airport than that listed in the insurance policy. I'm not sure if a detail such as where it is "principally based" would invalidate the policy. If so, we. Are. Screwed.

The other thing: I asked for a copy of the LLC agreement and got a copy of another club's operating agreement. But there is an LLC agreement for our LLC, regardless of the operating agreement, no? In other words, an LLC document and an operating agreement are two different things, no? The operating agreement "template" from the other club is a legal document listing rights and responsibilities, uses of the plane, rules about payment, etc., and at the end lists the named owners. But even that is separate and apart from any LLC document, correct?

So either we have no document with owners listed on it, or we do (the LLC agreement) and I haven't been given a copy of it. Which would beg the question, why? Because if my name isn't on that LLC agreement, I'm not legally an owner.

What a mess. I will freely admit, this is why I didn't ask any questions. I obviously didn't want to know the answers.
 
So either we have no document with owners listed on it, or we do (the LLC agreement) and I haven't been given a copy of it. Which would beg the question, why? Because if my name isn't on that LLC agreement, I'm not legally an owner.

Which might also mean, practically speaking you've just been donating your $$ all this time to upgrade and maintain someone else's plane.

Good luck.
 
What should you have done...I don't know.

I do know that a partnership where you can't have a frank discussion about things is already in danger. If no other reason, get out now. Offer to let them buy you out, but I'd get out and look for something different.
 
If no other reason, get out now. Offer to let them buy you out, but I'd get out and look for something different.

Sadly, it sounds like there's nothing to get out of...

OP: As long as you still have all of your invoices, cancelled checks, etc. you may want to pursue a small claims court action to recoup some of your expenses...
 
Sadly, it sounds like there's nothing to get out of...

OP: As long as you still have all of your invoices, cancelled checks, etc. you may want to pursue a small claims court action to recoup some of your expenses...
We're not there yet. The people may honor their deal still and buy out the OP, even if there is no legal means to do so.
 
We're not there yet. The people may honor their deal still and buy out the OP, even if there is no legal means to do so.
What I'm trying to get now is a copy of the LLC agreement. I'm just looking for any piece of paper with my name on it.
 
So I should be getting a look at the corporate book tomorrow.

Insurance-wise, our policy states that the aircraft is "primarily based" at airport A. It is completely, totally and in every way one could conjure up not based at airport A, but rather at airport B. Could a detail like that bite you in a claim situation? In other words could the insurance company say "The aircraft is not based where you say it is, therefore we ain't paying"?

My only thought as to why a detail like that might matter on our end is because it maybe cheaper to insure it based a smaller airport than a larger one, for example? I just can't think of any other reason why it might be advantageous of us to fib on that point.
 
I would think that would be a minor detail that only gets updated at renewal time. Was it ever based a airport A? But what do I know, I've never insured a plane.

I ALWAYS tell the truth when they ask how many miles I plan to drive my car, though, just in case that silly question carries some actual meaning.
 
Please keep us updated, this is very interesting.

Sounds like you may be a patsy to the "good ol boys" club. "Hey Gene, let's get some other suckers to help pay for a new engine and avionics in our plane, then stick it to em"
 
It is completely, totally and in every way one could conjure up not based at airport A, but rather at airport B. Could a detail like that bite you in a claim situation?

I'm not a lawyer, and you want to ask one for a reliable answer, but my guess is... it depends.

If the insurance company can make a case that you (all) deliberately misrepresented the home airport, especially if that is in some way relevant to a claim, they might well have a basis to deny payment. Say your mechanic sets it on fire in your hangar accidentally, or someone runs into someone else's Lanceair while taxiing to or from your hangar, which wouldn't have happened if your home base was where you said it was. If you go to court over an incident, my guess is that your intent and how relevant the airport is to the claim will be important.

If you can make the case that "oops, it used to be and we forgot to update you," and the home airport is irrelevant to the specific incident anyway, you might be ok.

On the LLC front -- paperwork for the creation and definition of the LLC should be recorded, I expect, so you should be able to get a copy from the recorder's office.

If your current partners are willing to buy you out amicably, I would jump at that under the circumstances, especially if you can't determine for certain that you are a named owner as you should be. If you aren't, or can't prove you are, you may have trouble selling because a buyer will likely want the right paperwork.

If you in fact aren't listed anywhere, it's fairly clear you should be, and you may have good grounds for a court case against the LLC for negligence (or fraud, if it was knowing), and you might be able to use that to get the relevant documents corrected -- but ask a lawyer. Hopefully that won't be necessary, because won't that be fun.
 
Have you sat down and spoken with them yet? You may be getting the vapors over nothing. The guy might really have his medical and you might owe him an apology. Sit down and talk to them face to face.
 
So a few updates: I get a look at the corporate book tomorrow. I in no way think they are purposely trying to screw me, but I would like to know if my name is indeed on the corporate agreement.

Beyond that there are just a lot of open questions. We don't have any bylaws or an operating agreement of any kind. Which is just nonsense. The one we are using as a "template" says we need to vote on a maintenance manager and a business manager, neither of which we have done; and that each would be compensated $100 per month or 1 flight hour per month for their work. Now, the guy who does the management of things does a great job - he keeps the monthly accounting, pays all the bills (I have no reason to believe they aren't paid), and I have no problem with him being compensated. But we were never asked, there was never a vote. And I'm pretty sure (based on his negative balance on the monthly accounting sheet) that he is indeed being compensated. And another thing: equipment upgrades require the consent of the majority of the members in the form of a vote. We've done new radios, the 650, and ADS-B, and never had a single vote about anything (partly because we've never had a meeting I'd imagine). We just get a bill.

So we're using this other club's operating agreement as a template, and we are following exactly none of it.

Lastly, I wrote the member who flipped out and apologized. I just like to smooth the feathers, as it were. I got a response back which was mostly positive, but was explaining how the other pilot could be PIC. Now, the other owner is on Basic Med and had a heart attack a few months ago. So he can't fly under basic med. Not only that, he's over 80 years old, and our insurance policy (which I just read) says pilots over 80 need to be accompanied by a CFI. So strike 2. Not only that, our insurance policy specifically says you have to have a "medical certificate". No mention of Basic Med. But I'm not going to argue. (This could explain another mystery - a few weeks ago, when the one pilot told me they didn't have a medical - the two of them went flying in our airplane. Now, I know that neither of them were legal - one had no medical, the other had Basic Med, but had just had a heart attack, so no joy. They likely THOUGHT he could be PIC because he was on Basic Med, but that's not the case).

Anyway, I look at the corporate book tomorrow, and if my name is in it I'm going to feel a whole lot better. If not, I'm not going to be happy.
 
What should you have done...I don't know.
I do know that a partnership where you can't have a frank discussion about things is already in danger. If no other reason, get out now. Offer to let them buy you out, but I'd get out and look for something different.
There may be no 'out' from which to exit. I question whether the LLC exists at all. This might be a place to try to find out https://llc-made-easy.com/free-llc-name-search.html
 
<snip snip> We don't have any bylaws or an operating agreement of any kind. Which is just nonsense. The one we are using as a "template" says we need to vote on a maintenance manager and a business manager, neither of which we have done; and that each would be compensated $100 per month or 1 flight hour per month for their work. Now, the guy who does the management of things does a great job - he keeps the monthly accounting, pays all the bills (I have no reason to believe they aren't paid), and I have no problem with him being compensated. But we were never asked, there was never a vote. And I'm pretty sure (based on his negative balance on the monthly accounting sheet) that he is indeed being compensated.
But you got into the club after it was already established so I imagine these rules were already in place and by agreeing to join you agreed to the ways things are handled. I wouldn't expect them to hold a vote on their operating practices every time a new member joins, although I would expect you would need to agree to their current Ts & Cs, right? Sorta like by using my website you agree to allow me to snatch your info using cookies...
 
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